What Day was Jesus Crucified?

Poisonshady313 · Dec 18, 2010

And if the crucifixion happened during the 15th, which is like a sabbath, then it wouldn't have made sense whatsoever to worry about being taken off the cross before the sabbath... it already would have been sabbath.

smokydot · Dec 18, 2010

Poisonshady313 said:
Any new timelines? any more questions?

This one is looking good:

Day of Preparation for Passover/Unleavened Bread - Tuesday, Nisan 14

Passover Meal (Mk 14:12-18) - Tuesday evening, Nisan 15

Crucifixion - Wednesday, Nisan 15, annual Sabbath of Unleavened Bread

Days in Tomb - Wednesday evening, Nisan 16, spring Firstfruits (Lev23: 9-15), through Saturday Sabbath evening, Nisan 19

Women arrive at tomb - Sunday, Nisan 19

So why wouldn't the women go to the tomb on Thursday instead of Sunday to annoint the body?
Still working on that one.

Regarding the sign of Jonah thing, and three days and three nights.
The sign of Jonah was about the resurrection, not necessarily about the number of days in the tomb.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2279860-post787.html

Dirty Penguin · Dec 18, 2010

smokydot said:
But the Jews didn't actually nail him to the cross, so Jesus followers had no control over his crucifixion on the annual Sabbath of Unleavened Bread.
However, the followers of Jesus did have control over him not remaining on the cross for the next day's annual Sabbath of Firstfruits.
So at this point to me, the chronology could be as follows:

Day of Preparation for Passover/Unleavened Bread - Tuesday, Nisan 14
Passover Meal (Mk 14:12-18) - Tuesday evening, Nisan 15
Crucifixion - Wednesday, Nisan 15, annual Sabbath of Unleavened Bread
Days in Tomb - Wednesday evening, Nisan 16, annual Sabbath of First Fruits to Saturday Sabbath evening, Nisan 19

If the Jews were allowed to lead their ox or donkey out of the stall and to water on a Sabbath (Lk 13:15), or to pull their donkey or ox
out of a well on the Sabbath (Lk 14:5), then certainly they were allowed to take Jesus down from the cross and entomb him on a Sabbath.

But the question remains: why did the women not complete the burial preparation on Friday, instead of waiting until Sunday?

Friday would have been a Day of Preparation for the Saturday Sabbath.
Would there even have been time to prepare the ointments, travel to the tomb, and anoint the body before sundown, in addition to all the other preparations required for the next day's Saturday Sabbath?
There probably was time only to prepare the ointments, considering all the other preparations required of the day, meaning they had to wait until Sunday before they could go to the tomb?

Any reason why this chronology doesn't work?

Regardless. The Passover Preparation and the Passover itself, as described in your bible, is exactly how I listed it in post 407 and other post as well. Alas, Jews don't view it the way you listed it above...(see http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2279786-post779.html)

fallingblood · Dec 18, 2010

I think the easiest timeline is that there are actually two timelines. One in John. One in the synoptics.

John is Jesus is killed on the day of preparation for the Passover. According to John, this was a Friday. That Friday would be the 14th. Jesus is taken from the cross, still on the 14th. He is put in the tomb, still on the 14th. Then comes the Sabbath, which according to John, is also the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, or Passover. This would be the 15th (Friday at sunset, to Saturday at Sunset). Then on Sunday, the 16th, the women go to the Tomb.

The synoptics are basically the same, but each day is pushed back one. Jesus is killed on the 15th, taken from the cross and buried on the same day. Sabbath pasts, and then the women come to the tomb, on the 17th.

Now obviously, there is no three days. And there are some problems. First, there are two timelines.

Harmonious · Dec 18, 2010

smokydot said:
Days in Tomb - Wednesday evening, Nisan 16, spring Firstfruits (Lev23: 9-15), through Saturday Sabbath evening, Nisan 19

Right. I looked it up. It is NOT a festival of first fruits, Smoky. Yes, the words say "...You must bring an omer of your first reaping to the Cohen." However, it is a GRAIN offering. Such an offering would only be brought during the daytime. (However, we do COUNT the Omer at night.)

And, it's still not a festival of its own. It is an extra commandment for the second day of Passover.

