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What & Where is the "Truth" ?

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend Zadok,

Who then is responsible for the damages done? And are we to be unconcerned with bringing down all radio and TV communications (including police and emergency) within a hundred miles? BTW The FCC get really upset when laws they oversee are broken even if it is just some unsupervised high school students.

Zadok

You miss the point by miles.
Who is taking responsibility for the birds dying for the tress dying due to this telecom signals from towers of mobile phones.
The universe is mind created and that mind is in the form of humans and so every human is a product of evolution which is eternal.
Where does the buck stop.
It never stops. We has humans have evolved and evolution will carry on further and we may be in some other form another time and in the process those who transcend their minds are able to get out of this cycle of evolution.
Those who remain guided by their minds will never find that balance in life to be himself by knowing what the self is and so their karma cycle keeps going eternally till evolution carries them to its next level.

Love & rgds
 
PH,
You're interesting. When I was in high school I knew a guy who was fabulous at soccer, spent all his time playing and loved every minute. He played pro for a while. His facebook profile says "Religion: Soccer". I think you must be pretty darn good at math, because it seems like your world. :) I admire mathematicians but obviously can't hold a conversation on your level so you must condescend I'm afraid.

Let's start with your most profound statement, "Mathematics does not come to be; it is." How do you know that mathematics does not come to be? In the Bible in the gospel of John a very similar statement is made saying "Without Him nothing was made that has been made", applying the eternal nature of God. Did mathematics exist before there was two of something (Does it work in a singularity?) I know that physics breaks down in a singularity, shouldn't math also? How can math describe something when there is only one thing? As an aside, I'd like to challenge your idea that material can be produced from nothing on principle that you would have to have a perfect understanding of all things in order to be sure that the material comes from nothing.

But physics must be able to describe the mind if it can describe the universe in which the brain resides. (Unless there's a mystical soul)
I think the soul is already mystical enough. You keep talking about math and physics describing consciousness (You do not have a soul, you are a soul). What does the function 'you' consist of? When we make a computer program (or a collection of them, say the internet) does that mean we create consciousness? And if so, how is that described in terms of mathematics and physics?

Just to be clear, the claim you've made is that math and physics describes consciousness and I think you've still fallen short of a good description of how math and physics can even account for themselves let alone the mind that invented them (After all, math and physics are carried out in the mind). Once you get done doing all the diligence for these claims you'll also have to deal with the fallibility of the human mind. What if the whole thing is a powerful delusion? How would you know the difference?

Looking forward to your reply,
QM
 

chinu

chinu
so we must trust to God's "WORD" if we want to finally reach real truth,

"WORD" Do you know what is ment by "WORD" in bible ?

This "word" is not the thing of repeatation, this "word" is ment by some "Sound wave" which is flowing inside everybody like current, through which we are connected to this whole universe, the means to listen this "word" are within.

Other wise if one could try the repeatation of any God name for thousand of years, than also one can never know the divine truth.

According to Christ:

Behold, there went out a sower to sow; And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up. And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth: But when the sun was up, it scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away. And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit. And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some a hundred. And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. . . .
The sower soweth the Word. And these are they by the way side, where the Word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the Word that was sown in their hearts. And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the Word, immediately receive it with gladness; and have no root in themselves, and so endure for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the Word's sake, immediately they are offended. And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the Word, and the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the Word, and it become unfruitful. And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the Word and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.- MARK 4:4-9, 14-20 (Christ)

_/\_Chinu.
 
Chinu,
I see that you are a Sikh and you quote Christ so you must be telling others to trust in his authority about this statement, so how do you contend with other statements of Christ such as these:

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,f you did it to me.’

41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Looking forward to your reply,
QM
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
What makes us happy or what makes us right?

I think whatever makes us and everyone else happy, that is the Truth.

If something makes only a group of people happy, while it is unfair and causes unhappiness for others, then for sure, without a doubt, that is falsehood and must be rejected.

Is it better to be right than to be happy? Most conclude that it is better to be happy than to be right.

I think, it is wrong to try to prove to be right.
For in that approach, there is selfishness, not reality.


I have posted many times and have not been understood – the first step to truth (assuming the truth will make us free thus freedom is truth) is discipline.

