Do you get smart when you die?

Pegg said:

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 'For there is an eventuality as respects the sons of mankind and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the same eventuality. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit, so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity. 20 All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust

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This from a JW? :sarcastic

Isn't it that "common wisdom" states "Ecclesiastes is meant to show an existence without god?" That the seeming contradiction with above and the "dominion of Adam over the animal" of Genesis suggests that Ecclesiastes not be taken literally?

ellenjanuary said:

This from a JW? :sarcastic

Isn't it that "common wisdom" states "Ecclesiastes is meant to show an existence without god?" That the seeming contradiction with above and the "dominion of Adam over the animal" of Genesis suggests that Ecclesiastes not be taken literally?

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We take our beliefs from the bible...if thats what Solomon said happens to us when we die, then thats what we believe happens to us when we die. Consciousness ceases...that rules out existing in another form and floating off to heaven.

Really, Solomon is teaching us to come to grips with our mortality. Because we have death hanging over us, we are no different to the animals. We are no superior to them while in our current condition.
If we didnt die, that would be a different story. then we would be superior to them but as it is, Solomon, with all the wisdom of God, tells us that we have no superiority over the animals because 'as one dies, so the other dies and they all go to the same place'

I know thats hard for us to swallow but its Gods truth and it should humble us. We are not like God, we do not live eternally, we are no immortal....this is what God was teaching us through Solomons words. Have you considered that perhaps the people who say that Ecclesiastes is not to be taken literally say so because they teach something contrary to what we read?

Pegg,
What if your perspective on Ecclesiastes is wrong, what if when Solomon says something is vain he really means vain and to try to reproduce it in itself would be sinful? Then we see an entirely different (And much more appropriate, righteous, and consistent) perspective on this book.

This book details how useless life is without God, including the fact that nothing comes after death so no matter how righteous you are you die just like a cow and no one will remember the difference because they'll die just like cows too.

"Although a wicked man commits a hundred crimes and still lives a long time, I know that it will go better with God-fearing men, who are reverent before God."Ecc 8:12

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How do you as a JW deal with the last chapters of the book? I've asked some others and it seems they only read the beginning of Ecclesiastes.

Looking forward to your reply,
QM

Pegg said:

We take our beliefs from the bible...if thats what Solomon said happens to us when we die, then thats what we believe happens to us when we die. Consciousness ceases...that rules out existing in another form and floating off to heaven.

Really, Solomon is teaching us to come to grips with our mortality. Because we have death hanging over us, we are no different to the animals. We are no superior to them while in our current condition.
If we didnt die, that would be a different story. then we would be superior to them but as it is, Solomon, with all the wisdom of God, tells us that we have no superiority over the animals because 'as one dies, so the other dies and they all go to the same place'

I know thats hard for us to swallow but its Gods truth and it should humble us. We are not like God, we do not live eternally, we are no immortal....this is what God was teaching us through Solomons words. Have you considered that perhaps the people who say that Ecclesiastes is not to be taken literally say so because they teach something contrary to what we read?

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Surprised me, that someone would agree. The first book read of the first Bible I ever bought was Ecclesiastes. For days. My favorite.

I seem to get something different from the Bible than all the Christians that surround me. They seem to hold the Bible high, over their heads; a limit they cannot surpass, one they expect everyone else to bow under. I don't think that the Bible is a limit at all. I think that it is not to cower under, but to stand upon. To extend one's living reach, to god.

QuestionMark said:

Pegg,
What if your perspective on Ecclesiastes is wrong, what if when Solomon says something is vain he really means vain and to try to reproduce it in itself would be sinful? Then we see an entirely different (And much more appropriate, righteous, and consistent) perspective on this book.

This book details how useless life is without God, including the fact that nothing comes after death so no matter how righteous you are you die just like a cow and no one will remember the difference because they'll die just like cows too.



How do you as a JW deal with the last chapters of the book? I've asked some others and it seems they only read the beginning of Ecclesiastes.

