What Does At the Right Hand of God Mean?

What Does At the Right Hand of God Mean?

INTRODUCTION;

Some incorrectly claim this means Jesus (Yeshua) was in the position of ultimate power, but the scriptures clearly show that his Father, Almighty God (YHWH) was in the position of ultimate power. Jesus (Yeshua) was acting as his ‘right-hand-man’ since that is what the ancient expression of sitting on the right hand of power meant. Let’s look at the scriptural facts.

THE SCRIPTURAL FACTS:


Lu 22:69 - (Authorized King James Bible; AV)
Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God. [clearly showing he was NOT the power or being in power, but was sitting at his right hand]

Ac 2:33 - (AV)
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. [clearly showing he was NOT the power or being in power, but was sitting at his right hand. The power clearly was his Father (YHWH) and also showing he had received some of his Father’s (YHWH’s) power or Spirit. The Hebrew word here rendered Holy Ghost, Holy Spirit, or Spirit which is translated from 'ru'ach' meaning "breath; wind; spirit." Thus the idea that the holy spirit is the third person of a Trinity, when in fact the Bible does not support the Holy Ghost or Spirit as being a being at all, is absurd. For example, "The Catholic Encyclopedia:" states, "Nowhere in the Old Testament do we find any clear indication of a Third Person." And Catholic theologian Fortman states, "The Jews never regarded the spirit as a person; nor is there any solid evidence that any Old Testament writer held this view. . . . The Holy Spirit is usually presented in the Synoptics [Gospels] and in Acts as a divine force or power." Whereas, "The New Catholic Encyclopedia" states, "The O[ld] T[estament] clearly does not envisage God's spirit as a person . . . God's spirit is simply God's power. If it is sometimes represented as being distinct from God, it is because the breath of Yahweh acts exteriorly." It also states, "The majority of N[ew] T[estament] texts reveal God's spirit as something, not someone; this is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God." And "A Catholic Dictionary," states, "On the whole, the New Testament, like the Old, speaks of the spirit as a divine energy or power."

Hence as can readily be seen, neither the Jews nor the early Christians viewed the holy spirit as part of a Trinity. That teaching came centuries later. As "A Catholic Dictionary," notes: "The third Person was asserted at a Council of Alexandria in 362 . . . and finally by the Council of Constantinople of 381." Interestingly this being approximately three and a half centuries after holy spirit filled the disciples at Pentecost! No, the holy spirit is not a person and it is not part of a Trinity. The holy spirit is God's active force that he uses to accomplish his will. It is not equal to God but is always at his disposition and subordinate to him as clearly shown by scripture and by historical reference.

The doctrine of the Trinity was hotly debated in the 4th century and is man made. When Luther blew the lid off the RCC that salvation is by faith and not by works, he didn't go far enough to eradicate the doctrine of the Trinity as well. But the mainstream churches still staunchly support it, rather than giving far more credence to what the scriptures teach us - than from what has come out of man made creeds. This false doctrine is shown false by among other things the fact that the Holy Spirit is nowhere in the Bible ever depicted as a person - but rather as a dove, John.1:32, "And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him." (AV), as a big wind and forked tongued flame at Acts 2:1-4, "And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." (AV).

So we see the need to daily examine the scriptures as did the Bereans as recorded at Acts 17:11, "These were more noble than those in Thesalonica in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." (AV), do not let your guard down. Remember Titus 2:1, "But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:" (AV).]
]

Ac 5:31 - (AV)
Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. [clearly showing he was NOT the power or being in power, but was sitting at his right hand of his God (YHWH), his Father because “God exalted” him to this position.]

Ac 7:55 - (AV)
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, [clearly showing he was NOT the power or being in power, but was sitting at his right hand]

Ac 7:56 - (AV)
And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. [clearly showing he was NOT the power or being in power, but was sitting at his right hand]

Ro 8:34 - (AV)
Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. [clearly showing he was NOT the power or being in power, but was sitting at his right hand. This scripture when it speaks of Christ “maketh intercession for us” is backed up by John 5:22, “For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:” (AV) and 1 Timothy 2:5, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; “ (AV). Both clearly showing the Christ, NOT as God (YHWH) but at his “right hand of God” making “intercession for us.”]