Certain discipline and laws are needed for freedom and comfort of everyone.
For example, if there was no law that enforced people not to steal, then people were not safe.
 

bhaktajan

Active Member
God is the Absolute Supreme Personality of Godhead.
Because God is Absolute, He is his own Person.
That Absolute Person must be known precisely as he Absolute exists ---all other forms/thoughts/Ideas of God are only indications of that Absolute Person.

God's Absolute Personality of Godhead Status indicates that He is absolutely His own Persona. This absolute status is only known through the Vedas where His Absolute Personality is spelt out.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::
On the other hand:

When all varigated phenomena is erased,
when all Space is erased,
when all time is erased . . .

A] there still exists the potential for "Three-Dimensions".

B] there still exists the potential for "Locomotion"

By my use of the appellation "Potential", I am saying that even in a situation devoid of matter & energy & time & Space . . . there is still Potential for "Three-Dimensions" along with "Locomotion" ---irregardless of who/what/how initiates creation or whether there is an absolute state that transcends material phenomena ---there exists as a pre-creation/substratum/pre-requisite meta-physical blank page that ALLOWS for even empty space to occupy itself before its creative play:

"Three-Dimensions" along with "Locomotion" lay fallow until it is utilised ---yet interestingly, never are these "3-Dimensions" along with "Locomotion" actually a manifest; they don't manifest as entities unto them selves and yet they underlie all potential possibilities.

You can't measure "Three-Dimensions" along with "Locomotion".
You can't make them under your control ---they are a nuetral state that allows even the void to come and go as epochs pass into oblivion again and again.

When all is erased there sits "Three-Dimensions" along with "Locomotion"; selflessly, or as the prime self?

C] there still exists the potential for "onomatopoeia"
[onomatopoeia = the naming of a thing or action by a vocal imitation of the sound associated with it (such as buzz or hiss). Onomatopoeia may also refer to the use of words whose sound suggests the sense.
from Gk. onomatopoiia "the making of a name or word" (in imitation of a sound associated with the thing being named), from onomatopoios, from onoma (gen. onomatos) "word, name" (see 'name') + a derivative of poiein "compose, make" (see 'poet').]

"The Material World according to the Vedas & Bhagavad-gita"
The "8 elements" (From gross to Subtile) that compose all creation:
Earth,
water,
fire,
air,
ether,

Mind,
intelligence,
false-ego.

The above 8 elements all exist within an all-encompassing void ---that cannot be seperated from these "Elements" ---these two comprise the topic called "Duality".

The 8 "Elements" are thrown into flux by [as per vedanta writ] the ever fluxing influence of the "Three Gunas":

(This is Bhaktajan's comparison):
"Raja-guna = YING" //+//
Tama-guna = YANG . . . //+// . . .
Sattva-guna = Maintenance]

In the material world there are these 8 elements and the space that it occupies.
The Three modes-of-nature [the "Three Gunas"] are the underlying mechanics of the combination(s) of these elements . . . all thus, causing TIME to transpire.

ADD TO THE ABOVE SCHEMATIC:
Jiva-atma [lit. individual-soul] The Conscious Individual Soul = animated self-centered sensual-gratification seeking creatures whose bodies are composed of the above delineated inanimate 8 elements.

Brahman = the void/Space
and/or
Brahman = the individual 'knot' of an individual soul [1/10,000th the size of the tip of hair & brighter than Ten Suns]

Param-atma = [lit. supreme-soul aka God omnipresent as the life-force nucleus of each animate soul].

Bhagavan = The Suprema Persona of Godhead Transcendental.

The Hindu Trinity [3-Aspects of God self-expansion that comprises the Material (and BTW, the Spiritual Energies too)]:
1 Brahman
2 Param-atma
3 Bhagavan

The Jiv-atma (and BTW, the Spiritual Energies too) is composed of three qualities ---
"Sat-chitta-ananda":
1 Sat = Eternality (non-material 8 elements)
2 Chitta = Cognisance (aka, consciousness)
3 Ananda = Bliss

The Jiv-atma is free to seek out ABSOLUTE HELL and its many permutations
or
The Absolute Personality of Godhead as revealed in the Vedas . . . ASAP.
 

Zadok

Zadok
IT,
What do you think would make everyone happy?

Looking forward,
QM

I thought to progress with my thought of happiness and truth. Let me therefore take a very common thought and example of happiness.

