Why does the Quran direct Muslims to Bible?

Pegg · Nov 19, 2010

J2hapydna said:
Monogenes is a compound word in which mono= only, genes= family. I dont see where you are getting child in the definition? It is the term uios that means son.

huios, word #5207 in Strong's Concordance

Psalm 25:16,
turn to me and be gracious to me,
for I am lonely (monogenes) and afflicted:

The Scriptures have several instances where 'monogenes' is the greek word used for 'only son' or 'only child'
Luke 7:1 speaks of the the only-begotten son of a widow who lived in the city of Nain,
Luke 8:41-42 speaks of Jairus only-begotten daughter,
Luke 9:38 speaks of a mans only-begotten son whom Jesus cured of a demon.

In all cases, the greek word is monogenes.

J2hapydna · Nov 20, 2010

Pegg said:
The Scriptures have several instances where 'monogenes' is the greek word used for 'only son' or 'only child'

Luke 7:1 speaks of the “the only-begotten son” of a widow who lived in the city of Nain,
Luke 8:41-42 speaks of Jairus’ “only-begotten daughter,”
Luke 9:38 speaks of a man’s “only-begotten” son whom Jesus cured of a demon.

In all cases, the greek word is monogenes.

The New Testament contains 8 uses, all adjectival:

Note: uios=son, thugater=daughter

Luke 7:12 "her only son (o monogenes uios)"
Luke 8:42 "only daughter (e monogenes thugater)"
Luke 9:38 "only son (o monogenes uios)"
John 1:18 textual variation in manuscripts: a. "only begotten" God (monogenes theos / b. "the only begotten Son" (o monogenes uios)
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son (o monogenes uios)"
John 3:18 "he has not believed in the name of God’s only son (o monogenes uios)"
Heb.11:17 "only-legitimate son (o monogenes uios)" – since Abraham also fathered Ishmael, from the slave girl Hagar, and six other sons, from Keturah.
1 John 4:9 "God sent his only Son (o monogenes uios) into the world"

only begotten is the correct translation of the Latin word unigenitus, used in the Vulgate as translation of monogenes. Furthermore, unigenitus would be the correct translation of the Greek word monogennetos (from gennasthai/gennao in Greek). However, we are translating the Greek word monogenes (from the Greek word Genos meaning 'kind or type,' ginomai a verb of being)

James Hope Moulton and George Milligan, in The Vocabulary of the Greek Testament (Grand Rapids: Eerdman's. 1930. pp. 416-417): "Monogenes is literally 'one of a kind,' 'only,' 'unique' (unicus), not 'only begotten,' which would be monogennetos (unigenitus,) and is common in the LXX in this sense... The emphasis is on the thought that, as the 'only' Son of God, He has no equal and is able to reveal the Father."

Interesting article on the topic:

http://www.iatis.org/newvoices/issues/2006/piotr-paper-2006.pdf

Bowman · Nov 20, 2010

القرءان = “alqur-ana”

“alqur-ana” definition:

Proper noun. Originally meaning the Collection; “I collected together the thing” or “I read, or recited, the book or scripture”; and then conventionally applied to signify the Book of God that was revealed to Muhammad; it also signifies the Revelation, meaning that which is termed the mighty, or imitable which is read, or recited, and written in books or volumes. A name for the Book of God, like the book of the Law revealed to Moses and the Gospel.

قرءان is so called because it has collected the histories of the prophets, and commands and prohibitions, and promises and threats, and the verses or signs, and the chapters.

It comes from the root “qara’a”, which has the primary signification he collected together the thing; put it, or drew it, together; part to part, or portion to portion. He read, or recited, the scripture chanting; he read or recited anything in any manner, without, or from, or in a book.

References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume seven, pp. 2502 - 2504
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 448 - 449

The classic Arabic definition is really quite revealing.

We have the following proclaimed regarding the original meaning applied to the Koran:

• It’s a collection
• A collection of books or scriptures

Whether this collection is read or recited, it still suggests that it emanates from a collected repository of things already written down.

It was only later that the meaning changed to signify the Book of God that was revealed to “Muhammad”…and, as previously discussed on other threads, we already understand that the “Muhammad” spoken of in the Koran is actually an epithet for the Biblical Jesus Christ.

Thus, according to the classic Arabic, the Koran is Jesus’ book

This would account for the scores of suras that are entitled after Him, and revolve around Him.

“Alqur-ana” also means Revelation – which is most appropriate, as >75% of the Koran is directly copied from the Book of Revelation.

The root “qara’a” takes us one step deeper with the primary definition “he collected together the thing; put it, or drew it, together; part to part, or portion to portion."

