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More scripture

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
Uh... I don't think I do. :eek: The largest group of people whose story is told in the Book of Mormon descended from a small number of Israelites who left Jerusalem in abou 600 B.C. and were led by God to the American continent. (They were not one of the "Lost Tribes.") The leader of this group was a prophet named Lehi. He took with him copies of the words of Isaiah (and possibly other Old Testament prophets) because these words prophesied of a coming Messiah. Lehi and his son, Nephi, also received prophecies about the Messiah. Theirs were considerably more detailed. These prophesies foretold the coming of Jesus Christ and His ministry in the Holy Land (which would be recorded in the New Testament). They also said that He would, at some point after His death and resurrection, visit "His other sheep" in the Americas. All of the Jews expected the same Messiah. The same Messiah who was born in Bethlehem and who was crucified on Calvary later appeared to the Book of Mormon people. I'm not sure if you just aren't familiar with the story line in the Book of Mormon and if that's what's causing the confusion or if it's something else. If this post doesn't answer your question, maybe we're going to have to enlist the services of a "translator." ;)

Is there any archaeological, historical,geographical, or any other evidence for the group you speak of and their stories, or all we have are the accounts the prophet wrote down himself. Is there any biblical evidence to suport these findings or maybe that is another thread...just asking??
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I won't go there concerning the history of his prophecies and the book of mormon or it's validity, I have tested the spirits and have come to my own conclusion based on what the word of God says, and his spirit testifies of.
I just can't get past the opposing doctrines LDS and it's leadership have compiled that fly in the face of the Judeo Christian doctrine and Holy Bible:
....comments/beliefs or as some may call it, prophecy such as cited below are very ccontrary to the biblical accounts of who God is.
Where in the Bible do we have any information as to what God was before "the beginning"? The Bible begins with an account of the Creation. It makes no mention of anything that took place prior to the Creation. Mormons believe (at least some of them do) something about what God may have been before the events which are described in the Bible took place. The Bible is silent on this matter. Our belief cannot possibly contradict something which is not even stated.

Joseph Smith taught: "I will prove that the world is wrong, by showing what God is...God himself was once as we are now and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret...I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.345);
Joseph Smith continues: "God himself...is a man like unto one of yourselves...God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth...You have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves" (Times and Seasons, vol.5, pp.613-614); "Here then is eternal life---to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves...the same as all Gods have done before you...To inherit the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a God" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.346-347).
For starters, I would suggest that you actually stick to LDS doctrine. While many Mormons today do believe these things (although when you take them out of context, they say something that requires a background in official LDS theology in order to be understood), they cannot be found in any of our "Standard Works." Consequently, it is entirely possible to be a good Mormon and not believe these things.

I know it's more fun for you guys to go to your anti-Mormon websites and mine out all of the quotes from Joseph Smith and Brigham Young that strike you as the most damaging, but if you really want to play fair, you'll stick to what we really do believe and teach, rather than copying and pasting out-of-context statements that are at the periphery of our theology.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Is there any archaeological, historical,geographical, or any other evidence for the group you speak of and their stories, or all we have are the accounts the prophet wrote down himself. Is there any biblical evidence to suport these findings or maybe that is another thread...just asking??
About as much as there is for the Exodus described in the Old Testament or for a virgin giving birth to the Son of God in the New Testament.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Actually, it doesn't. Of course you're right about DNA studies showing that man originated in Africa. American newspaperman, H.L. Mencken once said, "There is always an easy solution to every human problem--neat, plausible, and wrong." In your opinion, Silvermoon's analogy is just that: neat, plausible, and wrong. My response is that our critics' claim that "DNA has proven the Book of Mormon to be a fraud" is equally neat, plausible, and wrong.

Let's start by looking at the initial premise. The article in question begins by declaring that it "lays to rest any lingering questions about Native American ancestry: Lehi and his family almost certainly had nothing to do with it." It goes on to say that it has previously been "shown that the Native American population was most likely the exclusive descendants of a group that traveled across the Bering Strait from Severia some 12,000 years ago."

Before I even begin to explain why I believe this statement is incorrect, I can't resist the urge to comment on several phrases in the brief portion of the article which I quoted.

1. This one article claims to "lay to rest" a claim that certainly isn't going to be "laid to rest" for many more years. No scientist worth his salt would be so presumptuous. Conclusions of that sort aren't the end. They're merely the place at which the lazy and biased stop thinking.

2. The claim that has supposedly been "laid to rest" concludes that "Lehi and his family almost certainly had nothing to do with it." Within a single sentence, the article went from saying that a claim has been conclusively disproven -- almost certainly. :facepalm:

3. The statement that the "Native American population was most likely the exclusive descendants of a group..." is a dangeerous one to make. To describe an entire population as being "the exclusive descendants" of a single group of people is so restrictive that sooner or later it would almost certainly be proven wrong. Hardly any populations anywhere except for the most isolated places in the world could be described as being "the exclusive descendants" of any one group.