Who would not be happy with a strong healthy body? Most of us think if we were strong and healthy (even sexy) that we would most certainly be happy. In order to have and maintain a strong healthy (sexy) body we must discipline ourselves and make choices. Among such choices we discover that we must eat healthy to be healthy – big surprise! Most of us are happy to eat deserts. Children are a good example. They prefer unhealthy foods whenever given the option. Eating candy makes them happy; at least an immediate happiness. But eating lots of candy makes your body fat, unsexy and unhealthy.

So one must choose their unhappiness – ether they are unhappy with what they want to eat or they are unhappy looking in the mirror at them self. There is another option – they can lie and ignore the truth and be happy – ether by eating what makes them happy and ignoring mirrors or being happy with what is in the mirror and ignoring their love of candy. So what is better truth or happiness?

There is still one more option that eludes almost everybody that concerns being happy and seeking the truth. But seldom able to get past the first paradox of happiness and truth they remain forever stuck with unhappiness because of the conflict that exist between truth and undisciplined happiness.

Zadok
 

Orias

Left Hand Path
Truth is fallible.

All eyes see, though not all eyes open.
 
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Zadok

Zadok
God is the Absolute Supreme Personality of Godhead.
Because God is Absolute, He is his own Person.
That Absolute Person must be known precisely as he Absolute exists ---all other forms/thoughts/Ideas of God are only indications of that Absolute Person.

God's Absolute Personality of Godhead Status indicates that He is absolutely His own Persona. This absolute status is only known through the Vedas where His Absolute Personality is spelt out.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::
On the other hand:

When all varigated phenomena is erased,
when all Space is erased,
when all time is erased . . .

A] there still exists the potential for "Three-Dimensions".

B] there still exists the potential for "Locomotion"

...

or
The Absolute Personality of Godhead as revealed in the Vedas . . . ASAP.

Let me make this simple. Anyone is best known by their closest friends. Why because they have common things that they do with their friends. There is an old Native American saying, “You cannot know anyone till you have walked in their “shoes” for 3 months.”

Want to know G-d? Walk his path and do as he would do. We LDS call it “CTR” which means Choose The Right. Evangelicals call it “WWJD” which means What Would Jesus Do. I understand that some people are so confused that they have great difficulty figuring out what is the right thing to do.

I disagree a little with bhaktajan – Most of the time I do not think you have to read something for figure out what is the right thing to do. But under such circumstances it is because they think themselves different and therefore it is okay for them to do what they do but if everybody did what they do – then there is a problem.

Therefore my points is: We learn of G-d (or do not learn) by what we do. Reading stuff may give us ideas but I submit that until we act and do – what we think we know is superficial.

Zadok
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
PH,
You're interesting. When I was in high school I knew a guy who was fabulous at soccer, spent all his time playing and loved every minute. He played pro for a while. His facebook profile says "Religion: Soccer". I think you must be pretty darn good at math, because it seems like your world. :) I admire mathematicians but obviously can't hold a conversation on your level so you must condescend I'm afraid.
Thank you, although I don't focus on the abstract maths that much. Physics and computational science is a lot more practical.

Let's start with your most profound statement, "Mathematics does not come to be; it is." How do you know that mathematics does not come to be?


In the Bible in the gospel of John a very similar statement is made saying "Without Him nothing was made that has been made", applying the eternal nature of God.
Because mathematics, unlike God, is defined, and is an entirely abstract concept. "Courage" as a concept does not begin.

Did mathematics exist before there was two of something (Does it work in a singularity?) I know that physics breaks down in a singularity, shouldn't math also?
Physics breaks down because the mathematics starts producing nonsensical answers. However, physics is not defined to be true, and so this is an indication that the physics is wrong.

