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Let There Be Light and There Was Light

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Aha! I got your problem. Correct me if I am mistaken. You think that the Genesis account of Creation was written at the time of Creation? It could have been written hundreds of years, even a thousand or more, from small fragments throughout those years. Baruch de Spinosa claims that they were written by the most famous Scribe in the History of Israel: Ezra. When he wrote the spiritual proclamation, "Let it be light," physical light was in the universe for millions of years already. The Bible was written and coded with the intent to organize the nation of Israel, which before, would live from oral tradition being instructed by Priests, Levites, Scribes and Prophets. Only then, Ezra who, definitely organized the Scriptures, Jeremiah had prophecised that we would have no need to be taught anymore how to know the Lord, because we would have the Scriptures in our own heart. (Jer. 31:34)

You're mistaken....

I was making the approach to Genesis as I see...... God as Creator.
And no I don't think the account was written at the same time it happened.
Did I not say so.....

He spoke..... when language did not exist.
 

allright

Active Member
How real do you want me to get? I don't think you are in the position to stand reality. How many disciples did Jesus have on that mount before he started his famous sermon? Twelve, I didn't hear you. TWELVE! Thank you. Now, read the impression that he caused at the end of his sermon. It is in Matthew 7:28. The people were astonished at his doctrine. This is from KJV. In the NAB, I have "and the crowds were astonished at his doctrine." Besides, you didn't even have to go to the end of his sermon, the first verse gives the multitudes that motivated Jesus to climb up the mountain and deliver his famous sermon. Now, listen to your Logic. As Jesus saw the multitudes, he went up to the mountain and delivered his speech in the ears of his twelve disciples. At the end, according to Matthew 7:28, the multitudes were astonished at his speech. Now, go ahead and tell me how much sense does it make to you now? And please, commit to memory how real one can be.

Now, regarding Zechariah 12:10, the issue is about the return of the Jews from exile in Babylon. They must have been instructed by the Prophets, especialy Ezekiel, that their exile had been temporary, only 70 years and not rejected forever as Israel was, because God had promised David that Judah would remain forever as a Lamp in Jerusalem. (I King 11:36) And this decision of God had been taken according to Psalm 78:67-69 when Israel had been rejected forever and Judah had been confirmed to stay instead of Israel. Therefore, the returning Jews, in their happiness to start anew in their new life back in Jerusalem, they would look in their memory upon Israel whom they have pierced, and they would mourn for him as one mourns for his only son. How had they pierced Israel? Judah had rejected God's Covenant, according to Isaiah 8:6 and God had doomed Judah to extinction. But for the sake of David, God's judgement sent upon Jacob had lighted upon Israel. (Isa. 9:8) That's how Judah had pierced Israel. Because the doom over Judah had been transferred to Israel, which was removed from existence in Judah's instead.

:thud: Its amazing what nonsense your willing to make up to avoid the truth:thud:
 

ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
Are you talking about the special effects of MRI? But as I can remember, MRI does not produce radiation. Then, with regards to God's speech, I am kind of scheptic,
since God is not like a man to speak. And He does speak but during a vision or lucid
dream. (Numb. 12:6)
Not exactly. I am speaking as a man of science who became a man of god through special revelation. It is not my intention to twist scripture to suit a personal agenda nor to dispute the evident scholarship with which you ask this question. Merely to present another layer of uncertainty to that most unknowable of beings.

For instance, visible light makes up one octillionth of the electromagnetic spectrum. One octillionth. The early quark-gluon plasma was opaque to radiation, meaning that the instant of creation may remain impossible to discern to science, regardless of the improvement of measurement technology. And, the world's favorite lepton, the electron, is the source of the particle/wave duality that still has the entire field of theoretical physics scratching its collective noggin nearly a hundred years later.

That is godlike, in my book. Are we ever going to be certain what god actually meant? Not in this lifetime. But we can have a degree of certainity that the Word of God is not so easily dismissed. ;)
 

Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
Not exactly. I am speaking as a man of science who became a man of god through special revelation. It is not my intention to twist scripture to suit a personal agenda nor to dispute the evident scholarship with which you ask this question. Merely to present another layer of uncertainty to that most unknowable of beings.