Col 3:1 - (AV)
If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. . [clearly showing he was NOT the power or being in power, but was sitting at his right hand “Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.” This also clearly shows he, Christ, is NOT God (YHWH).]

Heb 10:12 - (AV)
But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; . [clearly showing he was NOT the power or being in power, but was sitting at his right hand.]

Heb 12:2 - (AV)
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. . [clearly showing he was NOT the power or being in power, but was sitting at his right hand “Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.” This also clearly shows he, Christ, is NOT God (YHWH).]

1Pe 3:22 - (AV)
Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. . [clearly showing he was NOT the power or being in power, but was sitting at his right hand “Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.” This also clearly shows he, Christ, is NOT God (YHWH). This scripture is related to what is said in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.” (AV). Interestingly this scripture clearly proves they are two distinct entities as “For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.” By showing that his Father, God (YHWH) put all under Christ except himself.]

To learn more, go to:

www.network54.com/Forum/391186

And,

www.network54.com/Forum/391561

And,

www.network54.com/Forum/t...1125546132


Your Friend in Christ Iris89

Sitting at the right hand of somebody means being given the place of honour, nothing more and nothing less. Christ being seated at the right hand of the Father means that He has been given that place of honour, then. Given that the text is clearly metaphorical (unless you believe that there's really some heavenly banqueting table with the Father at its head) this just shows that the Son has the place of honour directly after the Father. Quite what this has to do with the Trinity or how you can argue that it is evidence against Triadology is beyond me, however. (I would, however, say that it is - though how compelling some may find it is questionable - evidence against the filioquist position of the Council of Toledo and the RCC as that doctrine makes the Son and Father ontologically equal in every respect and the Holy Spirit subordinate).

James

Hi IacobPersul

FIRST, You said,

Sitting at the right hand of somebody means being given the place of honour, nothing more and nothing less. Christ being seated at the right hand of the Father means that He has been given that place of honour, then. Given that the text is clearly metaphorical (unless you believe that there's really some heavenly banqueting table with the Father at its head) this just shows that the Son has the place of honour directly after the Father.

Click to expand...

is symbolic and is a case of the thoughts of God (YHWH) being put into the words of men. Remember, the Bible is NOT the product of one committee or strongman. It has over 40 individual writers who wrote under divine inspiration/guidance much as transcribing secretaries today taking transcription and then later typing it out. In other words one real author, God (YHWH), and many scribes each of whom wrote in his own style over a period of approximately 1,600 years. All of what people call or consider inconsistencies are really not such, but most often just a problem of translation and/or understanding, i.e., lack of understanding of what the original writer writing in his own language and culture meant/said in his original writing. What is remarkable, is the writers over such a period of time all wrote in harmony when even most posters on threads on this forum can not even stay on track or subject over a period of a few days and/or weeks at most with the original subject of the thread. This fact of harmony over a period so great as to almost stagger the imagination shows that it had one guiding force or author who divinely inspired its writers as humans of their own volition can not keep on track over short periods of time.


To wit, the Bible is the ONLY book God (YHWH) ever inspired men to write as his scribes. In other words, God is its author and men only put his thoughts given to them by divine inspiration into their own words, the words of men. Not only that, all the other writers of later so called religious guidance books borrowed from it and made changes in accord with their strong man or so called prophet. Take the example of Joseph Smith who borrowed from it to write the Book of Mormon, but failed to give credit or source to the Bible and twisted some borrowed things into bizarre distortions. Other examples are of course the bizarre writings of David Koresh the Prophet of the Branch Dividians of Waco, Texas; and the Quran, etc.