First FRUITS are offered on Shavu'ot.

Poisonshady313 · Dec 18, 2010

smokydot said:
This one is looking good:

Day of Preparation for Passover/Unleavened Bread - Tuesday, Nisan 14

Passover Meal (Mk 14:12-18) - Tuesday evening, Nisan 15

Crucifixion - Wednesday, Nisan 15, annual Sabbath of Unleavened Bread

Days in Tomb - Wednesday evening, Nisan 16, spring Firstfruits (Lev23: 9-15), through Saturday Sabbath evening, Nisan 19

Women arrive at tomb - Sunday, Nisan 19

No good. The 16th is nothing special. Lev 23:9-15 describes the 7 week period from Passover till Shavuot. It certainly isn't a sabbath or holy convocation.

And Sunday morning is still Nisan 18.

Dirty Penguin · Dec 18, 2010

smokydot said:
This one is looking good:

Day of Preparation for Passover/Unleavened Bread - Tuesday, Nisan 14

Passover Meal (Mk 14:12-18) - Tuesday evening, Nisan 15

Crucifixion - Wednesday, Nisan 15, annual Sabbath of Unleavened Bread

Days in Tomb - Wednesday evening, Nisan 16, spring Firstfruits (Lev23: 9-15), through Saturday Sabbath evening, Nisan 19

Women arrive at tomb - Sunday, Nisan 19

So why wouldn't the women go to the tomb on Thursday instead of Sunday to annoint the body?
Still working on that one.

Regarding the sign of Jonah thing, and three days and three nights.
The sign of Jonah was about the resurrection, not necessarily about the number of days in the tomb.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2279860-post787.html

Let's step back and let's look at what the 1rst of the gospels (Mark) says. Now remember every other gospel that comes after this one is borrowing from Mark, maybe with the exception of John.

Mark 15:39
And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.

Mark 15:42
And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,

We can clearly see that he was put on the cross before the day of Preparation for the Passover. I don't have a problem with that. Mark says he was pronounced dead right before the start of the day of Preparation of the Passover. His body wasn't removed until sometime during the day of Preparation for the Passover.

Mark 15:43
Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus.

Mark 15:45
And when he knew [it] of the centurion, he gave the body to Joseph.

The body was allowed to be removed after Pilate received confirmation of death. Joseph takes the body and wraps it in the linen and seals the body in the cave. The next day is the Sabbath. This would have to have been a (Friday evening - Saturday evening) Sabbath because of the following.

Mark 14:47
And Mary Magdalene and Mary [the mother] of Joses beheld where he was laid.

Mark 16:1
And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the [mother] of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

Mark 16:2
And very early in the morning the first [day] of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.

This was done sometime from (Saturday evening) which would have been at the end of the Sabbath, which is now considered the first day of the week. The arrived early in the morning the first day of the week which we know to be Sunday morning. Now at this point they discover there is no body.

Every way we look at he he died before the Preparation of the Passover, according to the writer of Mark, removed on the day of Preparation of Passover, the body was wrapped and sealed in the tomb that same day and the Passover, according to the writer of Mark, fell on the Sabbath day......and the women came to the tomb and discovered the body was gone during sunrise on Sunday morning. If we do the math there's no way he was in the tomb for 3 days and 3 nights according to the understanding of Jewish days and nights. The other gospels don't help either....

smokydot · Dec 19, 2010

Harmonious said:
Right. I looked it up. It is NOT a festival of first fruits, Smoky. Yes, the words say "...You must bring an omer of your first reaping to the Cohen." However, it is a GRAIN offering. Such an offering would only be brought during the daytime. (However, we do COUNT the Omer at night.)
And, it's still not a festival of its own. It is an extra commandment for the second day of Passover.
First FRUITS are offered on Shavu'ot.

Thanks, Harmonious.

First, in the farming community, the first fruits of a harvest refer to any kind of harvest. . .it doesn't have to be fruit.

Leviticus legislates three harvest feasts, the first two at which offerings of the first fruits of harvest were to be made.