For instance, visible light makes up one octillionth of the electromagnetic spectrum. One octillionth. The early quark-gluon plasma was opaque to radiation, meaning that the instant of creation may remain impossible to discern to science, regardless of the improvement of measurement technology. And, the world's favorite lepton, the electron, is the source of the particle/wave duality that still has the entire field of theoretical physics scratching its collective noggin nearly a hundred years later.

That is godlike, in my book. Are we ever going to be certain what god actually meant? Not in this lifetime. But we can have a degree of certainity that the Word of God is not so easily dismissed. ;)


Impressive post, this of yours above. The only thing I can add in the meantime is that we have a lot in common. I guess I could say we identify with each other in our views. You ain't kidding about the fight I am involved with those who struggle to dismiss the Word of God.
 

Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
:thud: Its amazing what nonsense your willing to make up to avoid the truth:thud:


However, it does not amaze me how, after reading my over Biblically documented post above, you still remain unimpressed. Two points, IMO is the reason. You either did not understand it or your faith has taken the proportions of the faithful of Jim Jones. The difference is that you can get back to me for further info. The poor ones of Jim Jones could not enjoy that chance.
 

Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
You're mistaken....

I was making the approach to Genesis as I see...... God as Creator.
And no I don't think the account was written at the same time it happened.
Did I not say so.....

He spoke..... when language did not exist.


God is not like a man to speak. And He does speak but in a vision or lucid dream. BTW, the whole Genesis account of Creation is an allegory; and it develops as follows:

The Double Allegory of Creation


There are three stages for the account of Creation in Genesis: Two allegories and the Reality which the allegories point to: Man as the theme of Creation.

The first allegory in the Genesis account of Creation is in the letter of the account, and here abide the masses of religious people for taking the account at its face value. I mean, Adam and Eve in the Garden being provided by God with all their needs, being told what's allowed and forbidden in the Garden, being misled by the serpent into eating of a forbidden tree, and eventually being punished with different kinds of punishments respectively on all three of them, etc. Just literally as it is written.

The second allegory has still the same elements and God is still figured anthropomorphically, but the meaning of the actions and behaviour depicts a more logical version of what happened in the Garden. And here abide those who can think more logically, abbeit not in the archtype level of Reality. In this phase of the account of Creation in Genesis, after God created Adam and Eve, He granted them with freewill and expected to be served and sought after by them, but the thing was not working. God would have to search for them and that was not the right method. They would have to become proficient and leave the Garden in order to seek for God in terms of growing in knowledge out in the greater world.

Then, among the many fruit trees in the Garden, God planted a most beautiful of all the trees with fruits much more alluring, and right in the middle of the Garden, so that it would easily call their attention. It was the tree of knowledge. But it was not working. Then, God told them that the fruit of that tree was forbidden under penalty of death, but just in the hope that the warning would make them curious and go for it. It was not working either.

Nex, God doubled in Eve the emotion of curiosity so that she would go for it and entice Adam into eating of that tree. However, God had underestimated Eve's emotion of love. She had fallen in love with her man and she would never risk loosing him for no stupid fruit even if it looked the most appetitizing of all. Obviously, it didn't work.

The next step was to use the services of the serpent to persuade Eve that she had misunderstood the prohibition. That what would die in them was not themselves but their stupid innocence and naivete. Then, the serpent showed up on the very tree and somehow called for Eve's attention. As she approached, the dialogue started. To instigate the conversation, the serpent started with a question which surely would require an explanation. "Is it that you guys cannot eat from the trees in the Garden?" Bingo! Eve was locked in. The serpent got Eve to talk by explaining that only from the tree of knowledge, they were forbidden. "Why?" the serpent retortted. "Because we would die," she said. "Nonsense!" said the serpent. "You have misunderstood the whole thing. God meant to say that you two will become like gods, knowing good from evil."

Now, imagine, Eve must have thought, her man like a god! Without much ado, Eve reached for the fruit, ate it and told Adam that it was okay. Adam thought for a second and came to the conclusion that even if it was not okay, he would rather die with her beloved who had just enjoyed half of a fruit. Then he ate the other half and went on eating more. The serpent was right. They did not die. And the first knowledge they acquired was of how much they did not know. I mean, that they were naked, completely destitute of knowledge.