Looking forward to your reply,
QM

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In a world of rampant technology and mindless striving for the almighty dollar, a world where religion is a game played the masses to follow the herd; you would think a book has more relevance than Ecclesiastes?

QuestionMark said:

Pegg,
What if your perspective on Ecclesiastes is wrong, what if when Solomon says something is vain he really means vain and to try to reproduce it in itself would be sinful? Then we see an entirely different (And much more appropriate, righteous, and consistent) perspective on this book.

This book details how useless life is without God, including the fact that nothing comes after death so no matter how righteous you are you die just like a cow and no one will remember the difference because they'll die just like cows too.

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im not sure i understand what your trying to say. On one hand you say that the book 'details how useless life is without God...nothing comes after death' which is what i was saying in my earlier post. We die and return to dust like the animals do...IOW there is no life after death so this life is our one and only chance. Do you believe that or not?
If you dont believe that is what Solomon is trying to teach, what is he teaching?

QuestionMark said:

How do you as a JW deal with the last chapters of the book? I've asked some others and it seems they only read the beginning of Ecclesiastes.

Looking forward to your reply,
QM

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Solomons conclusion is summed up in the last part of the book where he repeats his point that he makes at the outset of the book 'Everything is Vanity'

Eccl 12:8 “The greatest vanity!” said the congregator, “Everything is vanity.”
9 And besides the fact that the congregator had become wise, he also taught the people knowledge continually, and he pondered and made a thorough search, that he might arrange many proverbs in order. 10 The congregator sought to find the delightful words and the writing of correct words of truth.
11 The words of the wise ones are like oxgoads, and just like nails driven in are those indulging in collections [of sentences]; they have been given from one shepherd. 12 As regards anything besides these, my son, take a warning: To the making of many books there is no end, and much devotion [to them] is wearisome to the flesh.
13 The conclusion of the matter, everything having been heard, is: Fear the [true] God and keep his commandments. For this is the whole [obligation] of man. 14 For the [true] God himself will bring every sort of work into the judgment in relation to every hidden thing, as to whether it is good or bad“

to put it in a nutshell, the fact is that we do not live forever so we have to make the most of our life while we have it. The way to make the most of our life is to 'fear God and keep his commandments'

Everything besides the true worship of God is vanity...its pointless but the worship of God is not pointless. There is a reason why Solomon would say this and it comes down to the hope of the 'resurrection' They believed that God would resurrect them and give them life again.

Abraham was willing to offer his son because as Paul said 'he reckoned God was able to raise him from the dead' at Hebrews 11:17-19 "By faith Abraham, when he was tested, as good as offered up Isaac, ...19 But he reckoned that God was able to raise him up even from the dead"

In the book of Job we also see reference to the resurrection when Job says that from 'sheol' (the grave) God would redeem him. Job 14:13-15 “O that in Sheol you would conceal me, . . . that you would set a time limit for me and remember me! If an able-bodied man dies can he live again? . . . You will call, and I myself shall answer you. For the work of your hands you will have a yearning.”

So in this life, we get one chance to make the most of it. Everything we do, we do in vain because it will not last...everything is only temporary. We build a house and spend our whole life making it grand, but we will only enjoy it while we are alive. However, whatever we do for God while we are alive is not in vain. God remembers our work and in his due time he can return us to life...this is why the worship of God is not in vain.
Everlasting life is the hope of mankind... everlasting life is exactly what God has in store for us.

It is my belief that one is here on Earth to learn. If you believe in reincarnation, you are to learn more in that reincarnated life. The things you learn are gathered collectively within your spirit so that you know all you have learned from all lifetimes when you are in your afterlife.

EJ,
I think Ecclesiastes is perfect for what it sets out to do. It examines every way of life available to man, and points out the inherent flaws in all of them except one.