Okay, on to my actual response to the claims made in this rather poorly written article...

I would like to think that all we’re dealing with is a simple misunderstanding. The question to be argued really isn't, "Are today's Native Americans of Middle-eastern ancestry?", but "Is it possible that a small family from the Middle-east could have settled on the already populated American continent 2600 years ago and left no genetic evidence of their existence?" Genetic drift alone would explain how Lehi's haplogroup would almost certainly have disappeared after just a few generations. If Lehi and his family had arrived on an empty continent, it would be a different matter entirely, but we know that wasn't the case.

We don't believe that all, or even most Native Americans are of Israelite descent. If that was our claim, then yes, it would clearly be wrong. Our claim is that it is entirely possible, for a small family from the Middle East to have settled somewhere on the American continent-- that continent being largely populated at the time of their arrival -- and to have left no genetic evidence 2600 years later.
There are a number of reasons why. One of them is “Genetic Drift.” Since you say you’re not an expert in the field, I’m going to assume you don’t know how Genetic Drift works. (I didn’t either, but I made it a point to learn.) The following is an experiment anyone can do to demonstrate the process by which Nephite’s generic markers could not only easily have disappeared over time, but how they almost certainly would have done:

Put 10 red marbles and 10 blue marbles in a jar. Pick one marble at random and check the color. Let's say it's red. Return the marble to the jar, but also take a marble of the same color from a bottle of spares, and put it in a second jar. The new marble (the one you just put in the second jar) will represent the red lineage. It's the lineage you want to track. Keep repeating this process, picking one random marble each time until the second jar has twenty marbles. (Always return the original marble you picked to the jar you took it from. That jar must always contain 20 marbles.) Of the 20 marbles in the second jar, you might have 8 red ones and 12 blue ones. After you've got 20 marbles in the second jar, start the whole process over again, this time picking marbles from the second jar and adding marbles of the corresponding color from your pile of spares to a third jar. By the time you've got 20 marbles in your third jar, you may have 5 red ones and 15 blue ones. By the time you're working on your fourth or fifth jar, you will likely have only blue marbles. If you have even one red one, though, repeat the process. You are guaranteed to have all blue by the time you get to the sixth or seventh jar. Blue will be fixed and red (the lineage you were trying to trace) will be gone forever.

This is not just a hypothetical explanation. Let's say you have a man from Italy who has five daughters. How many of those daughters would have his mtDNA? None, since mtDNA is passed through the woman’s lineage, but not a man’s. Let's say those five daughters give him 30 grandchildren. If that man had married an African woman, every single one of his grandchildren would be classified as African according to their mtDNA. There would not be a single solitary one who would have his mtDNA.

Other factors are the “Founder Effect” and “Population Bottlenecks.” The deCODE Project in Iceland, is an excellent example of the results of a population bottleneck which completely obliterated an entire genetic line in that country. I can explain these in greater detail if you’d like. Or if you’d prefer, I can just post some links.

WOW! thank you for that effort
you really did some research... :D
but unfortunately, it seems as though your sources are biased.:sorry1:

i don't get it.
there are only so many known races on this planet. if a strand of DNA were to be "swamped", it can still be detected because of how many known races there are...pacific Islanders and native americans are of asian descent, not middle eastern descent... since the DNA of the descendants from asia are known and the DNA of the middle east descendants are known as well and these 2 were compared the evidence is conclusive


DNA is the substance within every living cell that carries the code for passing on its exact makeup to new cells, and although DNA is uniquely different for each individual, it is similar in cells of related individuals. As applied to genealogical research distinctive DNA patterns can be used to determine whether and how closely individuals are related to other individuals whose DNA patterns are known.,
Genealogical DNA testing looks at the non-coding portions of the DNA strand (sometimes misleadingly called junk DNA) that have no known function. For the most part, these stretches of DNA remain unchanged from generation to generation. However, chance changes, called mutations or polymorphisms, do occur at infrequent intervals, and it is these changes that let us distinguish different lines of descent and determine how closely people may be related to each other from the closeness of their DNA matches. A DNA sequence that is passed on unchanged from one parent to a child is called a haplotype, and these are the distinctive patterns we use to establish genealogical links....
Verifying relationships is perhaps the most frequent use being made of DNA, as tests can quickly determine whether any two men descend from a common ancestor through their all-male surname line or whether any two people of either sex are related through their all-female maternal lines to a common female ancestor. *However, the number of generations to the common ancestor, if not known from other sources, can be only estimated


*the thing is, it is known...we have the DNA of the middle eastern descendants...