1) first fruits of barley harvest - Nisan 16, spring
2) first fruits of wheat harvest - Feast of Weeks - Sivan 6, summer (Ex 34:22)
3) celebration of wheat and fruit (grape) harvest - Feast of Tabernacles - Tishri 15-21 - fall (Deut 17:13)

Second, I'm not convinced that after the destruction of Jerusalem about 35 years after Jesus was crucified, the later restoration of the feasts was not somewhat abbreviated. All males were required to go to Jerusalem to celebrate the three following feasts. But without a Jerusalem or Temple, the harvest feasts could well have been abbbreviated
--a) to just one celebration, of the fruit harvest on Sivan 6, which was really the date for the second first fruits of the wheat harvest in the summer,
--b) instead of celebrating the two feasts of first fruits, where the first was on Nisan 16, at the barley harvest in the spring, and instead of
--c) celebrating the two harvests of wheat and fruit (grape) in the fall on Tishri 15-21.

I'm not convinced the restored practices were identical to those during the life of Jesus.

That being the case, the gospel accounts may not be able to be reconciled with the Jewish practices of today, and will have to be sorted out on their own terms,
instead of in terms of current Jewish practice. That is the way I will proceed.

Likewise, the sign of Jonah was the resurrection. I don't think the main point of the sign is the number of days Jesus would be in the tomb. See the signs in:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2279860-post787.html

smokydot · Dec 19, 2010

Poisonshady313 said:
No good. The 16th is nothing special. Lev 23:9-15 describes the 7 week period from Passover till Shavuot. It certainly isn't a sabbath or holy convocation.

And Sunday morning is still Nisan 18.

Tues evening to Wed evening - 15 - Passover, crucifixion
Wed evening to Thurs evening - 16 - in tomb
Thurs evening to Fri evening - 17 - in tomb
Fri evening to Sat evening - 18 - in tomb
Sat evening to Sun evening - 19 - women arrive at tomb Sun morning.

smokydot · Dec 19, 2010

Dirty Penguin said:
Let's step back and let's look at what the 1rst of the gospels (Mark) says. Now remember every other gospel that comes after this one is borrowing from Mark, maybe with the exception of John.

Mark 15:39
And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.

Mark 15:42
And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,

We can clearly see that he was put on the cross before the day of Preparation for the Passover. I don't have a problem with that. Mark says he was pronounced dead right before the start of the day of Preparation of the Passover. His body wasn't removed until sometime during the day of Preparation for the Passover.

Mark also says he ate the Passover meal. Mk 14:12-17.

The fly in the ointment here is the term "Day of Preparation for Passover."
To what date is Mark really referring here?

Mark 15:43
Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus.

Mark 15:45
And when he knew [it] of the centurion, he gave the body to Joseph.

The body was allowed to be removed after Pilate received confirmation of death. Joseph takes the body and wraps it in the linen and seals the body in the cave. The next day is the Sabbath. This would have to have been a (Friday evening - Saturday evening) Sabbath because of the following.

Mark 14:47
And Mary Magdalene and Mary [the mother] of Joses beheld where he was laid.

Mark 16:1
And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the [mother] of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

Mark 16:2
And very early in the morning the first [day] of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.

This was done sometime from (Saturday evening) which would have been at the end of the Sabbath, which is now considered the first day of the week. The arrived early in the morning the first day of the week which we know to be Sunday morning. Now at this point they discover there is no body.

Every way we look at he he died before the Preparation of the Passover, according to the writer of Mark, removed on the day of Preparation of Passover, the body was wrapped and sealed in the tomb that same day and the Passover, according to the writer of Mark, fell on the Sabbath day......and the women came to the tomb and discovered the body was gone during sunrise on Sunday morning. If we do the math there's no way he was in the tomb for 3 days and 3 nights according to the understanding of Jewish days and nights. The other gospels don't help either....

Poisonshady313 · Dec 19, 2010

smokydot said:
Tues evening to Wed evening - 15 - Passover, crucifixion
Wed evening to Thurs evening - 16 - in tomb
Thurs evening to Fri evening - 17 - in tomb
Fri evening to Sat evening - 18 - in tomb
Sat evening to Sun evening - 19 - women arrive at tomb Sun morning.

I told you already. Passover can never start on a Tuesday evening. It has been that way since the Babylonian Exile.

