Can 500+ Eyewitnesses Be Wrong?

Radar · Sep 7, 2005

Without physical evidence it is all hearsay. No matter how many witness' there were.

greatcalgarian · Sep 7, 2005

AV1611 said:
First of all, Kirby is not the sum total of scholarship. Thus my 'contempt' for Kirby is not synonymous with 'contempt' for scholarship.

Second of all, acceptance of 2nd Peter into the New Testament canon meeting with great resistance in the early church is fine with me; as long as it wasn't met with great resistance in the early Church.

Third, where the Catholic New American Bible differs with the King James Bible, the Catholic New American Bible is wrong.

Fourth, where modern scholars differ with the King James Bible, modern scholars are wrong.

Fifth, Peter S. Ruckman calls Origen a 'walking, barefoot, ***tard' for reasons I don't want to get into.

King James Version is the final authoritative inspired (or may be written) by God:bounce :jiggy:

:biglaugh:

greatcalgarian · Sep 7, 2005

AV1611 said:
Neither did I. Paul wrote in Koine Greek, and God eventually translated it into English.

Did God use the microsoft word processor and Dell computer to do the translation? And I have to assume that it is only into King James:162: :clap

greatcalgarian · Sep 7, 2005

AV1611 said:
Forget it. I don't know Greek, and even if I did, if you can't handle the English, you can't handle the Greek.

And, IMHO, it doesn't apply to the Greek version. They had their own literary idiosyncracies, I'm sure.

There are lots of Greek expert in this forum, perhaps you should ask them to help you:bounce

michel · Sep 7, 2005

Fluffy said:
Look the crunch point in your argument, for me at least AV1611, is that you are not providing any good reason to treat the Bible differently from any other book. Why should I treat it any differently from a book that I could write claiming another to be the son of a different God? I know I would be lying but how do I know that Paul wasn't lying either?

Here's the thing, Fluffy. The Bible is a very unique book, it was written:

over a period of 1500 years
by 40 men who hardly knew each other
on three continents
in three languages
by a variety of occupations (herdsmen to kings)
for a variety of reasons
in a variety of circumstances (on the run, as well as sitting at home

And yet, there are no contradictions in doctrine, or the way they describe God, or the things that God tells them to do, or anything.

Now that's quite an accomplishment. Try that today and see what happens, even super-simplifying it.

put just 5 people that do know each other in separate rooms
tell each one to write a chapter of a murder mystery
assign the chapters to each individual so they know where they are in the story
then compare the final product

It would be total gibberish. A chaotic mess with no continuity.

But not so with God's word. You have total agreement on every page.

No other writing in history even comes close!

And that's just ONE point. There are more. Such as mentioning empires that scientists swore didn't exist (to wit, the Hittites and the Medes). Calling a person by name (Josiah in 1 Kings 13:2) 340 years before he was born.

Mentioning empires that would dominate the world, when at the time, the empire was still in its infancy.

And I didn't even touch on the prophecies concerning Jesus.

You have to admit, that's much more than coincidence!

michel · Sep 7, 2005

Radar said:
Without physical evidence it is all hearsay. No matter how many witness' there were.

I got the evidence right here on my bookshelf. I even have a book that says Christopher Columbus sailed here from Portugal in 1492. I believe it, too.

JerryL · Sep 7, 2005

And yet, there are no contradictions in doctrine, or the way they describe God, or the things that God tells them to do, or anything.

Of course it's contrary... starting with Genesis and working forward. google "biblical contradictions".

Now that's quite an accomplishment. Try that today and see what happens, even super-simplifying it.

So, what you are saying, is that Christopher Tolkin's sequals to the Dune saga are total gibberish and conflict with Frank's books? I don't see that as true at all.

And that's just ONE point. There are more. Such as mentioning empires that scientists swore didn't exist (to wit, the Hittites and the Medes). Calling a person by name (Josiah in 1 Kings 13:2) 340 years before he was born.

I've got a thread on Bible prophecy. You couldn't offer squat. Feel free to take this up there.

painted wolf · Sep 7, 2005

hmm...
my faith was deveolped over a period of 10,000 years
by people from three contenents
with over 1,000 languages
over 1,000 nations
in a variety of occupations from priests to farmers to hunter gatherers
in a variety of cercumstances... from within thier temples, out on the artic ice, or in thier lodges.. on the run, in war or in peace.

and yet all the native religions have the same core of faith, regardless of cultural twists and takes on specific myths... we all discribe creator the same, we all hold the same ideals sacred.

I don't eaven touch the prophecies that my people made and that came true...
if it makes your religion true then surely it must work for mine as well.

the increasingly inherant problem with tit for tat justification for a faith.

wa:do

michel · Sep 8, 2005

painted wolf said:
my faith was deveolped over a period of 10,000 years

No it wasn't. The Earth has only been in existence circa 6000, as I showed in other posts.