It didn't take too long for God to appear in the Garden to collect the fruit of His enterprise. It had finally happened what He wanted without His having to do anything against man's freewill. Then, He formally defined some punishments to everyone according to their nature anyway, and got them out of the Garden into the greater world out there, so that they would grow in knowledge by seeking for God, which would be the right method.

Now, the third phase or Reality, the account of Creation is supposed to point to. I mean, the Humanistic approach, which is the purpose of the double allegory. The riddle points to the three phases in the development of man: Childhood, adulthood, and old age. Here, only the enlightened with Philosophical training dwells. I mean, the Theist who is big enough not to let him or herself be intoxicated by blind faith. In this class we can find also Atheists and Agnostics but under the subclass of sarchasm for not being able to harmonize enlightenment with the conception of God free of anthropomorphism.

Childhood is understood by that phase in the Garden when God would have to provide man with everything. That's the phase when we are dependent on our parents or on others for all our needs. That's the phase of walking on our four legs.

Adulthood is applied to that time when man ate of the tree of knowledge and became conscious of himself. That's when we actually become an adult and responsible for our own actions. I mean, when we can stand on our own two legs, so to speak.

Regarding the phase of old age, the allegory of Creation does not go into details, but it's when we become dependent again on others, especailly our children to take care of us. I mean, the phase of walking on two legs and a cane.


Ben
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
As for that particular light... Christ was able to instantaneously heal and wither trees while on earth (not that miracles are unscientific), and, as we know from John 1, was the being which actually did the creating of all things as directed by the Father -so he could have simply caused some light to work by -because it was dark. However, our sun may actually have already been there in some state (I'll get to how later) -and he merely flipped the switch, as it were -to turn it on. He stoked the fire, so to speak. In verse 4, God divided the light from that light from the darkness -resulting in day and night on earth. What would that require? Spinning the earth in relation to the sun. The rest of the making of lights for signs, seasons, years, etc... refers to placement of celestial bodies in relation to each other. Saying he made the greater light (sun) in a later verse is a reiteration, not a statement of sequence as it refers to the sun itself -but as it refers to the other lights and their placement in relation to the sun, earth and each other.


...and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

(Note: the spirit of God in the above is not WHO did the creating, but HOW the Word did the creating. The above does not contradict John 1)

Many misunderstand Genesis to say that the earth was initially created about six thousand years ago, but this is not the case -and some background may clarify this issue for you.

The bible actually places Lucifer on earth -in Eden -before he sinned -yet he had already led an unsuccessful coup against God's throne and was called the devil by the time he interacted with Eve.

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Now consider....

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

A simple statement. Some believe the next words to mean that the earth wasn't finished and essentially needed some sprucing up...

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void;

...but the word translated "was" is...

H1961
היה
hâyâh
haw-yaw'
A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary)....

So -if we read it as..
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth HAD BECOME without form, and void;
...which is perfectly acceptable, it means something much different!

It is not specified when the initial completion of the creation of the earth took place -nor is an amount of time specified between its completion and its eventual ruin.

How did it travel to be ruined before Adam and Eve were created?
We read in Job that the angels shouted for joy at its creation...
Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding...........
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
So what happened between this joy-causing creation and Adam and Eve?

WAR! SIN! SATAN'S COUP!

When men war, the earth gets pretty messed up -what happens when angels war (Satan led a third of the angels -for which he was responsible -to sin)? What happens when they get back from a war they lost and are frustrated?

So -the war is over, the demons are restrained -and the Word, who eventually becomes Christ begins to REcreate what is left of the earth. The universe was already created, so there were some lights/stars/suns knocking about, but not in the present arrangement. The deep/waters were already there -and he had to separate water from dry land, etc.. etc...
He then eventually renewed Eden -and created Adam about 6,000 years ago -according to the genealogies given in the bible. I've skimmed over this last bit, but that's for another post.