Poisonshady313 · Dec 19, 2010

smokydot said:
Thanks, Harmonious.

First, in the farming community, the first fruits of a harvest refer to any kind of harvest. . .it doesn't have to be fruit.

Leviticus legislates three harvest feasts, the first two at which offerings of the first fruits of harvest were to be made.

1) first fruits of barley harvest - Nisan 16, spring
2) first fruits of wheat harvest - Feast of Weeks - Sivan 6, summer (Ex 34:22)
3) celebration of wheat and fruit (grape) harvest - Feast of Tabernacles - Tishri 15-21 - fall (Deut 17:13)

Check Leviticus again... There is no feast for Nisan 16. A description is given of the offering that is to be made on that day, and on every day for the next 7 weeks. But there is no feast for Nisan 16.

Second, I'm not convinced that after the destruction of Jerusalem about 35 years after Jesus was crucified, the later restoration of the feasts was not somewhat abbreviated
--a) to just one celebration, of the fruit harvest on Sivan 6, which was really the date for the second first fruits of the wheat harvest in the summer,
--b) instead of celebrating the two feasts of first fruits, where the first was on Nisan 16, at the barley harvest in the spring, and instead of
--c) celebrating the two harvests of wheat and fruit (grape) in the fall on Tishri 15-21.

I'm not convinced the restored practices were identical to those during the life of Jesus.

That being the case, the gospel accounts may not be able to be reconciled with the Jewish practices of today, and will have to be sorted out on their own terms,
instead of in terms of current Jewish practice. That is the way I will proceed.

Do not go down that road. If there's anybody more knowledgeable than Harmonious about Jewish practices during the life of Jesus on this forum, it's Levite (cuz he's a Rabbi). That's about it.

You've already demonstrated a severe lack of knowledge regarding how Judaism works. On this subject, you'll learn from Harmonious, not the other way around.

Harmonious · Dec 19, 2010

smokydot said:
Thanks, Harmonious.

First, in the farming community, the first fruits of a harvest refer to any kind of harvest. . .it doesn't have to be fruit.

Hmm...

Now, I'm getting curious if you are REALLY interested in this, or if you are just working to drag my head.

Leviticus legislates three harvest feasts, the first two at which offerings of the first fruits of harvest were to be made.

1) first fruits of barley harvest - Nisan 16, spring
2) first fruits of wheat harvest - Feast of Weeks - Sivan 6, summer (Ex 34:22)
3) celebration of wheat and fruit (grape) harvest - Feast of Tabernacles - Tishri 15-21 - fall (Deut 17:13)

You know, Smoky, it helps to know how these countings correlate to commandments that Jews had to (and still) carry out. That way, they aren't just abstract verses that have no real meaning.

On Nissan 16, it wasn't a festival. It was a time of counting. According to Jewish law, because of the verses you pointed out, Jews are not allowed to eat "new" grain, or grain harvested after Nissan 16, until it is a year old. (This is particularly important in Israel, but Jewish farmers in America have decided to make it work, here.)

I don't know if you have seen signs in Jewish neighborhoods, saying "We sell Yashan," or "We sell Yoshon". It refers to grains being counted and timed in this fashion, from year to year. That is what this is referring to.

As far as the First Fruits... It was a gift that was brought to the Cohanim. (You see, they didn't have land, and otherwise couldn't sustain themselves. The gifts that God directed the Jews to give the Cohanim is how they could count on sustenance.)

In addition to simply bringing that gift of first fruit, it came with a declaration, that Jews had to make. That declaration is in Deuteronomy, 26:5-10:

5. And you shall call out and say before the Lord, your God, "An Aramean [sought to] destroy my forefather, and he went down to Egypt and sojourned there with a small number of people, and there, he became a great, mighty, and numerous nation.

6. And the Egyptians treated us cruelly and afflicted us, and they imposed hard labor upon us.

7. So we cried out to the Lord, God of our fathers, and the Lord heard our voice and saw our affliction, our toil, and our oppression.

8. And the Lord brought us out from Egypt with a strong hand and with an outstretched arm, with great awe, and with signs and wonders.

