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The Circle Dance: Trotting Out Tired Old Timothy ...

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
It is near impossible to engage in Biblical debate for any length of time without someone dredging up 2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
as if such an appeal was anything other than worthless. This is particularly absurd when those like AV1611 seek to buttress 1 Corinthians written by Paul with a vapid and irrelevant claim which he would no doubt argue was also written by Paul. The apologetic therefore reduces to:
A) "Paul is to be believed because Paul says that Scripture is inspired by God".
Clearly, there can be few more obvious examples of circulus in demonstrando.

But the problem doesn't stop here. In fact, no one is quite sure who wrote 2 Timothy. The Catholic New American Bible, in its Introduction to 1 Timothy, notes:
From the late second century to the nineteenth, Pauline authorship of the three Pastoral Epistles went unchallenged. Since then, the attribution of these letters to Paul has been questioned. Most scholars are convinced that Paul could not have been responsible for the vocabulary and style, the concept of church organization, or the theological expressions found in these letters. A second group believes, on the basis of statistical evidence, that the vocabulary and style are Pauline, even if at first sight the contrary seems to be the case. They state that the concept of church organization in the letters is not as advanced as the questioners of Pauline authorship hold since the notion of hierarchical order in a religious community existed in Israel before the time of Christ, as evidenced in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Finally, this group sees affinities between the theological thought of the Pastorals and that of the unquestionably genuine letters of Paul. Other scholars, while conceding a degree of validity to the positions mentioned above, suggest that the apostle made use of a secretary who was responsible for the composition of the letters. A fourth group of scholars believes that these letters are the work of a compiler, that they are based on traditions about Paul in his later years, and that they include, in varying amounts, actual fragments of genuine Pauline correspondence.

If Paul is considered the more immediate author, the Pastorals are to be dated between the end of his first Roman imprisonment (Acts 28:16) and his execution under Nero (A.D. 63-67); if they are regarded as only more remotely Pauline, their date may be as late as the early second century. In spite of these problems of authorship and dating, the Pastorals are illustrative of early Christian life and remain an important element of canonical scripture.​
So, the apologetic further reduces to:
B) "Paul is to be believed because some unknown apologist says that Scripture is inspired by God."
But, wait: what's inspired by God? Scripture? What could be meant by 'scripture' (i.e., 'graphe')? Thayer's Lexicon makes clear that the term refers to "the sacred books (of the O.T.)" - i.e., the Tanach!

And so we are left with ...
C) "Paul is to be believed because some unknown apologist says that the Old Testament books are inspired by God".
And that is about as worthless and as inane an argument as one can imagine - a circle dance which truly leads nowhere.
 

Darkdale

World Leader Pretend
Christianity, like all other religions, is a religion of faith, myth, superstition and tradition. Why non-Christians should concern themselves with the arguments of Christians is beyond me. It would seem to me that our religions are our own. What is the point in debating the dogma of religions that are not our own? What business is it of ours what traditions and dogmas others cling to?

You are a naturalist? Naturally you must wonder how in the world anyone could be so superstitious in the first place. :) Maybe the world is mad and all the gods are illusions. Maybe we're just a really crazy specie. Or not. Who knows?
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
I understand what you are saying Deut; The 'defender's notes don't help either.

"All scripture," every individual "scripture," is included in this reference, not just the thoughts but the actual writings, the words written down. Thus, the words are inspired of God. This one verse repudiates the idea of partial inspiration and also that of so-called dynamic inspiration. The true doctrine is plenary verbal inspiration of the Holy Scriptures. Since God is omniscient, the Scriptures are, therefore, infallible and free from error of any kind.
"Given by inspiration of God" is all one word in the Greek, theopneustos, meaning God-breathed. This word refutes any idea of human inspiration such as a poet or musician might claim. The Scriptures, by whatever particular methods God may have used in their various parts, including the individual human abilities and researches of the various human writers (whose abilities He had created and whose researches He had guided), as they finally came from their Spirit-guided minds and pens, are in effect God-breathed.
"Doctrine" is the same word as "teachings." All that the Bible teaches is true and profitable for study.
"Reproof" means "conviction" or "evidence" (as the word is translated in Hebrews 11:1). The Scriptures, themselves, give abundant internal evidence of their own divine inspiration.
"Correction" means "setting right." This is the only occurrence of this particular word (Greek epanorthosis) in the New Testament.
"Instruction" (Greek padeia) is translated "nurture" in Ephesians 6:4 and "chastening" in Hebrews 12:5,7,11. The Scriptures not only teach doctrine but also provide evidence of their truth, correction of any mistaken notions, and then any needed conviction and discipline warranted for our training as babes in Christ.


I suppose it comes down to the one word: Faith.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Snowbear said:
So why do you?
I didn't. I was responding to its use in a concurrent thread. Given that, do you have anything relevant to say, or do you prefer to simply limit yourself to vapid sarcasm written above a signature that says "Be nice"?
 

Snowbear

Nita Okhata
Deut. 32.8 said:
I didn't. I was responding to its use in a concurrent thread. Given that, do you have anything relevant to say, or do you prefer to simply limit yourself to vapid sarcasm written above a signature that says "Be nice"?
Actually, I was asking why you continue to engage in the biblical debates that ultimately end up frustrating you.

But.... vapid sarcasm is more my style.... :D
 

blueman

God's Warrior
Then where does scripture get its inspiration? From man? Even the most hardened skeptic would have to acknowledge that scripture, especially the New Testament Gospels, that it would have been pretty far-fetched in men conspiring to make up stories or legend that they would be willing to die for. It just doesn't make any sense to die for a lie does it? I think that scripture was God-ordained and inspired. The authors of scripture would not all be willing to sacrifice their lives for a fraud. :)
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
blueman said:
It just doesn't make any sense to die for a lie does it? I think that scripture was God-ordained and inspired.
That is a rather stupid argument. Feel free to pursue it in its own thread. But first, since your soul is at stake, you might wish to focus your efforts on embracing the Book of Mormon - if only because of the martyrdom of Joseph and Hyrum Smith.