This gives us great insight as to why the Koran was written in the fashion that it was – as the authors who pieced it together and performed the translation, actually did so piecemeal. These pieces, taken in large part from the Book of Revelation, are actually the paraphrased Arabic counterparts to the Holy Bible, known as suras.

Pegg · Nov 20, 2010

J2hapydna said:
The New Testament contains 8 uses, all adjectival:

Note: uios=son, thugater=daughter

Luke 7:12 "her only son (o monogenes uios)"

Luke 8:42 "only daughter (e monogenes thugater)"

Luke 9:38 "only son (o monogenes uios)"

John 1:18 textual variation in manuscripts: a. "only begotten" God (monogenes theos / b. "the only begotten Son" (o monogenes uios)

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son (o monogenes uios)"

John 3:18 "he has not believed in the name of Gods only son (o monogenes uios)"

Heb.11:17 "only-legitimate son (o monogenes uios)" since Abraham also fathered Ishmael, from the slave girl Hagar, and six other sons, from Keturah.

1 John 4:9 "God sent his only Son (o monogenes uios) into the world"

im sorry, i was only focusing on the word monogenes and pointing out that it was uses with regard to 'offspring'

Jesus is an 'offspring' of God just as the occurences of the scriptures apply monogenes to 'offspring'

J2hapydna said:
http://www.iatis.org/newvoices/issues/2006/piotr-paper-2006.pdf

that is a good article, cheers.

Interesting to see the theological implications of the word monogenes being applied to Christ by John....and easy to see why many translators have chosen to remove the term from their bibles. the expression makes Jesus a created being...a truth they would like to hide by removing the instances of 'only begotten' from their translations.

J2hapydna · Nov 21, 2010

Pegg said:
[/LIST]
Interesting to see the theological implications of the word monogenes being applied to Christ by John....and easy to see why many translators have chosen to remove the term from their bibles. the expression makes Jesus a created being...a truth they would like to hide by removing the instances of 'only begotten' from their translations.

Yes, but by removing begotten and replacing it with unique son of God, they also can no longer claim the verse proves the divinity of Jesus. It turns him into a son of God (Prophet) without brothers and sisters (monogenes).

Pegg · Nov 21, 2010

J2hapydna said:
Yes, but by removing begotten and replacing it with unique son of God, they also can no longer claim the verse proves the divinity of Jesus. It turns him into a son of God (Prophet) without brothers and sisters (monogenes).

i thought it to be the other way around

That by removing 'begotten' it actually proves his divinity....because if Jesus is God, he cannot be begotten.

The 'only begotten' identity that John gives Jesus is what proves him to have been created. By removing it, they hide the fact that he had a beginning.... because God did not have a beginning nor was he created.

Dirty Penguin · Nov 21, 2010

Bowman said:
القرءان = alqur-ana

alqur-ana definition:

Proper noun. Originally meaning the Collection; I collected together the thing or I read, or recited, the book or scripture; and then conventionally applied to signify the Book of God that was revealed to Muhammad; it also signifies the Revelation, meaning that which is termed the mighty, or imitable which is read, or recited, and written in books or volumes. A name for the Book of God, like the book of the Law revealed to Moses and the Gospel.

قرءان is so called because it has collected the histories of the prophets, and commands and prohibitions, and promises and threats, and the verses or signs, and the chapters.

It comes from the root qaraa, which has the primary signification he collected together the thing; put it, or drew it, together; part to part, or portion to portion. He read, or recited, the scripture chanting; he read or recited anything in any manner, without, or from, or in a book.

References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume seven, pp. 2502 - 2504
The Dictionary of the Holy Quran, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 448 - 449

The classic Arabic definition is really quite revealing.

We have the following proclaimed regarding the original meaning applied to the Koran:

 Its a collection
 A collection of books or scriptures

Whether this collection is read or recited, it still suggests that it emanates from a collected repository of things already written down.

It was only later that the meaning changed to signify the Book of God that was revealed to Muhammadand, as previously discussed on other threads, we already understand that the Muhammad spoken of in the Koran is actually an epithet for the Biblical Jesus Christ.

Thus, according to the classic Arabic, the Koran is Jesus book

This would account for the scores of suras that are entitled after Him, and revolve around Him.

Alqur-ana also means Revelation which is most appropriate, as >75% of the Koran is directly copied from the Book of Revelation.

The root qaraa takes us one step deeper with the primary definition he collected together the thing; put it, or drew it, together; part to part, or portion to portion."