9. And He brought us to this place, and He gave us this land, a land flowing with milk and honey.

10. And now, behold, I have brought the first of the fruit of the ground which you, O Lord, have given to me." Then, you shall lay it before the Lord, your God, and prostrate yourself before the Lord, your God.

And for the Jews (and perhaps Noachides) reading along, that these verse I listed should sound familiar. They are, because these verses that are expounded upon in the Passover Haggadah. This paragraph is expounded upon, because it is a first person declaration of having the need to GO to Egypt, to have the need to be saved.

And Sukkot, the Feast of Tabernacles, is something different altogether.

Second, I'm not convinced that after the destruction of Jerusalem about 35 years after Jesus was crucified, the later restoration of the feasts was not somewhat abbreviated
--a) to just one celebration, of the fruit harvest on Sivan 6, which was really the date for the second first fruits of the wheat harvest in the summer,
--b) instead of celebrating the two feasts of first fruits, where the first was on Nisan 16, at the barley harvest in the spring, and instead of
--c) celebrating the two harvests of wheat and fruit (grape) in the fall on Tishri 15-21.

That's not really so surprising, as you have no idea WHAT those dates were and how they were at all relevant to Jewish life. Therefore, you don't understand that these "feasts" were NOT abbreviated. You just don't know what they were.

You never celebrated them, or applied the dates to your own life, or really had need to. The only thing you really use them for is attempting to figure out the days when Jesus died, because the authors of the gospels were using terms that they figured would sound good to audiences who didn't know better.

I, who apply said laws to my life, understand what they once were, and hope they will be again.

I'm not convinced the restored practices were identical to those during the life of Jesus.

That being the case, the gospel accounts may not be able to be reconciled with the Jewish practices of today, and will have to be sorted out on their own terms,
instead of in terms of current Jewish practice. That is the way I will proceed.

Proceed as you will.

I just told you what the dates in Jewish law are. You can choose to ignore what I've said, as you will. But if you really want to know the significance of the above dates to Jews, both in Jesus' time and now, you would heed what I've said.

If you choose to ignore it, you are free to live in the fantasy land that you've created for yourself that has nothing at all to do with how Jews lived, now, then, or at any other time.

Dirty Penguin · Dec 19, 2010

smokydot said:
Mark also says he ate the Passover meal. Mk 14:12-17.

The fly in the ointment here is the term "Day of Preparation for Passover."
To what date is Mark really referring here?

Not sure what that writer meant there. There's no fly in the ointment. Mark is clear as two what "preparation" he's talking about given it shows Yeshua expiration right before the preparation happened and his body being removed and laid in the tomb before the start of the (Friday-Saturday) Sabbath. We know that to be the Sabbath considering the women arrived at the tomb during sunrise on Sunday (1st day of the week) and discovered there was no body. Whether or not they held multiple Passovers, not sure why, means very little considering the actual Passover surrounding the crucifixion is right before the Sabbath. He was taken down on the Preparation day before the Sabbath and the first day of the week after the Sabbath the women are at the tomb....

smokydot · Dec 19, 2010

Poisonshady313 said:
I told you already. Passover can never start on a Tuesday evening. It has been that way since the Babylonian Exile.

I'm not wed to that day of the week for Passover, that's just a consideration at this time.

smokydot · Dec 19, 2010

Poisonshady313 said:
Check Leviticus again... There is no feast for Nisan 16. A description is given of the offering that is to be made on that day, and on every day for the next 7 weeks. But there is no feast for Nisan 16.

True, but sacrifices were required on that day, with the spring time presentation of the first fruits of the barley harvest.

Do not go down that road. If there's anybody more knowledgeable than Harmonious about Jewish practices during the life of Jesus on this forum, it's Levite (cuz he's a Rabbi). That's about it.

I appreciate their knowledge, but don't you think I should go down the road to which the following facts lead:
1) Levitical law regarding the special days,
2) destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple,
3) impossibility of all males presenting themselves to the Lord as required on the three feasts of Unleavened Bread, Weeks, and Tabernacles (Ex 23:14-17, 34:22-23), and
4) the differences between current Jewish practices and the Levitical laws regarding them.