SECOND, With respect the trinity, let's examine exactly what this false creedal doctrine is,

The Trinitarian dogma, The Cyclopoedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, New York 1871, by John M'Clintock and James Strong, Vol. II, page 560-561, states, "We worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the
persons, nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost.....The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal...So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Ghost almighty...So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet there are not three Gods, but one God...The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding...And in this Trinity none is afore or after other; none is greater or less than another. But the whole three persons are coeternal together, and coequal. So that in all things, as is afore said, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity." [this is the Athanasian Creed quoted in the above mentioned Cyclopoedia].

Click to expand...

As can be seen, for there to be a trinity you must have three like items and this creed states that the three are co-equal and co-eternal, which would definately be violated if one was superior and could assign a place of honor to another or as 1 Corinthians 15:27 says,"For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him." (Authorized King James Bible; AV) could put all things under another except himself. Now do you understand?

For more information, go to:

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http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=388928&messageid=1123541937&lp=1123541937

And,

http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=388928&messageid=1122422848&lp=1122422848

And,

http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=388928&messageid=1108488823&lp=1109893851

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

IacobPersul said:

Sitting at the right hand of somebody means being given the place of honour, nothing more and nothing less. Christ being seated at the right hand of the Father means that He has been given that place of honour, then. Given that the text is clearly metaphorical (unless you believe that there's really some heavenly banqueting table with the Father at its head) this just shows that the Son has the place of honour directly after the Father. Quite what this has to do with the Trinity or how you can argue that it is evidence against Triadology is beyond me, however. (I would, however, say that it is - though how compelling some may find it is questionable - evidence against the filioquist position of the Council of Toledo and the RCC as that doctrine makes the Son and Father ontologically equal in every respect and the Holy Spirit subordinate).

James

Click to expand...

I would agree with all that. and for the Trinity to Exist it must be equal. Differing functions I wold not argue about. But all, of God and all equal.

Terry
_____________________________-
Amen! Truly I say to you: Gather in my name. I am with you.

Well, skipping over the first part of your answer, which told me nothing new (though I'm relieved to see that you didn't think there was a literal banquetting table in heaven - I've known some who might well have done), I'd like to get to your quote on the Trinity. That is NOT the doctrine of the Trinity defended by the Church in the Ecumenical Councils, but the doctrine as altered by the Council of Toledo and one of the major reasons for the Schism between Rome and the other four (Orthodox) Patriarchates of the Pentarchy. There is indeed a heirarchy of sorts in the Trinity as taught by the Councils (and also by the filioquists, though a distorted one with Holy Spirit subordinate to the other Two). It is this:

All three Hypostases, Father, Son and Holy Spirit share the same substance, but the Father is the source of the Godhead as He is the only unbegotten and unproceeded Hypostasis. Both the Son and the Holy Spirit have their source in the Father, the former being eternally begotten and the latter eternally proceeded from Him (and Him alone, contrary to the RC position you quoted and which was accepted by many Protestants). Note that eternal means without beginning or end. This explains why the Son can refer to the Father as His God.

As I said in my previous post, I can see the 'right hand' quote as being an argument against the filioquist position, but that is a distortion, rather than the definition, of Triadology. I cannot see how you can use the same Scripture to argue against the actual belief in the Trinity defended via the original Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed.