*** NOTE FROM MODERATOR *** Deut: I know this is your thread. That's the only reason I didn't delete this post. However, since It is encouraging debate on an entirely unrelated topic, I have addressed the problem by deleting all of the responses to it.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
michel: Scott has made clear that there was no intent to plagiarize. I should have checked with you offline before making an accusation that was clearly baseless. I apologize, and will delete the post.
 

blueman

God's Warrior
Deut. 32.8 said:
That is a rather stupid argument. Feel free to pursue it in its own thread. But first, since your soul is at stake, you might wish to focus your efforts on embracing the Book of Mormon - if only because of the martyrdom of Joseph and Hyrum Smith.
First of all, it is a legitimate statement I made for the purpose of this debate and it's only stupid, because you don't agree with it. You are a naturalist, so I don't expect you to embraced anything that is spiritually ordained or would be considered super natural. Your mind is already made up when it comes to this issue.

*** EDITED BY MODERATOR *** Joseph Smith's martyrdom is not the topic here.
 

CaptainXeroid

Following Christ
Snowbear said:
Actually, I was asking why you continue to engage in the biblical debates that ultimately end up frustrating you.

But.... vapid sarcasm is more my style.... :D
Nice rebuttal! I find it simply filarious that someone would accuse you of doing what he has mastered.:biglaugh:
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Deut. 32.8 said:
michel: Scott has made clear that there was no intent to plagiarize. I should have checked with you offline before making an accusation that was clearly baseless. I apologize, and will delete the post.
No problem Deut; it happens.:)
 

Master Vigil

Well-Known Member
blueman said:
Then where does scripture get its inspiration? From man? Even the most hardened skeptic would have to acknowledge that scripture, especially the New Testament Gospels, that it would have been pretty far-fetched in men conspiring to make up stories or legend that they would be willing to die for. It just doesn't make any sense to die for a lie does it? I think that scripture was God-ordained and inspired. The authors of scripture would not all be willing to sacrifice their lives for a fraud. :)
I have a problem with this. Only that you don't take into consideration the other religious texts, and myths of the age and the one's that pre-date christianity. Are they "too far fetched for man?" If so, why are they less valid than the bible? If not, why are they not as far fetched as the Myth of Jesus? You also don't take into consideration all of those in other religions that die for their beliefs. Are they sacrificing their lives for lies? So which beliefs are true? The one's the early christians died for, or the one's that countless other religious people died for?
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
I have a problem with this. Only that you don't take into consideration the other religious texts, and myths of the age and the one's that pre-date christianity. Are they "too far fetched for man?" If so, why are they less valid than the bible? If not, why are they not as far fetched as the Myth of Jesus? You also don't take into consideration all of those in other religions that die for their beliefs. Are they sacrificing their lives for lies? So which beliefs are true? The one's the early christians died for, or the one's that countless other religious people died for?
You took one point and split it into two... :tsk:

It is not that the scriptures are "too far-fetched for man"(Which was not in his post, but I will get to that), or that people died...

It was that it would be extremely far-fetched to hold the opinion that the apostles would have made up legends about Jesus, and then be killed for what they know to be lies...
 

Master Vigil

Well-Known Member
Mister Emu said:
You took one point and split it into two... :tsk:

It is not that the scriptures are "too far-fetched for man"(Which was not in his post, but I will get to that), or that people died...
I apologize.

It was that it would be extremely far-fetched to hold the opinion that the apostles would have made up legends about Jesus, and then be killed for what they know to be lies...
Even so, do you believe that the beliefs of native americans are lies? Is it too far fetched that they would make up myths and be willing to die for them? What makes willingness to die a valid argument for the validity of what they are dying for?
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think to make it short in here ...

1- Let's see who is the one with no sin? Christians will say Jesus Christ is the the only pure one with no sin.

2- Were the writers of these scriptures prophets "at least" so we trust them that much?

3- All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. 2 Timothy 3:16. why would you believe such a claim from someone ( Paul ) who never ever met Jesus Christ in his life? and he ( Paul ) was just a jew who used christianity by his own rules and by his own thoughts and explainations (which is able to be right or wrong because he was just a human being like us).

- I wonder if anyone of you heard of many people claiming that Jesus came and talked to them (because they really love Jesus and they want to meet him) but who would believe that?


Peace ... :)
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
The Truth said:
1- Let's see who is the one with no sin? Christians will say Jesus Christ is the the only pure one with no sin.
No, Christians will say Jesus is the only Holy One with no sin.

2- Were the writers of these scriptures prophets "at least" so we trust them that much?
Not all of the writers of Scripture were prophets. In the New Testament, only John was, I believe.

3- All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. 2 Timothy 3:16. why would you believe such a claim from someone ( Paul ) who never ever met Jesus Christ in his life?
Acts 9 records Paul's meeting with Jesus, as recorded by Luke, not Paul.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
AV1611 said:
Acts 9 records Paul's meeting with Jesus, as recorded by Luke, not Paul.
"Recorded" is the perfect term here. Luke saw nothing and new nothing other than what was claimed by Paul. That he reports Paul's claim is worthless as evidence.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Deut. 32.8 said:
"Recorded" is the perfect term here. Luke saw nothing and new nothing other than what was claimed by Paul. That he reports Paul's claim is worthless as evidence.
He didn't have to. He had plenty of documentation in front of him to sort out (Luke 1:1-2), and God superintended the whole thing.
 
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