This allows for all that we see in the fossil record, and for all sorts of life forms on earth -even humanoids and civilization -before Adam. Adam was the first man by biblical definition -made in the image and likeness of God and having the potential to live forever -not by scientific definition.

Luk 11:24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian
The previous posts are running in different directions and at the same time...using similar terms.
This could become a wash of terms and all meanings could be lost.

The initial quote...the thread title is of course biblical.
But the focus and mindful thought will not be supported by scripture.

When considering the creation of light...God's first creation....
it will not do well to let your thoughts wander from that action.

The Garden....and Man....were not present.
The form of the earth is mentioned...in the beginning....but not yet formed.

I say....let's back up a few postings and consider.....
The Void.
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
YET...
"The form of the earth is mentioned...in the beginning....but not yet formed." is an assumption based on what you believe it says -not what it actually says -and especially not based on what the words allow.

Please read my post thoroughly again -I edited it -and have given adequate scriptural support -and can provide more. We need to disregard our preconceptions and read what it says.

Also -the first thing God created was not the light -but the heaven and earth!

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

BUT Before he created earth... created angels!
Are we to believe this is not possible because it is not specified in the very general statement of Genesis 1?

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. ........
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

The sons of God here are angels...

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

The first thing he created was....

H8064
שׁמה שׁמים
shâmayim shâmeh
shaw-mah'-yim, shaw-meh'
The second form being dual of an unused singular; from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perhaps alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve): - air, X astrologer, heaven (-s).

Perhaps you might say that this means only the blackness of space, and nothing in it, but this does not stand to reason, scripture, science or anything else. If you are trying to say that the bible states that God created the void of space first, then put the earth within it next, then all other celestial bodies afterward -that is illogical -and an assumption -and is not specifically stated. The first reference to a time frame and sequence is the first evening and morning. The fact that the seasons and years were delineated on a specific day says nothing specific about the initial creation of any clestial body -but does specifically relate to their relative positions.
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian


The sons of God here are angels...

The first thing he created was....


I reduced your previous posts to those items we can actually work with.

True enough...heaven and the earth are mentioned first.....in the beginning.

But the book does not declare them to be the first creations.

Verse one is an introduction.
Verse two shows the earth not having form....void.
It tells of darkness.....and the face of the deep.

Are you actually using your imagination to conjure thoughts of water?
(It's not far from wrong.)
Why do you suppose water is mentioned?...instead of hydrogen?

The rest of the verses are written the same way...out of sequence....
and with terms that are suitable to people who do not know....much.

Or will you be insisting the handiwork of Genesis is dictation.....
as if God Himself is looking over the shoulder of the scribe?
 

Zardoz

Wonderful Wizard
Premium Member
.... Now, read the impression that he caused at the end of his sermon. It is in Matthew 7:28...

Yes, Ben, but you see his response. Twice I brought up Matthew 7:28 to allright before you did and he's refused to reply three times now. We both know why he's so keen on seeing Yeshua as only teaching the disciples and not the Jewish People as a whole, don't we?
 
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ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
God is not like a man to speak. And He does speak but in a vision or lucid dream. BTW, the whole Genesis account of Creation is an allegory; and it develops as follows:

The Double Allegory of Creation


There are three stages for the account of Creation in Genesis: Two allegories and the Reality which the allegories point to: Man as the theme of Creation.

The first allegory in the Genesis account of Creation is in the letter of the account, and here abide the masses of religious people for taking the account at its face value. I mean, Adam and Eve in the Garden being provided by God with all their needs, being told what's allowed and forbidden in the Garden, being misled by the serpent into eating of a forbidden tree, and eventually being punished with different kinds of punishments respectively on all three of them, etc. Just literally as it is written.

The second allegory has still the same elements and God is still figured anthropomorphically, but the meaning of the actions and behaviour depicts a more logical version of what happened in the Garden. And here abide those who can think more logically, abbeit not in the archtype level of Reality. In this phase of the account of Creation in Genesis, after God created Adam and Eve, He granted them with freewill and expected to be served and sought after by them, but the thing was not working. God would have to search for them and that was not the right method. They would have to become proficient and leave the Garden in order to seek for God in terms of growing in knowledge out in the greater world.