This gives us great insight as to why the Koran was written in the fashion that it was as the authors who pieced it together and performed the translation, actually did so piecemeal. These pieces, taken in large part from the Book of Revelation, are actually the paraphrased Arabic counterparts to the Holy Bible, known as suras.

:sleep:

J2hapydna · Nov 22, 2010

Pegg said:
i thought it to be the other way around

That by removing 'begotten' it actually proves his divinity....because if Jesus is God, he cannot be begotten.

The 'only begotten' identity that John gives Jesus is what proves him to have been created. By removing it, they hide the fact that he had a beginning.... because God did not have a beginning nor was he created.

That is a good point. However, even if he is not begotten, it does not prove he is divine.

regards,

Pegg · Nov 22, 2010

J2hapydna said:
That is a good point. However, even if he is not begotten, it does not prove he is divine.

regards,

if he came from heaven, existed as a spirit, he is divine.

Angels exist in heaven, they are spirits, they are of divine nature...meaning 'god like'

Jesus was the same as them before he was a man.

Bowman · Nov 22, 2010

Pegg said:
if he came from heaven, existed as a spirit, he is divine.

Angels exist in heaven, they are spirits, they are of divine nature...meaning 'god like'

Jesus was the same as them before he was a man.

Show us a direct, clear Biblical verse which states that Jesus was an angel.

Pegg · Nov 23, 2010

Bowman said:
Show us a direct, clear Biblical verse which states that Jesus was an angel.

what does the term angel mean? And who is the term applied to and why?

If you can answer me these questions, i'll be better equipped to answer yours, cheers.

Bowman · Nov 23, 2010

Pegg said:
what does the term angel mean? And who is the term applied to and why?

If you can answer me these questions, i'll be better equipped to answer yours, cheers.

You are doing the JW shuffle again, sister...

Just show me one verse which states that Jesus was an angel....and...it can even be in the third-person

Good luck.

I already showed you where Jesus states that He is God, in the first-person singular.

This being the case, Jesus cannot possibly be God and an angel at the same time.

Dirty Penguin · Nov 23, 2010

Bowman said:
I already showed you where Jesus states that He is God, in the first-person singular.

There are no 1st person verses where the biblical Yeshua states he's "God".....Of course there are verses where most will interpret him (implicitly) stating he was....but there are a few where *explicitly* says he has a god as well as numerous verses where he (implicitly) denies being "God".....

Pegg · Nov 23, 2010

Bowman said:
You are doing the JW shuffle again, sister...

Just show me one verse which states that Jesus was an angel....and...it can even be in the third-person

Good luck.

I already showed you where Jesus states that He is God, in the first-person singular.

This being the case, Jesus cannot possibly be God and an angel at the same time.

im trying to determine what you believe an angel to be

The scriptures apply the word angel to the hebrew word 'Malak'
But this same hebrew word is also applied to humans in the scriptures because it means 'messenger'. Although, when the reference is to a spirit messenger, the word is always angel.
So any spirit who acts as a messenger of God is an angel. Was Jesus a messenger of God? He indicated that he was
John 7:16 "Jesus, in turn, answered them and said: “What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me. 17 If anyone desires to do His will, he will know concerning the teaching whether it is from God or I speak of my own originality.

Jesus existed in heaven with God, im sure you'd agree with that. He could only have been a spirit at that time (as he is now)
If he came to mankind with the word of God, then he is a messenger of God and hence an angel... a malak.

We cannot say that there are some spirits in heaven and there are some angels in heaven...they are one in the same. They are also called 'sons of God', 'holy ones of God' and 'holy myriads'

Job 1:6 Now it came to be the day when the sons of the [true] God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and even Satan proceeded to enter right among them ("angels" LXX) obviously speaking of spirit sons of God assembled in God’s presence

Job 38::7 "When the morning stars joyfully cried out together,
And all the sons of God began shouting in applause (LXX “my angels&#8221

The angles who sinned in the days of Noah are also called 'spirits' by Peter so the term angel is used interchangeably.
Genesis 6:2 then the sons of the [true] God began to notice the daughters of men" ("angels" LXX)

2 Peter 2:4 "Certainly if God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned,...in the days of Noah"

1 Peter 3:19 "In this [state] also he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days

Spirits are angels...heavenly beings who exist in the form of God.
Psalm 8:4 "What is mortal man that you keep him in mind... 5 You also proceeded to make him a little less than godlike ones,And with glory and splendor you then crowned him." (me‧’elo‧him&#8242

Some other translators put this verse as
ESV - a little lower than the heavenly beings
KJV - a little lower than the angels
Darby - a little lower than the angels
TNESV- a little lower than the heavely beings
NIV UK- a little lower than the heavenly beings
NIV - a little lower than the angels

So to answer your question i need only ask you a question... Is Jesus a spirit? Is Jesus a heavenly being?