James

Hi IacobPersul

I can see how you may feel this way if you do not realize what the Spirit and/or Holy Spirit is. Now let's consider just what this Spirit is. Now what is this Spirit or Holy Spirit that John the Baptist mentioned at John 1:32, ""And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the holy Ghost." (AV)? The Holy Spirit is only God's (YHWH's) active force and not even a spirit being or person. This is clearly shown at Pentecost where the Holy Spirit was poured out onto all there, Acts 2:1-4, "And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." (AV). This entire scripture bespeaks of a force and not a being as you do not get filled with a being! And this fact is reaffirmed at Acts 4:31, ""And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spoke the word of God with boldness." (AV); And 2 Corinthians 1:21-22, "Now he which established us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; 22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts." (AV), surely a being would not be in our hearts as that is ludicrous, thus this scripture talks of God's (YHWH's) active force; This is clearly shown at Luke 11:13, "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" (AV). Once more, why? Why? Do many say they are coequal and coeternal when clearly they are not and the Holy Ghost is just God's (YHWH's) active force? Only to try to give some resemblance of reality to a myth as we shall later see. An interesting note on the Spirit is that the neuter Greek word for spirit (pneu'ma) is used, the neuter pronoun "it" is properly employed. This fact is conveniently over looked or hidden by most Trinitarian translators as admitted in the "New American Bible Catholic Bible," regarding John 14:17: "The Greek word for 'Spirit' is neuter, and while we use personal pronouns in English ('he,' 'his,' 'him'), most Greek MSS [manuscripts] employ 'it.'" So when the Bible uses masculine personal pronouns in connection with pa·ra'kle·tos at John 16:7, 8, it is conforming to rules of grammar, not expressing a doctrine. And in Ancient Hebrew the word here rendered Holy Ghost, Holy Spirit, or Spirit which is translated from 'ru'ach' meaning "breath; wind; spirit." In Latin, it is spiritus, and in Sanskrit, 'prana' which means both "breath" and "spirit"



So it is clear that the Spirit is not a being but is God's (YHWH's) active force which he gives to both his Son, Jesus (Yeshua) and to his followers that he gave to him. This is made even clearer at 1 Corinthians 12:13, "For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit. And Hebrews 2:4 clearly reveals it as from him, "God also bearing witness with them, both by signs and wonders, and by manifold powers, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to his own will." (ASV); And affirmed at 2 Peter 1:21, "For no prophecy ever came by the will of man: but men spake from God, being moved by the Holy Spirit." (ASV). Interestingly many ancient manuscripts with respect part of 1 Corinthians 12:4-11, in part read as follows, "Vulgate, Syriac, and Coptic [all important ancient manuscripts] read, "(the Lord God of the) spirits (of the prophets)." The Lord God who with His Spirit inspired their spirits so as to be able to prophesy. There is but one Spirit, but individual prophets, according to the measure given them " Thus it is obvious that the Spirit or Holy Spirit is God's (YHWH's) active force or power which he 'pours' out to his Son, Jesus (Yeshua) and to the faithful followers as necessary to get his will accomplished.

So as we can see, the Holy Spirit is not a being at all but the power and/or force of God (YHWH) some of which he has given to his only begotten Son, Jesus (Yeshua).


Your Friend in Christ Iris89

IacobPersul said:

Sitting at the right hand of somebody means being given the place of honour, nothing more and nothing less. Christ being seated at the right hand of the Father means that He has been given that place of honour, then. Given that the text is clearly metaphorical (unless you believe that there's really some heavenly banqueting table with the Father at its head) this just shows that the Son has the place of honour directly after the Father. Quite what this has to do with the Trinity or how you can argue that it is evidence against Triadology is beyond me, however. (I would, however, say that it is - though how compelling some may find it is questionable - evidence against the filioquist position of the Council of Toledo and the RCC as that doctrine makes the Son and Father ontologically equal in every respect and the Holy Spirit subordinate).

James

Click to expand...

I agree James; I found a what seems like credible explanation here:-http://www.letusreason.org/Onenes10.htm


To sit at ones right hand means a place of authority, it was a place of honor it meant dignity and rulership. Throughout the O.T there is used what are called anthropomorphism to describe God in some function or characteristic. this is figurative language describing a certain characteristic of God it is describing his divine actions from a human view point.

For example there are the scriptures such as the eyes of the Lord go to and through upon the earth. There are mention of his ears, feet, mouth, back, fingers, arms, and hands. None of these should be taken in the solid literal sense that God has form as a human creature, these are meant to communicate something of his being of service. Examples

God is called a shield, a buckler, a high tower, a vine, a door, a hen, the Lion of the tribe of Judah his eyes run to and fro upon the earth. Men are called sheep, lambs, salt, branches, we seek his face (do we really look for his face literally) we are to keep our eyes on Jesus (can we really see him).