Pegg,
I think that you missed the last verse of the book. I see that you underlined the second to last verse, but would you like to comment on v 14?
Looking forward to your reply,
QM

QuestionMark said:

EJ,
Pegg,
I think that you missed the last verse of the book. I see that you underlined the second to last verse, but would you like to comment on v 14?
Looking forward to your reply,
QM

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14 For the [true] God himself will bring every sort of work into the judgment in relation to every hidden thing, as to whether it is good or bad.

Jesus gives us the understanding of this verse at Matthew 12:36-37
"I tell YOU that every unprofitable saying that men speak, they will render an account concerning it on Judgment Day; 37 for by your words you will be declared righteous, and by your words you will be condemned."

Its understandable why Solomon said to 'fear God and keep his commandments' when we understand that God judges us based on our actions and course of life. And it's his judgment of us that will determine if we are fit to obtain the everlasting life that he is offering or not.

So when Solomon says that God will bring 'every sort of work into judgement', he is talking about our life course and the things we do in our life... even the things that we keep hidden are exposed to him and so all our 'works' will be judged.

Pegg,
Do you believe that everyone will be resurrected to be judged in the last day?
Looking forward to your reply,
QM

QuestionMark said:

Pegg,
Do you believe that everyone will be resurrected to be judged in the last day?
Looking forward to your reply,
QM

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I believe that everyone deserves a second chance so yes I believe 'almost' everyone will be resurrected. Obviously some will not be such as those like Satan who outrightly fights against God and those who sin against Gods holy spirit which are said to be unforgivable. Jesus said at Matthew 12:31 “On this account I say to YOU, Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven"

However the judgement the resurrected ones receive will be based on the life course they choose 'after' their resurrection. The reason is because the bible tells us that when we die we are acquitted of our prior sins Romans 6:7 "For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin". So it would be unreasonable to say they are judged for the sins they've been acquitted from.

Also, the judgement 'day' is also known as the 'millennial rule of Christ' ... so the day of judgement will span 1,000 years which will give the resurrected ones plenty of time to learn who God is and be taught his ways and bring their life into harmony with him. Some will choose not to, some will do so gladly. God will judge them based on their decision to accept or deny him.

Pegg,
Why do you think that only those who are forgiven are resurrected?
Looking forward to your reply,
QM

QuestionMark said:

Pegg,
Why do you think that only those who are forgiven are resurrected?
Looking forward to your reply,
QM

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because when we die, whether we knew God or not, all our sins are forgiven... death is the wages for sin as Paul explained. And think about the criminal who died besides Jesus....Jesus told him that he would be with him in paradise, a man who was executed because of his criminal behavior. God is going to resurrect that man and give him an opportunity in the earthly paradise. All because of the truth that when we die, God does not hold our sins against us forever.... death is what we pay to have our sins removed.

Romans 6:7 "For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin"
Romans 6:23 For the wages sin pays is death..."

When we experience death, we have repaid our debt to God.... our sins are no more because a dead person cannot sin and a person who sins must pay for those sins with their life.

Death is the end of sin and the end of the debt we owe.

Wilso said:

I'll start by saying that I am an atheist. I'm wondering what all the different believers "believe" about the afterlife. Does a newborn baby, who dies 2 minutes after birth, stay a newborn baby in the afterlife? Does a person with severe mental retardation, suddenly become an Einstein level genius? When the lack of oxygen to their physical brain kills that last brain cell, do they enter a new realm of existence where they have total knowledge?

While we're at it, maybe someone can explain to me how a group of old men, can suddenly "decide", after 2000 years, that unbaptised newborn children that die, no longer go into limbo, but now go to heaven. How exactly does that work? And how did they tell god of their decision? Did all the ones that had been in limbo, move into heaven the next day? Were they going into limbo before Christianity existed? Or was it only after Baptism started, that children that weren't baptised were going into limbo, but now they're not?

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An inquiring mind wants to know and you ask reasonable questions.
Hope I can be of some help.