If your answer is yes, then he is also an angel. The only one we would not apply the term 'angel' to is God himself because God is not a messenger.

Dirty Penguin · Nov 23, 2010

Pegg said:
im trying to determine what you believe an angel to be

The scriptures apply the word angel to the hebrew word 'Malak'
But this same hebrew word is also applied to humans in the scriptures because it means 'messenger'. Although, when the reference is to a spirit messenger, the word is always angel.
So any spirit who acts as a messenger of God is an angel. Was Jesus a messenger of God? He indicated that he was
John 7:16 "Jesus, in turn, answered them and said: What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me. 17 If anyone desires to do His will, he will know concerning the teaching whether it is from God or I speak of my own originality.

Jesus existed in heaven with God, im sure you'd agree with that. He could only have been a spirit at that time (as he is now)
If he came to mankind with the word of God, then he is a messenger of God and hence an angel... a malak.

We cannot say that there are some spirits in heaven and there are some angels in heaven...they are one in the same. They are also called 'sons of God', 'holy ones of God' and 'holy myriads'

Job 1:6 Now it came to be the day when the sons of the [true] God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and even Satan proceeded to enter right among them ("angels" LXX) obviously speaking of spirit sons of God assembled in Gods presence

Job 38::7 "When the morning stars joyfully cried out together,
And all the sons of God began shouting in applause (LXX my angels)

The angles who sinned in the days of Noah are also called 'spirits' by Peter so the term angel is used interchangeably.
Genesis 6:2 then the sons of the [true] God began to notice the daughters of men" ("angels" LXX)

2 Peter 2:4 "Certainly if God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned,...in the days of Noah"

1 Peter 3:19 "In this [state] also he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noahs days

Spirits are angels...heavenly beings who exist in the form of God.
Psalm 8:4 "What is mortal man that you keep him in mind... 5 You also proceeded to make him a little less than godlike ones,And with glory and splendor you then crowned him." (me‧elo‧him&#8242

Some other translators put this verse as
ESV - a little lower than the heavenly beings
KJV - a little lower than the angels
Darby - a little lower than the angels
TNESV- a little lower than the heavely beings
NIV UK- a little lower than the heavenly beings
NIV - a little lower than the angels

So to answer your question i need only ask you a question... Is Jesus a spirit? Is Jesus a heavenly being?

If your answer is yes, then he is also an angel. The only one we would not apply the term 'angel' to is God himself because God is not a messenger.

:clap.......Great work....!

Bowman · Nov 23, 2010

Dirty Penguin said:
There are no 1st person verses where the biblical Yeshua states he's "God".....Of course there are verses where most will interpret him (implicitly) stating he was....but there are a few where *explicitly* says he has a god as well as numerous verses where he (implicitly) denies being "God".....

Nope.

We have already provided an example for you, brother.

However, you fell silent when your lack of knowledge of Greek grammar was exposed...

Pegg · Nov 23, 2010

Dirty Penguin said:
:clap.......Great work....!

ty

i take it that my post was clear to you, perhaps it will be as clear as mud to brother bowman

Bowman · Nov 23, 2010

Pegg said:
im trying to determine what you believe an angel to be

The scriptures apply the word angel to the hebrew word 'Malak'
But this same hebrew word is also applied to humans in the scriptures because it means 'messenger'. Although, when the reference is to a spirit messenger, the word is always angel.
So any spirit who acts as a messenger of God is an angel. Was Jesus a messenger of God? He indicated that he was
John 7:16 "Jesus, in turn, answered them and said: What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me. 17 If anyone desires to do His will, he will know concerning the teaching whether it is from God or I speak of my own originality.

Jesus existed in heaven with God, im sure you'd agree with that. He could only have been a spirit at that time (as he is now)
If he came to mankind with the word of God, then he is a messenger of God and hence an angel... a malak.