The above facts show me that
1) the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple ended the practice of observing these three feasts in Jerusalem, as required,
2) the practice of them could not be restored to their original observances in Jerusalem,
3) the practice of these feasts today differs from their practices in the time of Christ when there was a Jerusalem and a Temple,
4) I cannot rely on current Jewish practices to understand the practices reported in the NT, and
5) I will have to use Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy to correctly understand their practices in Jesus' time.

These are the facts with which I feel I must reckon to correctly understand the NT accounts of their practice in Jesus' time.

You've already demonstrated a severe lack of knowledge regarding how Judaism works. On this subject, you'll learn from Harmonious, not the other way around.

I appreciate the help from Harmonious, but her knowledge is not in agreement with the OT Scriptures; e.g.,
1) that there was no First Fruit offering required on Nisan 16,
2) that the first fruit offerings were fruit, not grain,
3) that the First Fruits offered on Sivan 6 was of the fruit harvest.

But, of course, for me the OT Scriptures are the authority on this matter.
I'm just trying to reckon with her differences from those Scriptures.
At this point, I have many reasons to use the OT Scriptures as my source for understanding the practices of Jesus' time.

Harmonious · Dec 19, 2010

Smoky, I'm only going to say this once. Levitical law, as you call it, isn't just what you see in the text of the Five Books of Moses. It is accompanied with an Oral Tradition that was handed to Moses by God, and taught teacher to student through the generations in an unbroken chain.

If you think that your "understanding" of what you are calling "Levitical law" actually covers the reality of the situation, you are seriously delusional.

Jewish law has EVER been thus.

If all you are using is the text of Leviticus, you are seriously missing... just about EVERYTHING in the picture.

The holidays are as I have described them.

Jews know how to celebrate what we've been celebrating for thousands of years.

You, who probably believe that all of the commandments are null and void anyway, wouldn't know how to accomplish even ONE of these commandments if the opportunity to do it passed in your direction.

You asked me how Jews did things, and I told you.

You choose to ignore what I've said, because you - who have never performed these commandments in your life - obviously know better than Jews who have performed most of the accomplishable commandments, and studied the currently unaccomplishable commandments for the better part of their lives.

And all of this posturing on your part is NOT to fully understand the commandments. It is merely to make sense out of a time line which is nonsense to start with, as the only way to believe any of the events happened as written, you have to seriously believe how many Jews would seriously have to completely ignore Jewish law, in public, on one of the most important holidays of the year.

But, of course, you know better, because it says so in the gospels, ignoring everything about Jewish law, due process, and protocol according to anything Jewish.

:sarcastic

I'll keep that in mind.

smokydot · Dec 19, 2010

Harmonious said:
Hmm...
Now, I'm getting curious if you are REALLY interested in this, or if you are just working to drag my head.
You know, Smoky, it helps to know how these countings correlate to commandments that Jews had to (and still) carry out. That way, they aren't just abstract verses that have no real meaning.

Concrete texts are not abstract and wthout meaning.

On Nissan 16, it wasn't a festival. It was a time of counting.

Okay, this is not what Leviticus 23:10-13 says.

On First Fruits of Nisan 16, a sheaf of the spring grain (barley) harvest was given as a wave offering, and a burnt offering
with its attendant grain offering and drink offering were required.

True, they counted off seven full weeks from that day to the Feast of Weeks, where they presented the First Fruits of the summer grain (wheat) harvest
in two loaves as a wave offering, accompanied by ten burnt offerings with their attendant grain and drink offerings.