In a nut shell, there are two resurrections in the Bible.
First there is a resurrection of Christ's 'brothers' to heaven to rule with Christ for a thousand years.
[Rev 5vs9,10; 20v6; Matt 25v40; 1st Cor 15v50]
and then there is an earthly resurrection for the majority of mankind to gain everlasting life on a paradisaic earth.
[Romans 6 v7, 23; Psalm 37 vs11,29]

In the meantime, according to Jesus [John 11vs11-14], the dead sleep the deep sleep of death until resurrection morning, or the millennial-long day of Jesus ruling over earth. Jesus would have learned that the dead know nothing from: Ecc. 9v5; Psalm 6v5; 13v3; 115v17; 146v4; Daniel 12 vs2,13.

Jesus' resurrections were a small scale demonstration of what he will do on a large or grand scale during his millennial reign. All were resurrected healthy.
So Biblical afterlife is resurrection first to heaven, then the rest on earth during Jesus peaceful 1000-year reign over earth. -Acts 24v15.
So they too will have health.-Isaiah 25v8;33v24; Rev 21vs4,5

How can a group of men suddenly decide things is because as Acts 20vs29,30 mentions that after the apostles were gone, that wolf-like clergy, dressed in sheep's clothing, would fleece the flock of God.
Jesus forewarned us that genuine Christians [wheat] would grow together over the centuries with fake Christians [weeds/tares] until the harvest time of separation, or the time of separation of Matthew 25vs31,32.

Now is the time of 2nd Thess 2vs2-8 when the man of the cloth that is in opposition to God will find himself sitting in the 'temple' [houses of worship] showing himself that he is God, when he is really anti-God.
Mark 7vs7,13

UR,
You forgot to mention those who are resurrected to eternal torment because they hardened their hearts against God's mercy.
Looking forward to your reply,
QM

ellenjanuary said:

So what is this claptrap about eternal damnation? There is but a single link from the OT to the NT about eternal damnation
their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched
Mark 9:48. Significant enough to be mentioned once, by JC himself; to be in its own paragraph - and yet, knowing this significance makes hell impossible.

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'Worm does not die' sounds as if worms have everlasting life or are death proof, but like Mark when Isaiah 66v24 mentions worms not dying that would be consistent with the NT Gehenna [hellfire] burning garbage dump of destruction. Fire eliminates and so do worms. What the fires of Gehenna do not consume or incinerate the worms would finish off.

2nd Thess 1v9 equates punishment with 'everlasting destruction' and so does Psalm 92v7. So the everlasting punishment for the goat-like ones of Matthew 25v46 is everlasting destruction or annihilation.

Even Satan will be destroyed according to Hebrews 2v14 B.

QuestionMark said:

UR,
You forgot to mention those who are resurrected to eternal torment because they hardened their hearts against God's mercy.
Looking forward to your reply,
QM

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Except for those of Matthew 12v32; Hebrews 6vs4-6, the rest will be resurrected. - Acts 24v15; Romans 6v7

Please notice Rev 20v10; 21v8 because the eternal torment is: second death or death with no resurrection. Second death or destruction.- Heb 2v14 B.
Or as Jeremiah [51v57] says a perpetual sleep and not wake up.

Please also notice Matthew 18 vs30,34 because jailers were referred to as tormentors. Both at Matthew and Revelation use the word 'torment' not the word 'torture'. In the first century a jailer was called a tormentor, not a torturer because just being confined in jail was the torment.

So Satan and the goat-like ones [Matt 25v32] destroyed can not escape being confined to second death.

UR,
Did you just say that those who go to hell don't suffer?
Confused at your ambiguity,
QM

QuestionMark said:

UR,
Did you just say that those who go to hell don't suffer?
Confused at your ambiguity,
QM

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hell is not the place its made out to be

hell in the bible literally means the grave...although its taught to be something more sinister then the grave hell is a place where we 'rest in peace'

Also, if you take into considering that the 'dead are conscious of nothing at all' as Solomon states in Ecclesiastes, then the dead do not suffer....how can they suffer is they are not conscious?

Eccl 9:5 'For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all...'

Do you see how the idea that people suffer forever is just not in harmony with the scriptures?