Catholic Church has never Changed doctrine.

ChrisP · Sep 3, 2005

Katzpur said:
Patiently waiting. (Am I being ignored or was I just forgotten?)

Sorry Katz noone has an answer. Eve is a prefigurement of every woman. She is THE original woman. A women (and men) descend from her. Eve's biblical role is to begin human existence and also introduce sin into the world. I don't think that has any parrallels with Mary as Jesus was salvation.

ChrisP · Sep 3, 2005

Scott1 said:
Good question UD... I'm curious how James will answer in light of:
From the COMMON DECLARATION SIGNED IN THE VATICAN BY POPE JOHN PAUL II AND PATRIARCH BARTHOLOMEW I.

Let me start by saying I am not a Christian.

I'm afraid I don't understand how a schism can occur in a religion such as Christianity or any abrahamic religion. All Denominations believe that the Bible is the word of God, and even if interpretations differ slightly they should still consider themselves brothers in Christ. When people as principled and idealistic as Christians come together there will always be conflict, and these conflicts can be resolved with the Word of God.

I understand that scripturally Christians should not fellowship with those that teach in contradiction to God's word. Christianity is a religion founded upon tolerance of fellow man and universal agape type love. I hope that christianity as a whole manages to unite under gods word to promote agape throughout our lands.

Agape: http://www.religioustolerance.org/gl_a.htm

Feathers in Hair · Sep 3, 2005

*sad face* But I thought Lillith was the original woman?

ChrisP · Sep 3, 2005

FeathersinHair said:
*sad face* But I thought Lillith was the original woman?

http://www.webcom.com/~gnosis/lillith.html

Did you mean this Lillith?

But she gives me bad dreams

Scott1 · Sep 3, 2005

SnaleSpace said:
I hope that christianity as a whole manages to unite under gods word to promote agape throughout our lands.

Amen! Bless you SnaleSpace!:clap

Feathers in Hair · Sep 3, 2005

(Ooops, sorry, SnaleSpace! I forget that woman-focused mythology tends to paint her differently than the other interpretations. Here's a sample of how she's percieved, strangely well put for what's basically an aromatherapy site.) (Ooo, I should put a warning with that link that it does contain nekkid people, even if they're painted.)

Well, both of you are getting frubals from me! I might not have caught that wonderful line if you hadn't applauded it, Scott, and I'm very glad you said it in the first place, Snale!

Katzpur · Sep 4, 2005

Uncertaindrummer said:
Sorry I haven't been able to get on. Anyway, read Genesis 3: 15, but also, do you even believe in types at all? Because surely if you don't believe Jesus is the new Adam then it would make sense you don't believe Mary is the new Eve. But if you do, then why do you say Jesus is the new Adam?

Well, we don't use this terminology (i.e. "types"). So you might want to explain what you mean before we go on.

Katzpur · Sep 4, 2005

SnaleSpace said:
Sorry Katz noone has an answer. Eve is a prefigurement of every woman. She is THE original woman. A women (and men) descend from her. Eve's biblical role is to begin human existence and also introduce sin into the world. I don't think that has any parrallels with Mary as Jesus was salvation.

Well, I'd go along with you there.

Scott1 · Sep 4, 2005

Katzpur said:
Well, we don't use this terminology (i.e. "types"). So you might want to explain what you mean before we go on.

Typology.
In Greek, typos means "a blow" or "a mark left by a blow" (in John 20.25, the mark of the nails in Christ's hands are called "typoi"), or "image" or "model." For instance, if someone paints a portrait of you, you are the "typos" of the painting. In typological interpretation, the events of the Hebrew scriptures are "types" of the events of the life and teachings of Christ, that is, the events of the old testament prefigure the events and ideas of the new testament. Not only do the events in, say Jonah , have a literal meaning, say "Jonah was in the whale for three days," they also have a typological meaning, that is , they refer to some aspect in the New Testament, say "Christ was in the tomb for three days." Do you see how this works? It operates on the principle of metaphor: two events are distinct in some way but are also similar in some other way, and the meaning of the one affects the meaning of the other.
http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/GLOSSARY/TYPE.HTM

Mister Emu · Sep 4, 2005

Sorry Katz noone has an answer. Eve is a prefigurement of every woman. She is THE original woman. A women (and men) descend from her. Eve's biblical role is to begin human existence and also introduce sin into the world. I don't think that has any parrallels with Mary as Jesus was salvation.

Just as Eve helped bring sin to humanity, though it is in Adam that all die

1 Cor 15:22 "For as in Adam all die..."

Mary helped bring salvation by being the mother of Jesus, though it is in Jesus that we are made alive

"... even so in Christ shall all be made alive".

Katzpur · Sep 4, 2005

Mister Emu said:
Just as Eve helped bring sin to humanity, though it is in Adam that all die...
Mary helped bring salvation by being the mother of Jesus, though it is in Jesus that we are made alive.

Don't misunderstand me. I have the utmost respect for Mary. I truly believe she was a great woman. But if you're going to say that she helped bring about salvation by being Jesus' mother, wouldn't the credit extend back to Mary's mother and Mary's grandmother... all the way back to... you guessed it! Eve?