All about genealogy and family history - Basics of DNA - Ancestry.com Wiki

this is an unbiased source. if you can find an unbiased source that backs up your claim...i will be happy too read it...
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
WOW! thank you for that effort
you really did some research... :D
but unfortunately, it seems as though your sources are biased.:sorry1:
It's odd you'd say that since I didn't even tell you who my sources were. ;)

Anyway, I'm really not interested in playing the "My expert is smarter than your expert" game. I believe I've done a pretty good job of showing why it would be next to impossible to detect the genetic markers of a couple of dozen individuals from the middle east in an entire population of people.

there are only so many known races on this planet. if a strand of DNA were to be "swamped", it can still be detected because of how many known races there are...pacific Islanders and native americans are of asian descent, not middle eastern descent... since the DNA of the descendants from asia are known and the DNA of the middle east descendants are known as well and these 2 were compared the evidence is conclusive
I've already explained why this statement is false. If you choose not to accept my explanation, that's okay.

this is an unbiased source. if you can find an unbiased source that backs up your claim...i will be happy too read it...
I don't think I'd be able to find a source you considered unbiased. You claimed the sources I used so far were biased simply because they said something you didn't agree with. Incidentally, I agree with everything your source said. Your source, however, didn't comment on the factors I mentioned.

I'm just curious about one thing... Suppose a couple of dozen American Indians were to migrate to Sweeden today. What would you think the response would be 2600 years from now if genetic testing were done on a group of Swedish people and the following conclusion was published: "Important announcement: The Swedes are not descendants of the American Indians"? Me? I'd think, "Duh!"
 
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ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
Well, who wants the Bible anyway? All we need is the Spirit! So let's just simplify things and get rid of all scripture! Wouldn't that be great?

Or... we can leave the essentials, but I am certain there are parts of the Bible that hardly ever get read. Isaiah is pretty confusing and hard to understand, let's get rid of it. The four Gospels basically all say the same thing. Mathew and John are my favorite, let's keep them.

Obviously I am kidding. But the idea is valid. Why would we need more scriptures? If for no other reason, because they are awesome! Don't you guys love feeling the Spirit when you read the Bible? Don't you love the power of God that is manifest in the stories and lives of people in the Bible? If the things in the Bible are valuable, wouldn't more of the same be good? If you believe the Bible is the word of God, and you love the word of God, you would love to have more of the word of God. I love the Book of Mormon for the same reason I love the Bible. It teaches me about God, and his nature. And it teaches me about his plan for us. It teaches me how to fulfill my purpose here on earth. It teaches me that God loves me. And it teaches me to love God. :) The Book of Mormon led me to Jesus Christ.

Hey, that's alright. Some sense among the senseless... ;)
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
It's odd you'd say that since I didn't even tell you who my sources were. ;)

Anyway, I'm really not interested in playing the "My expert is smarter than your expert" game. I believe I've done a pretty good job of showing why it would be next to impossible to detect the genetic markers of a couple of dozen individuals from the middle east in an entire population of people.

I've already explained why this statement is false. If you choose not to accept my explanation, that's okay.

I don't think I'd be able to find a source you considered unbiased. You claimed the sources I used so far were biased simply because they said something you didn't agree with. Incidentally, I agree with everything your source said. Your source, however, didn't comment on the factors I mentioned.

I'm just curious about one thing... Suppose a couple of dozen American Indians were to migrate to Sweeden today. What would you think the response would be 2600 years from now if genetic testing were done on a group of Swedish people and the following conclusion was published: "Important announcement: The Swedes are not descendants of the American Indians"? Me? I'd think, "Duh!"

did you give me a link...cause i don't recall that...i'll check your post again.

are you insinuating that only a handful of people successfully migrated across the atlantic because their DNA wasn't picked up?

in regards to your swedish example...yes it is possible for the native american strand to be picked up for reasons already listed...

do you really believe that had they found an ounce of evidence to support your claim they would bury it? why... ? seems that is the opposite direction of where science says it's headed for. there is no conspiracy, just truth.
"almost certainly" was a term used because there are no other ways of detecting DNA...
 