Then, among the many fruit trees in the Garden, God planted a most beautiful of all the trees with fruits much more alluring, and right in the middle of the Garden, so that it would easily call their attention. It was the tree of knowledge. But it was not working. Then, God told them that the fruit of that tree was forbidden under penalty of death, but just in the hope that the warning would make them curious and go for it. It was not working either.

Nex, God doubled in Eve the emotion of curiosity so that she would go for it and entice Adam into eating of that tree. However, God had underestimated Eve's emotion of love. She had fallen in love with her man and she would never risk loosing him for no stupid fruit even if it looked the most appetitizing of all. Obviously, it didn't work.

The next step was to use the services of the serpent to persuade Eve that she had misunderstood the prohibition. That what would die in them was not themselves but their stupid innocence and naivete. Then, the serpent showed up on the very tree and somehow called for Eve's attention. As she approached, the dialogue started. To instigate the conversation, the serpent started with a question which surely would require an explanation. "Is it that you guys cannot eat from the trees in the Garden?" Bingo! Eve was locked in. The serpent got Eve to talk by explaining that only from the tree of knowledge, they were forbidden. "Why?" the serpent retortted. "Because we would die," she said. "Nonsense!" said the serpent. "You have misunderstood the whole thing. God meant to say that you two will become like gods, knowing good from evil."

Now, imagine, Eve must have thought, her man like a god! Without much ado, Eve reached for the fruit, ate it and told Adam that it was okay. Adam thought for a second and came to the conclusion that even if it was not okay, he would rather die with her beloved who had just enjoyed half of a fruit. Then he ate the other half and went on eating more. The serpent was right. They did not die. And the first knowledge they acquired was of how much they did not know. I mean, that they were naked, completely destitute of knowledge.

It didn't take too long for God to appear in the Garden to collect the fruit of His enterprise. It had finally happened what He wanted without His having to do anything against man's freewill. Then, He formally defined some punishments to everyone according to their nature anyway, and got them out of the Garden into the greater world out there, so that they would grow in knowledge by seeking for God, which would be the right method.

Now, the third phase or Reality, the account of Creation is supposed to point to. I mean, the Humanistic approach, which is the purpose of the double allegory. The riddle points to the three phases in the development of man: Childhood, adulthood, and old age. Here, only the enlightened with Philosophical training dwells. I mean, the Theist who is big enough not to let him or herself be intoxicated by blind faith. In this class we can find also Atheists and Agnostics but under the subclass of sarchasm for not being able to harmonize enlightenment with the conception of God free of anthropomorphism.

Childhood is understood by that phase in the Garden when God would have to provide man with everything. That's the phase when we are dependent on our parents or on others for all our needs. That's the phase of walking on our four legs.

Adulthood is applied to that time when man ate of the tree of knowledge and became conscious of himself. That's when we actually become an adult and responsible for our own actions. I mean, when we can stand on our own two legs, so to speak.

Regarding the phase of old age, the allegory of Creation does not go into details, but it's when we become dependent again on others, especailly our children to take care of us. I mean, the phase of walking on two legs and a cane.


Ben

Nice. Long figured the serpent to be science. Not evil, just not-god. God and not-god, rather than good and evil; as the second depends upon cultural perspective, while the first discusses what can be given (god) and what must be learned (science). I mean, if god gave us science directly, we'd be building phasers; we'd be zapping each other, game over.
 

ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
As for that particular light... Christ was able to instantaneously heal and wither trees while on earth (not that miracles are unscientific), and, as we know from John 1, was the being which actually did the creating of all things as directed by the Father -so he could have simply caused some light to work by -because it was dark. However, our sun may actually have already been there in some state (I'll get to how later) -and he merely flipped the switch, as it were -to turn it on. He stoked the fire, so to speak. In verse 4, God divided the light from that light from the darkness -resulting in day and night on earth. What would that require? Spinning the earth in relation to the sun. The rest of the making of lights for signs, seasons, years, etc... refers to placement of celestial bodies in relation to each other. Saying he made the greater light (sun) in a later verse is a reiteration, not a statement of sequence as it refers to the sun itself -but as it refers to the other lights and their placement in relation to the sun, earth and each other.