How can math describe something when there is only one thing?
To quote the wonderful Carl Sagan, "The simplest thoughts, like the concept of the number one, have an elaborate logical underpinning." :D

As an aside, I'd like to challenge your idea that material can be produced from nothing on principle that you would have to have a perfect understanding of all things in order to be sure that the material comes from nothing.
Actually, it is uncertainty of all things that enables us to do this. Quantum Mechanics tells us that we cannot know the energy of a system precisly over an arbitarily short timescale. Because of this, it is a possibility that very large amounts of energy can appear out of nowhere, so long as it disappears again before we can measure it.
I think the soul is already mystical enough. You keep talking about math and physics describing consciousness (You do not have a soul, you are a soul). What does the function 'you' consist of? When we make a computer program (or a collection of them, say the internet) does that mean we create consciousness? And if so, how is that described in terms of mathematics and physics?
The concept of "me" exists as a consequence of modelling the world. My brain is a computer, and what it does is the following: It processes the inputs given to it by the senses, and then outputs commands to muscles, etc, in order to ensure its own survival. In order to do this, it divides the world into discrete entities, and sets about predicting how those entities behave, and then working backwards from the predictions to get a good outcome. However, here the magic happens; It realizes the actions of one of the entities it is predicting matches up exactly with its predictions, and it is this entity it dubs "me."

If a computer program were written that could successfully do that, it would be almost certainly conscious. However, communicating with it is another matter entirely.
Just to be clear, the claim you've made is that math and physics describes consciousness and I think you've still fallen short of a good description of how math and physics can even account for themselves let alone the mind that invented them (After all, math and physics are carried out in the mind).
Math isn't really carried out, as such. It is a structure that is explored, rather than the computation that is used to explore a structure.

Once you get done doing all the diligence for these claims you'll also have to deal with the fallibility of the human mind. What if the whole thing is a powerful delusion? How would you know the difference?
It can't be a delusion, because it is defined to be true.
 
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InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
IT,
What do you think would make everyone happy?

Looking forward,
QM

I believe peace, unity and comfort for all people. Getting rid of selfishness would bring happiness for everyone.

As Baha'u'llah said:

"That one indeed is a man who, today, dedicateth himself to the service of the entire human race. The Great Being saith: Blessed and happy is he that ariseth to promote the best interests of the peoples and kindreds of the earth. "


"O ye that dwell on earth! The religion of God is for love and unity; make it not the cause of enmity or dissension. In the eyes of men of insight and the beholders of the Most Sublime Vision, whatsoever are the effective means for safeguarding and promoting the happiness and welfare of the children of men have already been revealed by the Pen of Glory."

"Happy are they that observe God’s precepts; happy are they that have recognized the Truth; happy are they that judge with fairness in all matters and hold fast to the Cord of My inviolable Justice."

"Happy are they; happy every refugee that seeketh thy shelter, in his sufferings in the path of God, the Lord of this wondrous Day!"


"Blessed the slumberer who is awakened by My Breeze. Blessed the lifeless one who is quickened through My reviving breaths. Blessed the eye that is solaced by gazing at My beauty. Blessed the wayfarer who directeth his steps towards the Tabernacle of My glory and majesty. Blessed the distressed one who seeketh refuge beneath the shadow of My canopy. Blessed the sore athirst who hasteneth to the soft-flowing waters of My loving-kindness. Blessed the insatiate soul who casteth away his selfish desires for love of Me and taketh his place at the banquet table which I have sent down from the heaven of divine bounty for My chosen ones. Blessed the abased one who layeth fast hold on the cord of My glory; and the needy one who entereth beneath the shadow of the Tabernacle of My wealth. Blessed the ignorant one who seeketh the fountain of My knowledge; and the heedless one who cleaveth to the cord of My remembrance. Blessed the soul that hath been raised to life through My quickening breath and hath gained admittance into My heavenly Kingdom. Blessed the man whom the sweet savours of reunion with Me have stirred and caused to draw nigh unto the Dayspring of My Revelation. Blessed the ear that hath heard and the tongue that hath borne witness and the eye that hath seen and recognized the Lord Himself, in His great glory and majesty, invested with grandeur and dominion. Blessed are they that have attained His presence. Blessed the man who hath sought enlightenment from the Day-Star of My Word. Blessed he who hath attired his head with the diadem of My love. Blessed is he who hath heard of My grief and hath arisen to aid Me among My people. Blessed is he who hath laid down his life in My path and hath borne manifold hardships for the sake of My Name. Blessed the man who, assured of My Word, hath arisen from among the dead to celebrate My praise. Blessed is he that hath been enraptured by My wondrous melodies and hath rent the veils asunder through the potency of My might. Blessed is he who hath remained faithful to My Covenant, and whom the things of the world have not kept back from attaining My Court of holiness. Blessed is the man who hath detached himself from all else but Me, hath soared in the atmosphere of My love, hath gained admittance into My Kingdom, gazed upon My realms of glory, quaffed the living waters of My bounty, hath drunk his fill from the heavenly river of My loving providence, acquainted himself with My Cause, apprehended that which I concealed within the treasury of My Words, and hath shone forth from the horizon of divine knowledge engaged in My praise and glorification. Verily, he is of Me. Upon him rest My mercy, My loving-kindness, My bounty and My glory." -Baha'u'llah, The Most Holy Tablet
 