We cannot say that there are some spirits in heaven and there are some angels in heaven...they are one in the same. They are also called 'sons of God', 'holy ones of God' and 'holy myriads'

Job 1:6 Now it came to be the day when the sons of the [true] God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and even Satan proceeded to enter right among them ("angels" LXX) obviously speaking of spirit sons of God assembled in Gods presence

Job 38::7 "When the morning stars joyfully cried out together,
And all the sons of God began shouting in applause (LXX my angels)

The angles who sinned in the days of Noah are also called 'spirits' by Peter so the term angel is used interchangeably.
Genesis 6:2 then the sons of the [true] God began to notice the daughters of men" ("angels" LXX)

2 Peter 2:4 "Certainly if God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned,...in the days of Noah"

1 Peter 3:19 "In this [state] also he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noahs days

Spirits are angels...heavenly beings who exist in the form of God.
Psalm 8:4 "What is mortal man that you keep him in mind... 5 You also proceeded to make him a little less than godlike ones,And with glory and splendor you then crowned him." (me‧elo‧him&#8242

Some other translators put this verse as
ESV - a little lower than the heavenly beings
KJV - a little lower than the angels
Darby - a little lower than the angels
TNESV- a little lower than the heavely beings
NIV UK- a little lower than the heavenly beings
NIV - a little lower than the angels

So to answer your question i need only ask you a question... Is Jesus a spirit? Is Jesus a heavenly being?

If your answer is yes, then he is also an angel. The only one we would not apply the term 'angel' to is God himself because God is not a messenger.

Angels are created beings, sister.

Jesus was never created.

As you can see, there is no scripture which even remotely describes Jesus as an angel.

Pegg · Nov 23, 2010

Bowman said:
Angels are created beings, sister.

Jesus was never created.

As you can see, there is no scripture which even remotely describes Jesus as an angel.

there is the little issue of John calling Jesus the 'only begotten' at JOhn 1:14 "So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth.

he then repeated it at John 3:16 For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son

and again at 1 John 4:9 "By this the love of God was made manifest in our case, because God sent forth his only-begotten Son into the world that we might gain life through him

The Apostle Paul believed that John meant Jesus was a created being for at Colossians 1:15 he said he was the "firstborn of all creation"

There would be no way in the world Paul would call God Almighty a 'firstborn' of anyone...yet here he calls Jesus a 'firstborn' of God.

I think you need to look at the scriptures Bowman and leave the doctrines at the door.

Bowman · Nov 23, 2010

Pegg said:
there is the little issue of John calling Jesus the 'only begotten' at JOhn 1:14 "So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth.

he then repeated it at John 3:16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son

and again at 1 John 4:9 "By this the love of God was made manifest in our case, because God sent forth his only-begotten Son into the world that we might gain life through him

The Apostle Paul believed that John meant Jesus was a created being for at Colossians 1:15 he said he was the "firstborn of all creation"

There would be no way in the world Paul would call God Almighty a 'firstborn' of anyone...yet here he calls Jesus a 'firstborn' of God.

I think you need to look at the scriptures Bowman and leave the doctrines at the door.

Just like clockwork, you keep repeating your same old worn-out mantra as taught to you by fellow JW’s.

Rather than repeatedly turning away from the answers, you need to start actually taking them to heart.

That Jesus is not created is told to us in the NWT, should you want to read and actually study the Greek behind it.

Let’s review the two verses from Revelation which caused you to go completely and utterly silent regarding Jesus’ deity – and which also demonstrate that Jesus is not a created being…

λεγοντες φωνη μεγαλη αξιον εστιν το αρνιον το εσφαγμενον λαβειν την δυναμιν και πλουτον και σοφιαν και ισχυν και τιμην και δοξαν και ευλογιαν και παν κτισμα ο εντωουρανω και επιτηςγης καιυποκατω τηςγης καιεπι της θαλασσης [εστιν] καιτα εν αυτοις πανταηκουσα λεγοντας τωκαθημενω επι τουθρονου και τω αρνιωη ευλογια καιη τιμηκαι η δοξακαι το κρατοςεις τουςαιωνας των αιωνων

legophone megasaxios estiho arnionho sphazolambanohodunamiskai ploutoskai sophiakaiischuskaitimekaidoxakaieulogia kaipasktismahosenhoouranoskaiepihogekaihupokatohogekaiepihothalassakaihoenautospasakouolegohokathemaiepihothronoskaihoarnionhoeulogiakaihotimekaihodoxakaihokratoseishoaionhoaion

Saying with a great voice, Worthy is the Lamb having been slain to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing. And every created thing in Heaven, and upon the earth, and underneath the earth, and upon the sea, and the things in all of them, I heard saying: To Him sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the power forever and ever. Rev 5.12 - 13

These verses clearly show the separation between created things ‘ktisma’ and Jesus.

All ‘pas’ created things ‘ktisma’ in Heaven, on earth, under the earth, and upon the sea, and all things in them - thus all created things in God’s creation, are shown to worship Jesus as God.

Jesus is not created.

Period.

Now...run along and pretend we said nothing...

Why does the Quran direct Muslims to Bible?

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