Their are examples of his arm which was a symbol of his power. the arm was used as the agency of strength, when the Bible refers the arm of the Lord it is consistently about the son, as God reaches into the Earth to do his work. Ex.6:6 the Lord redeemed Israel "with an outstretched arm." Isa.53:1 " to who has the arm of the Lord been revealed." Isa.63:5 "therefore my own arm brought salvation for me. Also in like manner his hand is used to most often symbolize an activity of service.

Isa.48:13 'speaks of his hand laying the foundation of the Earth, and my right hand spanned the heavens..." Isa.62:8 " the Lord has sworn by his right hand, and by his arm of strength." Isa. 59:1" the Lord's hand is not shortened that it cannot save."

We also have numerous scriptures combining both the arm and hand. Duet. 26:8 " so the Lord brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm." ( also Duet.5:15, 7:19, 11:2; Ps.44:3; Jer. 32:21; Ez. 20:33) We need to distinguish when anthropormorphic or symbolic terms are used and when they are not.

The term at the right hand of God points to his exalted position he now is active on. There is numerous things that need to be considered to understand this phrase. The phrase right hand is a metaphor, God exercises his authority by his right hand.

Right after Peter writes of the resurrection he says 1 Pt.3:22 Who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having made subject to him". If he is God the Father then they are already subjected to him, If he is only a man, then the ruling of the universe is in a humans hands. So it is as in Mt.28:18 all authority was given to him in both heaven and earth. This is something he did not have as he came to earth in a state of humility Phil.2:5-8.

The term to lift up in Greek is epeirthei which means to lift up, it is in the passive state showing us that the Son was taken to heaven by God the Father. He was received up to him and sat down next to him continuing to function in his high priestly office.

Jesus returned to Father sitting down showing his work is done. Jn.14:28, 16:16,17, 20:17. Their is now a man at the right hand of God the Father, who is God the Son. Acts 2:32-35, Heb.10:12, Eph. 1:20, 1 Pt. 3:22. He is now functioning in his high priestly ministry Rom.8:34; Heb. 4:14-16, 7:24-25.

1 Tim.2:5. Because of his exaltation and new position he is able to send the Holy Spirit Acts 2:33, Jn. 7:39, and give spiritual gifts to the Church Eph. 4:7-11.

Ps. 80:17 " Let your hand be on the man of your right hand, upon the Son of man whom you made strong for yourself." The Son of man was a messianic term for the messiah, coming in human flesh.

While the phrase right hand means prominence some argue that there is only one person on the throne. Yet the scripture reads the right hand of God.

Eph. 3:11 Christ is sitting at the right hand of God." The question that arises is God a person? Yes, and we find that Christ Jesus is sitting at the Fathers right hand.The father is a person (not human of course)The Son is also a person as both God and man. . However we know from other scriptures the Son was sent by the Father from heaven and is later received back to his former place by the Father.

Ps.110:1 "The Lord said to my Lord sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool." In Heb. 1:13 we find it is the Father who says to the Son " to which of the angels has he ever said, sit at my right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool." Notice I will make your enemies, whose enemies, God's enemies. The question that arises is God a person? Yes, and we find that Christ Jesus is sitting at the Fathers right hand. Since there is only one at a time which one of these is not a person? The Father is designating a different place of position to the son.

Bernard and others insists "this passage describes the dual nature of Christ, with the spirit of God (the Lord) speaking prophetically to the human manifestation of Christ (the Lord)." (p.107). the Lord is speaking to himself as the Lord not only the man. Notice he says your enemies, not my enemies. Are they only the enemy of his humanity or of his whole person? Bernard says we should note the word until. Have his enemies been made his footstool? No this event has not happen, this will occur at the 2nd coming. So he's still at the right hand he didn't change into the Holy spirit.