IT,
I'm not so sure that getting rid of selfishness is all that is required to make everyone happy. I think that there have been enough examples of people who selflessly worship trees or the sun. But you quoted some passages about God, so I assume that you think not only being selfless but also worshiping God is important.

I believe Jesus came to earth as God in flesh, what do you think about Jesus? He taught against selfishness too, but replaced selfishness with love saying "Love the Lord your God with all your heart" and "Love your neighbor as yourself". Jesus also said "I am the truth". So what are your thoughts on Jesus?

Looking forward to your reply,
QM
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
IT,
I'm not so sure that getting rid of selfishness is all that is required to make everyone happy. I think that there have been enough examples of people who selflessly worship trees or the sun. But you quoted some passages about God, so I assume that you think not only being selfless but also worshiping God is important.
Agreed.

I believe Jesus came to earth as God in flesh, what do you think about Jesus? He taught against selfishness too, but replaced selfishness with love saying "Love the Lord your God with all your heart" and "Love your neighbor as yourself". Jesus also said "I am the truth". So what are your thoughts on Jesus?

Looking forward to your reply,
QM

here I collected some of the Baha'i Scriptures praising Jesus:

Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.
We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified....He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 85)


When for the second time the unmistakable signs of Israel's disintegration, abasement, subjection and annihilation had become apparent, then the sweet and holy breathings of the Spirit of God (Jesus) were shed across Jordan and the land of Galilee; the cloud of Divine pity overspread those skies, and rained down the copious waters of the spirit, and after those swelling showers that came from the most great Sea, the Holy Land put forth its perfume and blossomed with the knowledge of God. Then the solemn Gospel song rose up till it rang in the ears of those who dwell in the chambers of heaven, and at the touch of Jesus' breath the unmindful dead that lay in the graves of their ignorance lifted up their heads to receive eternal life. For the space of three years, that Luminary of perfections walked about the fields of Palestine and in the neighborhood of Jerusalem, leading all men into the dawn of redemption, teaching them how to acquire spiritual qualities and attributes well-pleasing to God. Had the people of Israel believed in that beauteous Countenance, they would have girded themselves to serve and obey Him heart and soul, and through the quickening fragrance of His Spirit they would have regained their lost vitality and gone on to new victories.

Alas, of what avail was it; they turned away and opposed Him. They rose up and tormented that Source of Divine knowledge, that Point where the Revelation had come down -- all except for a handful who, turning their faces toward God, were cleansed of the stain of this world and found their way to the heights of the placeless Realm. They inflicted every agony on that Wellspring of grace until it became impossible for Him to live in the towns, and still He lifted up the flag of salvation and solidly established the fundamentals of human righteousness, that essential basis of true civilization.



Many were the counsels of this kind that were uttered by that Dayspring of Divine wisdom, and souls who have become characterized with such attributes of holiness are the distilled essence of creation and the sources of true civilization.

Jesus, then, founded the sacred Law on a basis of moral character and complete spirituality, and for those who believed in Him He delineated a special way of life which constitutes the highest type of action on earth. And while those emblems of redemption were to outward seeming abandoned to the malevolence and persecution of their tormentors, in reality they had been delivered out of the hopeless darkness which encompassed the Jews and they shone forth in everlasting glory at the dawn of that new day.

(Abdu'l-Baha, The Secret of Divine Civilization, p. 80)


Fifty years ago no one would touch the Christian Bible in Persia. Baha'u'llah came and asked, "Why?" They said, "It is not the Word of God." He said, "You must read it with understanding of its meanings, not as those who merely recite its words." Now Baha'is all over the East read the Bible and understand its spiritual teaching. Baha'u'llah spread the Cause of Christ and opened the book of the Christians and Jews. He removed the barriers of names. He proved that all the divine Prophets taught the same reality and that to deny One is to deny the Others, for all are in perfect oneness with God.

(Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 212)

Similarly, call thou to mind the day when the Jews, who had surrounded Jesus, Son of Mary, were pressing Him to confess His claim of being the Messiah and Prophet of God, so that they might declare Him an infidel and sentence Him to death. Then, they led Him away, He Who was the Day-star of the heaven of divine Revelation, unto Pilate and Caiaphas, who was the leading divine of that age. The chief priests were all assembled in the palace, also a multitude of people who had gathered to witness His sufferings, to deride and injure Him. Though they repeatedly questioned Him, hoping that He would confess His claim, yet Jesus held His peace and spake not. Finally, an accursed of God arose and, approaching Jesus, adjured Him saying: "Didst thou not claim to be the Divine Messiah? Didst thou not say, 'I am the King of Kings, My word is the Word of God, and I am the breaker of the Sabbath day?'" Thereupon Jesus lifted up His head and said: "Beholdest thou not the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power and might?" These were His words, and yet consider how to outward seeming He was devoid of all power except that inner power which was of God and which had encompassed all that is in heaven and on earth. How can I relate all that befell Him after He spoke these words? How shall I describe their heinous behaviour towards Him? They at last heaped on His blessed Person such woes that He took His flight unto the fourth Heaven.

It is also recorded in the Gospel according to St. Luke, that on a certain day Jesus passed by a Jew who was sick of the palsy, and lay upon a couch. When the Jew saw Him, he recognized Him, and cried out for His help. Jesus said unto him: "Arise from thy bed; thy sins are forgiven thee." Certain of the Jews, standing by, protested saying: "Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" And immediately He perceived their thoughts, Jesus answering said unto them: "Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, arise, and take up thy bed, and walk; or to say, thy sins are forgiven thee? that ye may know that the Son of Man hath power on earth to forgive sins."[1] This is the real sovereignty, and such is the power of God's chosen Ones! All these things which We have repeatedly mentioned, and the details which We have cited from divers sources, have no other purpose but to enable thee to grasp the meaning of the allusions in the utterances of the chosen Ones of God, lest certain of these utterances cause thy feet to falter and thy heart to be dismayed.
[1 Cf. Luke 5:18-26.]

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 132)

Therefore, know thou of a certainty that these Luminaries of heavenly majesty, though their dwelling be in the dust, yet their true habitation is the seat of glory in the realms above. Though bereft of all earthly possessions, yet they soar in the realms of immeasurable riches. And whilst sore tried in the grip of the enemy, they are seated on the right hand of power and celestial dominion. Amidst the darkness of their abasement there shineth upon them the light of unfading glory, and upon their helplessness are showered the tokens of an invincible sovereignty.
Thus Jesus, Son of Mary, whilst seated one day and speaking in the strain of the Holy Spirit, uttered words such as these: "O people! My food is the grass of the field, wherewith I satisfy my hunger. My bed is the dust, my lamp in the night the light of the moon, and my steed my own feet. Behold, who on earth is richer than I?" By the righteousness of God! Thousands of treasures circle round this poverty, and a myriad kingdoms of glory yearn for such abasement! Shouldst thou attain to a drop of the ocean of the inner meaning of these words, thou wouldst surely forsake the world and all that is therein, and, as the Phoenix wouldst consume thyself in the flames of the undying Fire.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 130)
 
IT,
You think very highly of Jesus, but do you believe He was God in the flesh? Is Jesus truth? Is Jesus the only way to the Father?

I don't want to stray from the topic, which is why I ask "Is Jesus truth?".

Looking forward,
QM
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
You think very highly of Jesus, but do you believe He was God in the flesh?

The Baha'i belief with regards to Jesus, is exactly what the Bible says.

Jesus is described with several verses in the Bible, and each one reveals a view.
However there has been different opinions with this regard, among the Christian scholars.

To further explain this the Baha'i scriptures, has used an analogy.
In the analogy, God is likened to the Sun, as the Source of Reality.
The Manifestations of God, who are prophets, are likened to Mirrors who perfectly reflect the light of the Sun of Reality.