Your people have only been around for 4355 years (assuming the Flood occurred in 2350 bc.) - the same length of time as my people have (i.e. the Japhethites)

by people from three contenents
with over 1,000 languages
over 1,000 nations
in a variety of occupations from priests to farmers to hunter gatherers
in a variety of cercumstances... from within thier temples, out on the artic ice, or in thier lodges.. on the run, in war or in peace.

That's nice, but re-read what I said. I'm talking about a single Book written from these sources that has no dis-unity of doctrine, despite the fact that the authors wrote independent of each other.

and yet all the native religions have the same core of faith, regardless of cultural twists and takes on specific myths... we all discribe creator the same, we all hold the same ideals sacred.

Again that's nice, but you're leaving too much out. Did many of your authors die a martyr's death? Were they hounded relentlessly by their own people - even to the point of one wanting to take his own life? Was their authority challenged by their own brother and sister? Did one wrestle with the Creator of the Universe in hand-to-hand combat?

I don't eaven touch the prophecies that my people made and that came true...
if it makes your religion true then surely it must work for mine as well.

If even one prophecy failed, what was done about it? My Creator has a 100% efficiency rating, and said if even one failed to occur, the prophet is a fake.

the increasingly inherant problem with tit for tat justification for a faith.

Not even close.

michel · Sep 8, 2005

greatcalgarian said:
There are lots of Greek expert in this forum, perhaps you should ask them to help you:bounce

No thanks --- the Greeks have too high a margin-of-error ratio. I'll take it in English any day. Where the King James Bible differs from the Greek translations, the Greek translations are wrong.

Jayhawker Soule · Sep 8, 2005

AV1611 said:
I'll take it in English any day. Where the King James Bible differs from the Greek translations, the Greek translations are wrong.

That is a worthless and baseless assertion. What do you do when the Greek translation corresponds to a DSS Hebrew 'vorlage'? Presumably, you'll do exactly what you've done elsewhere - steadfastedly refuse to allow evidence, reason, and/or logic to interfere with willful ignorance.

michel · Sep 8, 2005

painted wolf said:
hmm...
my faith was deveolped over a period of 10,000 years
by people from three contenents
with over 1,000 languages
over 1,000 nations
in a variety of occupations from priests to farmers to hunter gatherers
in a variety of cercumstances... from within thier temples, out on the artic ice, or in thier lodges.. on the run, in war or in peace.

and yet all the native religions have the same core of faith, regardless of cultural twists and takes on specific myths... we all discribe creator the same, we all hold the same ideals sacred.

I don't eaven touch the prophecies that my people made and that came true...
if it makes your religion true then surely it must work for mine as well.

the increasingly inherant problem with tit for tat justification for a faith.

wa:do

When yousay you don't touch the prophecies, do you mean you don't want to look, or that you would not share them here?

Radar · Sep 8, 2005

AV1611 said:
I got the evidence right here on my bookshelf. I even have a book that says Christopher Columbus sailed here from Portugal in 1492. I believe it, too.

Written testimony in a book, on a sheet of paper, found on a scroll, carved in a tablet is just hearsay written. All are wrothless with out physical evidence or proof. Muslims have a book but you don't follow that faith. LDS/Mormons have a book and you don't follow that faith. Jehova witnesses' have book you don't follow that faith.

So written words never can be classified as evidence, it is testimonies, statements, and hearsay. There is no physical evidence to support your words.

michel · Sep 8, 2005

Radar said:
There is no physical evidence to support your words.

Yes there is ... you're standing on it ... Psalm 19:1-6

Radar · Sep 8, 2005

AV1611 said:
Yes there is ... you're standing on it ... Psalm 19:1-6

You're joke! You never have anything intelligent to add. You keep going back to: because it is written in the bible. Again these are just written words.

Psalm 19:1-6
1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. 2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. 3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. 4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, 5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. 6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

And this proves what? AV1611 you are a joke:biglaugh:

cardero · Sep 8, 2005

The problem with the Bible is that there is no way to corraborate the evidence and no way to follow-up an investigation with eyewitnesses.

Darkdale · Sep 8, 2005

carrdero said:
The problem with the Bible is that there is no way to corraborate the evidence and no way to follow-up an investigation with eyewitnesses.

Which begs the question, why is "biblical truth" even a subject for serious debate?

JerryL · Sep 8, 2005

Deut said:
That is a worthless and baseless assertion. What do you do when the Greek translation corresponds to a DSS Hebrew 'vorlage'? Presumably, you'll do exactly what you've done elsewhere - steadfastedly refuse to allow evidence, reason, and/or logic to interfere with willful ignorance.

Maybe AV is actually a non-Christian who is tryign to discredit Christianity by such an inept position?

Radar · Sep 8, 2005

JerryL said:
Maybe AV is actually a non-Christian who is tryign to discredit Christianity by such an inept position?

I could believe that!!!!

Mr Spinkles · Sep 8, 2005

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