According to Jewish law, because of the verses you pointed out, Jews are not allowed to eat "new" grain, or grain harvested after Nissan 16, until it is a year old. (This is particularly important in Israel, but Jewish farmers in America have decided to make it work, here.)
I don't know if you have seen signs in Jewish neighborhoods, saying "We sell Yashan," or "We sell Yoshon". It refers to grains being counted and timed in this fashion, from year to year. That is what this is referring to.
As far as the First Fruits... It was a gift that was brought to the Cohanim. (You see, they didn't have land, and otherwise couldn't sustain themselves. The gifts that God directed the Jews to give the Cohanim is how they could count on sustenance.)
In addition to simply bringing that gift of first fruit, it came with a declaration, that Jews had to make. That declaration is in Deuteronomy, 26:5-10:
5. And you shall call out and say before the Lord, your God, "An Aramean [sought to] destroy my forefather, and he went down to Egypt and sojourned there with a small number of people, and there, he became a great, mighty, and numerous nation.
6. And the Egyptians treated us cruelly and afflicted us, and they imposed hard labor upon us.
7. So we cried out to the Lord, God of our fathers, and the Lord heard our voice and saw our affliction, our toil, and our oppression.
8. And the Lord brought us out from Egypt with a strong hand and with an outstretched arm, with great awe, and with signs and wonders.
9. And He brought us to this place, and He gave us this land, a land flowing with milk and honey.
10. And now, behold, I have brought the first of the fruit of the ground which you, O Lord, have given to me." Then, you shall lay it before the Lord, your God, and prostrate yourself before the Lord, your God.

The offering and declaration of Deut 26:5-10, above, occurred only once, and is not the annual offerings of firstfruits on Nisan 16, Sivan 6, and during Teshri 15-21.

And for the Jews (and perhaps Noachides) reading along, that these verse I listed should sound familiar. They are, because these verses that are expounded upon in the Passover Haggadah. This paragraph is expounded upon, because it is a first person declaration of having the need to GO to Egypt, to have the need to be saved.
And Sukkot, the Feast of Tabernacles, is something different altogether.
That's not really so surprising, as you have no idea WHAT those dates were and how they were at all relevant to Jewish life. Therefore, you don't understand that these "feasts" were NOT abbreviated. You just don't know what they were.

I know that you were not familiar with the Firstfruits of Nisan 16.
I know that your knowledge regarding the Firstfruits of Sivan 6 was of the fruit, instead of the grain (wheat), harvest.

By "abbreviation," I mean that all three are not currently observed as specified in the OT Scriptures.

You never celebrated them, or applied the dates to your own life, or really had need to. The only thing you really use them for is attempting to figure out the days when Jesus died,

Actually, that has nothing to do with my understanding of the OT special days.

because the authors of the gospels were using terms that they figured would sound good to audiences who didn't know better.

And you know this how?

I, who apply said laws to my life, understand what they once were, and hope they will be again.
Proceed as you will.
I just told you what the dates in Jewish law are. You can choose to ignore what I've said, as you will. But if you really want to know the significance of the above dates to Jews, both in Jesus' time and now, you would heed what I've said.
If you choose to ignore it, you are free to live in the fantasy land that you've created for yourself that has nothing at all to do with how Jews lived, now, then, or at any other time.

But I have the record of the OT which tells me everything about their establishment by, and the legislation from God regarding them.

Dirty Penguin · Dec 19, 2010

Harmonious said:
Smoky, I'm only going to say this once. Levitical law, as you call it, isn't just what you see in the text of the Five Books of Moses. It is accompanied with an Oral Tradition that was handed to Moses by God, and taught teacher to student through the generations in an unbroken chain.

If you think that your "understanding" of what you are calling "Levitical law" actually covers the reality of the situation, you are seriously delusional.

Jewish law has EVER been thus.

If all you are using is the text of Leviticus, you are seriously missing... just about EVERYTHING in the picture.

The holidays are as I have described them.

Jews know how to celebrate what we've been celebrating for thousands of years.

You, who probably believe that all of the commandments are null and void anyway, wouldn't know how to accomplish even ONE of these commandments if the opportunity to do it passed in your direction.

You asked me how Jews did things, and I told you.

You choose to ignore what I've said, because you - who have never performed these commandments in your life - obviously know better than Jews who have performed most of the accomplishable commandments, and studied the currently unaccomplishable commandments for the better part of their lives.

And all of this posturing on your part is NOT to fully understand the commandments. It is merely to make sense out of a time line which is nonsense to start with, as the only way to believe any of the events happened as written, you have to seriously believe how many Jews would seriously have to completely ignore Jewish law, in public, on one of the most important holidays of the year.

But, of course, you know better, because it says so in the gospels, ignoring everything about Jewish law, due process, and protocol according to anything Jewish.

:sarcastic

I'll keep that in mind.