From the scriptures, I place some quotes here:

"...the Reality of Christ was a clear and polished mirror of the greatest purity and fineness. The Sun of Reality, the Essence of Divinity, reflected itself in this mirror and manifested its light and heat in it; but from the exaltation of its holiness, and the heaven of its sanctity, the Sun did not descend to dwell and abide in the mirror. No, it continues to subsist in its exaltation and sublimity, while appearing and becoming manifest in the mirror in beauty and perfection.
Now if we say that we have seen the Sun in two mirrors—one the Christ and one the Holy Spirit—that is to say, that we have seen three Suns, one in heaven and the two others on the earth, we speak truly. And if we say that there is one Sun, and it is pure singleness, and has no partner and equal, we again speak truly.
The epitome of the discourse is that the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Reality—that is to say, the Essence of Oneness, with its infinite perfections and attributes—became visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multiplied—for the Sun is one—but it appeared in the mirror. This is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son,” meaning that the Sun is visible and manifest in this mirror.
The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which becomes visible and evident in the Reality of Christ. The Sonship station is the heart of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is the station of the spirit of Christ. Hence it has become certain and proved that the Essence of Divinity is absolutely unique and has no equal, no likeness, no equivalent.
This is the signification of the Three Persons of the Trinity. If it were otherwise, the foundations of the Religion of God would rest upon an illogical proposition which the mind could never conceive, and how can the mind be forced to believe a thing which it cannot conceive? A thing cannot be grasped by the intelligence except when it is clothed in an intelligible form; otherwise, it is but an effort of the imagination.
It has now become clear, from this explanation, what is the meaning of the Three Persons of the Trinity. The Oneness of God is also proved." Abdulbaha - Some Answered Questions


Is Jesus truth?

Yes, He is.

Is Jesus the only way to the Father?

Not according to the Baha’i belief. The Baha'i belief is that, God has manifested Himself through His prophets in every age. Therefore in every age, while the same message is renewed, but also according to the capacity of people and the requirements of age, new teachings come. The Baha'is believe that for this Age, Baha'u'llah is the most recent guidance of God.
 
IT,

Jesus says "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me", how can you say your belief is exactly what the Bible says when it clearly claims that Jesus is not the only way to the Father?

Looking forward to your reply,
QM
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Jesus says "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me", how can you say your belief is exactly what the Bible says when it clearly claims that Jesus is not the only way to the Father?

Looking forward to your reply,
QM

I knew you would ask that question :)
You have a logical point.

Jesus was reflecting the word of God.
Again, lets go back to the analogy of the Sun and the mirrors, if you don't mind.

God is the Truth and He manifests Himself in the Mirrors who are the prophets in every age.
Therefore the Sun of Truth appears in every age, reflecting but the same Truth.
Therefore if we say, that the Sun that manifested in another age, is the return of the same Sun that manifested, in this age, that is correct for they all reflect the same Truth.

For example, consider how the prophet Elijah had returned as the John the Baptist according to the Bible.

That return or transformation is a spiritual reality which in the Baha'i scriptures are mentioned as the manifestation of the same truth. As Baha'u'llah said:

"Purge thy sight, therefore, from all earthly limitations, that thou mayest behold them all as the bearers of one Name, the exponents of one Cause, the manifestations of one Self, and the revealers of one Truth, and that thou mayest apprehend the mystic “return” of the Words of God as unfolded by these utterances." Baha'u'llah, Book of Iqan

Now, with this concept of "return" Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ which was promised at the end of Age. As Baha'u'llah said:

"O Jews! If ye be intent on crucifying once again Jesus, the Spirit of God, put Me to death, for He hath once more, in My person, been made manifest unto you. Deal with Me as ye wish, for I have vowed to lay down My life in the path of God. I will fear no one, though the powers of earth and heaven be leagued against Me. " Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah


So, Just as Jesus said that "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me", Baha'u'llah basically gave the same message:


"The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration." Baha'u'llah, The Most Holy Book
 
IT,
I understand the analogy, that God is the truth like the sun is the source of light, and every prophet speaks the truth like mirrors reflecting the sun.

That's not the problem though :)

Jesus isn't just a mirror, Jesus is the word of God, Jesus is the light of the world, Jesus is the fullness of the image of God. He isn't just a prophet, he is God. He isn't just a mirror, He's the sun.

In order to believe in the Christian Bible, you must believe that Jesus is God. How do you reconcile this?

Looking forward,
QM
 
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