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Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
did you give me a link...cause i don't recall that...i'll check your post again.
I didn't give you a link, nor did I post a source. I simply explained how one factor out of several would make it impossible to find a generic link between Lehi's group and today's Native Americans. You couldn't possibly have checked my sources' credentials even if you'd wanted to. If I didn't provide a source, on what basis did you determine that it was biased? I'm thinking that that's all I should have asked you in my last post. Your answer would have been quite interesting. As it is, you have made a fatal mistake and in the process have demonstrated your lack of objectivity in understanding my position. If I were you, I'd just chalk this debate up to experience at this point.

are you insinuating that only a handful of people successfully migrated across the atlantic because their DNA wasn't picked up?
There is no insinuation at all. The Book of Mormon does not tell us the exact number of people who migrated with Lehi. It does, however, mention Lehi, his wife and four sons, another man, his wife and their sons and daughters, and one other man. There were definitely fewer than 30 people. They intermarried with the indiginous people of the American continent. Had they been the sole inhabitants of land, DNA evidence would probably indicate that the Native Americans are descended from middle-easterners. We know, however, that this was not the case.

in regards to your swedish example...yes it is possible for the native american strand to be picked up for reasons already listed...
Apparently you didn't understand the explanation I provided. The reasons you listed did not address the issues of genetic drift, the founder effect or population bottlenecks. You can't simply ignore these factos.

do you really believe that had they found an ounce of evidence to support your claim they would bury it? why... ?
I'm not sure that you even understand "my claim." Just to make sure, why don't you restate it for me in your own words. By the way, do you think I'm saying that DNA evidence proves the Book of Mormon to be true?

By the way, I can provide links if that's what you really want. But I would need to know what your criteria for a "non-biased" source would be.
 
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waitasec

Veteran Member
I didn't give you a link, nor did I post a source. I simply explained how one factor out of several would make it impossible to find a generic link between Lehi's group and today's Native Americans. You couldn't possibly have checked my sources' credentials even if you'd wanted to. If I didn't provide a source, on what basis did you determine that it was biased? I'm thinking that that's all I should have asked you in my last post. Your answer would have been quite interesting. As it is, you have made a fatal mistake and in the process have demonstrated your lack of objectivity in understanding my position. If I were you, I'd just chalk this debate up to experience at this point.

There is no insinuation at all. The Book of Mormon does not tell us the exact number of people who migrated with Lehi. It does, however, mention Lehi, his wife and four sons, another man, his wife and their sons and daughters, and one other man. There were definitely fewer than 30 people. They intermarried with the indiginous people of the American continent. Had they been the sole inhabitants of land, DNA evidence would probably indicate that the Native Americans are descended from middle-easterners. We know, however, that this was not the case.

Apparently you didn't understand the explanation I provided. The reasons you listed did not address the issues of genetic drift, the founder effect or population bottlenecks. You can't simply ignore these factos.

I'm not sure that you even understand "my claim." Just to make sure, why don't you restate it for me in your own words. By the way, do you think I'm saying that DNA evidence proves the Book of Mormon to be true?

By the way, I can provide links if that's what you really want. But I would need to know what your criteria for a "non-biased" source would be.

this is an unbiased source for example
All about genealogy and family history - Basics of DNA - Ancestry.com Wiki

no religious affiliations is what i mean by unbiased.

By the way, do you think I'm saying that DNA evidence proves the Book of Mormon to be true?
all i have to say to that is :p
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
this is an unbiased source for example
All about genealogy and family history - Basics of DNA - Ancestry.com Wiki

no religious affiliations is what i mean by unbiased.
That's ridiculous. When it comes to this question, everybody's biased. If a scientist presents accurate information that can be independently verified, his religious beliefs should not come into question. Besides, "the Basic of DNA" is only the "basics." As I already said, that article didn't even address the factors that must be addressed in this case.

all i have to say to that is :p
What?

Okay, I'm going to take the smilie as a "yes." I can't believe that after the whole discussion, you would think that. If you do, you obviously got lost a long, long time ago.
 
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waitasec

Veteran Member
That's ridiculous. When it comes to this question, everybody's biased. If a scientist presents accurate information that can be independently verified, his religious beliefs should not come into question. Besides, "the Basic of DNA" is only the "basics." As I already said, that article didn't even address the factors that must be addressed in this case.

science is not biased. what is the purpose of science? to find truth, right? truth is not subjective.


What?

Okay, I'm going to take the smilie as a "yes." I can't believe that after the whole discussion, you would think that. If you do, you obviously got lost a long, long time ago.

no i don't agree i was being ironical..i guess maybe the smiley i should have used was :rolleyes:, but then you might have misunderstood that too;
hmmmm how about :slap: no but that seems too harsh okay this one is the one :no:

i'm out of here, until next time... happy thanksgiving :D
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
science is not biased. what is the purpose of science? to find truth, right? truth is not subjective.
That is absolutely correct. So when certain factors are not considered, factors that would impact the findings and conclusions, the findings and conclusions are going to be flawed.

no i don't agree i was being ironical..i guess maybe the smiley i should have used was :rolleyes:, but then you might have misunderstood that too;
hmmmm how about :slap: no but that seems too harsh okay this one is the one :no:
Uh huh. Right. I'm sure you meant "no." ;)

i'm out of here, until next time... happy thanksgiving :D
You, too. I hope you have a really nice one.
 
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