Uncertaindrummer · Sep 4, 2005

Mister Emu said:
Just as Eve helped bring sin to humanity, though it is in Adam that all die

1 Cor 15:22 "For as in Adam all die..."

Mary helped bring salvation by being the mother of Jesus, though it is in Jesus that we are made alive

"... even so in Christ shall all be made alive".

That is a strikingly good parallel.

Scott1 · Sep 4, 2005

Katzpur said:
Don't misunderstand me. I have the utmost respect for Mary.

Good to hear it!:bounce

I truly believe she was a great woman.

The greatest.

But if you're going to say that she helped bring about salvation by being Jesus' mother, wouldn't the credit extend back to Mary's mother and Mary's grandmother... all the way back to... you guessed it! Eve?

I guess you could convince yourself of that, but I personally would not minimize the will of God. God chose Mary... and I think that carries a bit of weight.

Katzpur · Sep 4, 2005

Scott1 said:
I guess you could convince yourself of that...

Actually, it was no trouble at all.

God chose Mary... and I think that carries a bit of weight.

I think it does, too. She was definitely His personal pick to do something He evidently believed she could do better than any other woman. You may find this surprising, but sometimes I wish my Church paid just a little bit more attention to her.

I still don't see how the fact that she was such an outstanding woman in any way implies that she lived her entire life without sinning. I just find it to be a real extrapolation from the facts we actually do know about her. I don't think it takes anything away from her to believe that she was an exceptional woman whose sins were paid for by the death of her Son. I couldn't help but notice, back when we were debating baptism, that you seemed to take the scripture quite literally which says, "For all have sinned..." You said that "all" meant "all" -- including tiny babies. So why doesn't "all" include Mary?

Scott1 · Sep 4, 2005

Katzpur said:
You may find this surprising, but sometimes I wish my Church paid just a little bit more attention to her.

I don't view this as suprising... I view it as God's grace in you.

I still don't see how the fact that she was such an outstanding woman in any way implies that she lived her entire life without sinning.

One does not necessarily have anything to do with the other.... to believe in a sinless Mary you have to believe in the Church that defined it... word is always tied to witness.... you don't have faith in the Catholic Church, so why should you believe what it said about Mary???

Word is always tied to witness -
Believe in the witness of Joseph Smith?... then poof---you are a Mormon, and believe in the BOM/Golden plates etc....
Don't believe Joseph Smith? --- then NOTHING provided in LDS theology or ecclesiology will be believed.

For all have sinned..." You said that "all" meant "all" -- including tiny babies. So why doesn't "all" include Mary?

Because it doesn't.

I can try to explain it all day long... Mary was the Mother of God and so was special... blah blah blah... but, again, word is always tied to witness so if you don't believe in the power of the Church to define dogma, then you just don't--- no "evidence" will sway you.

With the love of Christ,
Scott

Katzpur · Sep 4, 2005

Scott1 said:
One does not necessarily have anything to do with the other.... to believe in a sinless Mary you have to believe in the Church that defined it

Well, if one doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the other, I don't know why the comparison was made in the first place. I know I didn't bring it up.

So when did the Church define it?

Because it doesn't. I can try to explain it all day long... Mary was the Mother of God and so was special... blah blah blah... but, again, word is always tied to witnessso if you don't believe in the power of the Church to define dogma, then you just don't--- no "evidence" will sway you.

You're probably right. You don't stand a very strong chance of converting me. On the other hand, the title of this thread is, "Catholic Church has never changed doctrine." It's not on the discussion forum, but rather on the debate forum -- and I wouldn't want to disappoint anybody. :bounce To me the title statement means that the doctrines taught by the Catholic Church ought to be the doctrines taught by the "head" of the Church -- Jesus Christ. If the Church has power to define dogma, I think it is reasonable to assume that the Church leaders didn't just sit down one say and say, "Hey, let's define the Immaculate Conception." I'm looking for their sources. I want to know how they came to the conclusions they did. I'm interested in hearing the history of how this dogma came to be defined. Does that make sense?

Kathryn

Feathers in Hair · Sep 4, 2005

Not to completely derail the topic... Okay, but to completely derail the topic- I think it's pretty amazing that Mary has transcended religions. By those pagans that celebrate several pantheons- myself included- she brings healing and grace.

Okay, I'm re-railing the topic!

Scott1 · Sep 4, 2005

Katzpur said:
Well, if one doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the other, I don't know why the comparison was made in the first place. I know I didn't bring it up.

I didn't either.

You're probably right. You don't stand a very strong chance of converting me.

Ditto... but that is not my intention with this discussion... I hope it is not yours.

Does that make sense?

Yes.

THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY

Katzpur · Sep 4, 2005

FeathersinHair said:
Not to completely derail the topic... Okay, but to completely derail the topic- I think it's pretty amazing that Mary has transcended religions. By those pagans that celebrate several pantheons- myself included- she brings healing and grace.

Okay, I'm re-railing the topic!

See how well that ties in to my Common Ground thread?

Katzpur · Sep 4, 2005

Scott1 said:
THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY

The link appears to be broken, Scott.

Catholic Church has never Changed doctrine.

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