This is one of the reasons why I've put my focus on the events as described in the NT. Trying to use the OT to reconcile the NT seems futile in most cases. The writers are writing the gospels with bias or a preconceived notion trying to tie in previous events that have obvious happened already and making them into "prophecy".....

I fully admit I have no idea why the gospels seem to be talking about two separate Passover Preparation events but what is clear is that the last passover surrounding the supposed death of Yeshua and his crucifixion is clear that it was near the (Friday-Saturday) Sabbath and the women appeared after that Sabbath on the morning of the first day of the week (Sunday morning)....This leaves the (3 day/3night) prophecy in a suspect position. I don't think the writers thought future readers would cognizant of this....

Harmonious · Dec 19, 2010

smokydot said:
Concrete texts are not abstract and wthout meaning.

Of course it's not without meaning. However, it is also incomplete without the Oral Tradition that came with it.

Okay, this is not what Leviticus 23:10-13 says.

On First Fruits of Nisan 16, a sheaf of the spring grain (barley) harvest was given as a wave offering, and a burnt offering
with its attendant grain offering and drink offering were required.

Yup.

Leviticus 21:10-13
10. Speak to the children of Israel and say to them: When you come to the Land which I am giving you, and you reap its harvest, you shall bring to the kohen an omer of the beginning of your reaping.

11. And he shall wave the omer before the Lord so that it will be acceptable for you; the kohen shall wave it on the day after the rest day.

12. And on the day of your waving the omer, you shall offer up an unblemished lamb in its [first] year as a burnt offering to the Lord;

13. Its meal offering [shall be] two tenths [of an ephah] of fine flour mixed with oil, a fire offering to the Lord as a spirit of satisfaction. And its libation [shall be] a quarter of a hin of wine.

They were offered. An offering does not a holiday make. It says what I said it said.

True, they counted off seven full weeks from that day to the Feast of Weeks, where they presented the First Fruits of the summer grain (wheat) harvest
in two loaves as a wave offering, accompanied by ten burnt offerings with their attendant grain and drink offerings.

Yup. And that is, among other things, what makes the holiday of Shavu'ot.

The offering and declaration of Deut 26:5-10, above, occurred only once, and is not the annual offerings of firstfruits on Nisan 16, Sivan 6, and during Teshri 15-21.

And how do you know that? You don't - it is a meaningless supposition on your part.

From what I learned, the declaration and offering in Deuteronomy 26:5-10 was a regular offering on Shavu'ot. That is WHY it is the main text of the Passover Seder - it was so very much a part of Torah life for the farmers who brought their first fruit on Shavu'ot, it was particularly meaningful to be reprised on Passover.

I know that you were not familiar with the Firstfruits of Nisan 16.

I wasn't sure of the specific wording, you're right. But I DO know about counting Omer. I've done that since I learned about it in high school, in 1989.

I AM familiar with the context.

I know that your knowledge regarding the Firstfruits of Sivan 6 was of the fruit, instead of the grain (wheat), harvest.

I'm familiar with many things concerning the holiday that I've celebrated for as many years.

I'm not a farmer, so there are details I might not have studied. Most years, my concentration on Shavu'ot is on the receiving of the Torah. Since we don't have the Temple, you're right - I haven't studied every last passage concerning the offerings.

But you know... That doesn't mean that I don't know what goes on when we celebrate.

By "abbreviation," I mean that all three are not currently observed as specified in the OT Scriptures.

Yeah - the destruction of the Temple currently puts paid to that, now doesn't it?

Actually, that has nothing to do with my understanding of the OT special days.

I would say that it does, absolutely.

And you know this how?

Because if the authors of the gospels really meant what they wrote, it would be crystal clear what they were talking about. This whole thread would have been redundant, because everyone would have known precisely what happened when.

Instead, they wrote for a primarily ignorant audience, and they wrote what sounded good. Dude - you are still probably convinced that "Preparation Day" is a holiday.

That wouldn't be the case if the authors of the gospels were more interested in accuracy than in twaddle that sounded good.

But I have the record of the OT which tells me everything about their establishment by, and the legislation from God regarding them.

That statement is about as accurate as saying that you have a copy of the Constitution, and so now you know absolutely everything about American law.

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