• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Can 500+ Eyewitnesses Be Wrong?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Jaymes

The cake is a lie
I'm using definition 1 as well; I was convinced I had seen an alligator and a pteradactyl. ;) (You know, I kind of wish I was making this up. I was such a weird kid.)
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Jensa said:
Just because someone would die for their beliefs it doesn't make them right. I hear this argued often; 'they'd die for it, they must be right!' People that aren't Christians die for their beliefs. Therefor, they must be right as well, yes? China has spent who knows how much trying to suppress or wipe out religions in their occupied areas, killing priests and sometimes burning them alive for trying to protect the temples.
And you can add Tibetans to that list; I will never be able to eradicate Tiananmen Square from my memory - although that was not just about Religion.........:(
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
AV1611 said:
In view of the fact that 1 Corinthians 15 mentions over 500 eyewitnesses to Jesus' resurrection, is that enough to convict Him of same?
Consider the source - and the fact that it was hearsay written decades after the purported event. As evidence it is worthless.
 

Malus 12:9

Temporarily Deactive.
Odd how hundreds of people can still vouch for it, as Deut said, "decades after the puported event". And give the same basic explanation.

Lose a little in translation, how is it supposed to be accurate?
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Can 500+ Eyewitnesses Be Wrong? - Yes.

Have you never seen a conjurer on television ?:)
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
  1. Paul says 500+ were eyewitnesses
  2. The Roman Empire took action to suppress this
  3. Some of the higher-ranking Jews themselves did, too
  4. Many, if not most, of these eyewitnesses were put to death

  1. Jerry says 5,000 saw his time-travel to messopotamia
  2. The messopotamians started a whole campaign against Jerry-viewers
  3. Some of the higher-ranking Zarathustrians did too.
  4. Many, if not most, were tickled.
With so much hostile witnesses against this claim, how did it grow?
You mean like Islam in the US is growing despite hostility? Or Wicca (which is also growing despite hostility)?

Acts 7 for Stephen; Acts 12 for James, the brother of John; Hebrews 11:35-40; Fox's Book of Martyrs for many others.
All three are written by Paul.

You got that right! And what they were trying to suppress was the story of Jesus' resurrection. Even Herod (at the beginning of the story) committed and act of infanticide to keep this story from even happening in the first place.
The beginning of which story? You've offered no corroboration for any of your claims beyond "Paul said so".

No offense taken. We ARE a cult, by definition. But you also have to take into consideration that this "cult" predicted the death, burial, and resurrection of it's own Leader, not to mention their Leader prediction His closest followers denying Him.
According to the gospels, none of the deciples managed to get it. Of course, you can't establish historically that there was a Joshua bin Joseph, much less that he predicted his death.

BTW, I predicted my own time-travel to Messopotamia.
 

robtex

Veteran Member
AV1611 said:
There ARE names mentioned. Stephen for one.

IF anyone else wrote about the account (and I would have to guess that they did), then two primary things happened:

  • Luke, under divine guidance, chose not to use them - (Luke 1:1-2)
  • They faded into obscurity over time
As for why their names aren't mentioned outside of Scripture, I don't know. Other than the fact that no official document was drawn up (it wouldn't have been necessary, or very smart, either --- Saul would have been knocking at your door).


Can you please name the source for the names listed.

No other books were written. None discovered none found. The bible is not an offical document is it a set of revealed documents. If there were other witness someone would have recorded names and literature would have been written.


Imagine if you and I were opposing lawyers in a law case. The case doesn't matter but to "prove" my case I tell the judge I have 500 witness. The judge turns to you and say..."hey he has 500 witness case closed." No attempt is made to verify that I have 500 witness, none are identified no opinions are collected from ANY of the witness (as they have not even been identified) but hey 500 is 500 and this guy says it so so case closed.


That is what it is like for you to say Paul had 500 witness. Further complicating Paul's claim, Paul says he has 500 witnesses to an event I want to point out again he did not witness which makes me wonder how he could identify the witness who obviously never came forward.