...and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

(Note: the spirit of God in the above is not WHO did the creating, but HOW the Word did the creating. The above does not contradict John 1)

Many misunderstand Genesis to say that the earth was initially created about six thousand years ago, but this is not the case -and some background may clarify this issue for you.

The bible actually places Lucifer on earth -in Eden -before he sinned -yet he had already led an unsuccessful coup against God's throne and was called the devil by the time he interacted with Eve.

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Now consider....

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

A simple statement. Some believe the next words to mean that the earth wasn't finished and essentially needed some sprucing up...

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void;

...but the word translated "was" is...

H1961
היה
hâyâh
haw-yaw'
A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary)....

So -if we read it as..
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth HAD BECOME without form, and void;
...which is perfectly acceptable, it means something much different!

It is not specified when the initial completion of the creation of the earth took place -nor is an amount of time specified between its completion and its eventual ruin.

How did it travel to be ruined before Adam and Eve were created?
We read in Job that the angels shouted for joy at its creation...
Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding...........
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
So what happened between this joy-causing creation and Adam and Eve?

WAR! SIN! SATAN'S COUP!

When men war, the earth gets pretty messed up -what happens when angels war (Satan led a third of the angels -for which he was responsible -to sin)? What happens when they get back from a war they lost and are frustrated?

So -the war is over, the demons are restrained -and the Word, who eventually becomes Christ begins to REcreate what is left of the earth. The universe was already created, so there were some lights/stars/suns knocking about, but not in the present arrangement. The deep/waters were already there -and he had to separate water from dry land, etc.. etc...
He then eventually renewed Eden -and created Adam about 6,000 years ago -according to the genealogies given in the bible. I've skimmed over this last bit, but that's for another post.

This allows for all that we see in the fossil record, and for all sorts of life forms on earth -even humanoids and civilization -before Adam. Adam was the first man by biblical definition -made in the image and likeness of God and having the potential to live forever -not by scientific definition.

Luk 11:24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
Christians. :p

Pre 2:4 is men created in god's image, on the sixth day. Post 2:4 is Adam, created from dust and breath. Carelessly combining the two leads to nonsense like a six thousand year old earth. Disregarding science also leads to observational anomalies, like Venus. That is how Earth should look, all things considered. Yet, something happened; like a comet impacting the Earth in the deep past, stripping away the thick atmosphere that would naturally developed.

What was the name of that comet? Lucifer, perhaps? Or, how about an older story? Tiamat?
 

ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
Yes, Ben, but you see his response. Twice I brought up Matthew 7:28 to allright before you did and he's refused to reply three times now. We both know why he's so keen on seeing Yeshua as only teaching the disciples and not the Jewish People as a whole, don't we?
From the notes in my fat ol' NIV Study Bible:
Since at the end of the Sermon the "crowds" expressed amazement at Jesus' teaching (7:28). "disciples" may be used here in a broader sense than the Twelve. Or perhaps the Sermon is addressed to the Twelve with the crowds also listening.
So, I repeat... Christians. :p
:D
 

Zardoz

Wonderful Wizard
Premium Member
From the notes in my fat ol' NIV Study Bible:
Since at the end of the Sermon the "crowds" expressed amazement at Jesus' teaching (7:28). "disciples" may be used here in a broader sense than the Twelve. Or perhaps the Sermon is addressed to the Twelve with the crowds also listening.
So, I repeat... Christians.

So you agree with allright here:

...In Mathew 5:14 Jesus was speaking to his disciples, not to the Jewish people. ...

That Yeshua was not speaking to the Jewish People? Please try to keep in mind that there are no Christians there, only Jews.
 

ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
So you agree with allright here:



That Yeshua was not speaking to the Jewish People? Please try to keep in mind that there are no Christians there, only Jews.
I wasn't agreeing with anyone. I was disagreeing with the Christian. When Jesus is just speaking to the Disciples, it seems there is just a paragraph or two. In this case, there is two chapters. Seems obvious to me he was addressing a wider audience.
 

Zardoz

Wonderful Wizard
Premium Member
Sorry, my misunderstanding since you ended with "So, I repeat... Christians."
 
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