As footnote, If Paul was such a murdering oppressessive tyrant that you make him out to be and is the primary agent of Jesus and your God what does that say about Jesus and your God?
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
robtex said:
Imagine if you and I were opposing lawyers in a law case. The case doesn't matter but to "prove" my case I tell the judge I have 500 witness. The judge turns to you and say..."hey he has 500 witness case closed." No attempt is made to verify that I have 500 witness, none are identified no opinions are collected from ANY of the witness (as they have not even been identified) but hey 500 is 500 and this guy says it so so case closed.
Paul didn't say he had 500 witnesses. He himself had killed some (if not all) of them.

Acts 26:10 = WHICH THING I ALSO DID IN JERUSALEM: AND MANY OF THE SAINTS DID I SHUT UP IN PRISON, HAVING RECEIVED AUTHORITY FROM CHIEF PRIESTS; AND WHEN THEY WERE PUT TO DEATH, I GAVE MY VOICE AGAINST THEM.

As footnote, If Paul was such a murdering oppressessive tyrant that you make him out to be and is the primary agent of Jesus and your God what does that say about Jesus and your God?
That God is willing to forgive even you and I for our sins.

Hebrews 7:25 = WHEREFORE HE IS ABLE TO SAVE THEM TO THE UTTERMOST THAT COME UNTO GOD BY HIM, SEEING HE EVER LIVETH TO MAKE INTERCESSION FOR THEM.
 

robtex

Veteran Member
AV1611 said:
Paul didn't say he had 500 witnesses. He himself had killed some (if not all) of them.

Acts 26:10 = WHICH THING I ALSO DID IN JERUSALEM: AND MANY OF THE SAINTS DID I SHUT UP IN PRISON, HAVING RECEIVED AUTHORITY FROM CHIEF PRIESTS; AND WHEN THEY WERE PUT TO DEATH, I GAVE MY VOICE AGAINST THEM.

That God is willing to forgive even you and I for our sins.

Hebrews 7:25 = WHEREFORE HE IS ABLE TO SAVE THEM TO THE UTTERMOST THAT COME UNTO GOD BY HIM, SEEING HE EVER LIVETH TO MAKE INTERCESSION FOR THEM.
Again, please give a source listing the 500 witness. I am disputing that there were 500 witnesses.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
robtex said:
Again, please give a source listing the 500 witness. I am disputing that there were 500 witnesses.
I must admit I can find no number given anywhere....:help:
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
I still see it as inferior to the 5,000 witnesses that saw me in ancient messopotamia. I killed some of them too :)
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
you know hundreds of Lakota people saw White Buffalo Woman when she first appeared to the people. They talked with her, learned from her and watched as she turned back into a Buffalo and rejoined her own nation. They still have the sacred pipe she gave to them...
They have been more than willing to die for their faith...

naturally this isn't going to make you any more likely to beleive my religion. :cool:

wa:do
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ori

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
robtex said:
Again, please give a source listing the 500 witness. I am disputing that there were 500 witnesses.
1 Corinthians 15:6 = AFTER THAT, HE WAS SEEN OF ABOVE FIVE HUNDRED BRETHREN AT ONCE; OF WHOM THE GREATER PART REMAIN UNTO THIS PRESENT, BUT SOME ARE FALLEN ASLEEP.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
JerryL said:
I still see it as inferior to the 5,000 witnesses that saw me in ancient messopotamia. I killed some of them too :)
They did write about you, Jerry; but Napoleon dismissed you as a figment of their imaginations, and tore up the documents.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
painted wolf said:
you know hundreds of Lakota people saw White Buffalo Woman when she first appeared to the people. They talked with her, learned from her and watched as she turned back into a Buffalo and rejoined her own nation. They still have the sacred pipe she gave to them...
They have been more than willing to die for their faith...

naturally this isn't going to make you any more likely to beleive my religion. :cool:

wa:do
Did a Lakotan kill many of his own for reporting it, then write a book and admit it?
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
AV1611 said:
1 Corinthians 15:6 = AFTER THAT, HE WAS SEEN OF ABOVE FIVE HUNDRED BRETHREN AT ONCE; OF WHOM THE GREATER PART REMAIN UNTO THIS PRESENT, BUT SOME ARE FALLEN ASLEEP.
Shouting makes self serving claims to hearsay evidense no less worthless.
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
They did write about you, Jerry; but Napoleon dismissed you as a figment of their imaginations, and tore up the documents.
So then you agree that I've time-travelled to ancient messopotamia?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top