In Eph.1:20 " according to his mighty power which he ( the Father) worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places." So we find that there are two persons involved here. the one who raised Jesus and sat him next to him. God is a person not an it, nor just a title he is the Lord Jesus next to the Father, not just the humanity. Heb 1:3 says he sat down at the right hand of majesty, Heb. 8:1 the right hand of the throne of majesty."Heb.1:8 The Father speaking-" But to the Son he says "Your throne, O God is forever and ever... God, even thy God, hath anointed you with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." Here is God the Father saying to the Son he is God and his throne is eternal. According to the Oneness view the Son is only his humanity. Bernard says "the first portion of the above passage clearly refers to the deity in the Son, while the second portion refers to the humanity of the Son." Again he attributes this to prophecy of the future incarnation of God in the flesh. (p.121)

The term at the right hand of God points to his exalted position he now is active in. The phrase right hand is a figurative expression of a literal event. God exercises his authority by his right hand.

Acts 5:31 Him (Christ) God has exalted to his right hand to be prince and savior. Only God is the savior.

Rev.4:2 John sees the same scene that Stephen did in Acts 7, a throne set in heaven and one who sat on the throne ( God ). Rev.5:6-7 Stood a lamb as though it had been slain...vs.7 and he came to take the scroll out of the right hand of him who sat upon the throne." The lamb is Identified as Jesus and the one who sits on the throne is the Father. We then see the angels and the creatures and the elders worship both the lamb and the Father. vs.13 " Blessing and honor and glory and power be to him who sits upon the throne and to the lamb, forever and ever." According to Oneness the lamb who is only the man is being worshipped in heaven, now we have idolatry going on in heaven! Certainly Jesus is still the God/man and the father is distinct from him as he is sitting and Jesus is not.

Rev3:21" to him who overcomes I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, as I also overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne." Whether the thrones are literal is inconsequential right now to what we want to distinguish. Here we have a analogy of us sitting down on his throne, just as he did on his Fathers throne. Clearly two individuals are portrayed. In Hebrews the father says to the Son 1:8 your throne is forever, O God. He goes on and says to the Son "you Lord in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the work of your hands,"The father calls the Son God, he does not call him Father. Neither does Jesus call the Father Jesus.

Right hand of God Rom. 8:34, Col.3:1, Eph. 3:20 Heb. 10;12, 12:2,1 Pt. 3:21

Right hand of power Mt. 26:64 Mk.14:62,

The Lord said to my Lord. Mt.22:43-45, Mk.12:35-37, Lk.20:41-44

Hi Michael

I read what you posted from the web site, and it essentially agrees with what I posted that started this thread. Also, I found the link useful.

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

Iris,

Arguments based on grammatical gender are completely usustainable. Many languages behave in this way and the fact that Koine does does not negate the personal language used of the Holy Spirit, such as using 'who', various titles and the like, unless of course you are willing to use the word 'who' with respect to other forces like gravity or magnetism. The Scriptures are perfectly clear, even in the original Greek, that the Holy Spirit is not an impersonal force. This, however, is a side issue as the Holy Spirit is not mentioned at all in the context of Christ being seated at the right hand of the Father. Am I to assume that you are conceding defeat in respect to this passage arguing against the Trinity (as defended in the original, unaltered Creed), or do you have further arguments related to the passage and the non-filioquist Trinitarian position?

James

Hi IacobPersul

You overlook the root word, the Hebrew word here rendered Holy Ghost, Holy Spirit, or Spirit which is translated from 'ru'ach' meaning "breath; wind; spirit." Thus the idea that the holy spirit is the third person of a Trinity, when in fact the Bible does not support the Holy Ghost or Spirit as being a being at all, is absurd. For example, "The Catholic Encyclopedia:" states, "Nowhere in the Old Testament do we find any clear indication of a Third Person." And Catholic theologian Fortman states, "The Jews never regarded the spirit as a person; nor is there any solid evidence that any Old Testament writer held this view. . . . The Holy Spirit is usually presented in the Synoptics [Gospels] and in Acts as a divine force or power." Whereas, "The New Catholic Encyclopedia" states, "The O[ld] T[estament] clearly does not envisage God's spirit as a person . . . God's spirit is simply God's power. If it is sometimes represented as being distinct from God, it is because the breath of Yahweh acts exteriorly." It also states, "The majority of N[ew] T[estament] texts reveal God's spirit as something, not someone; this is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God." And "A Catholic Dictionary," states, "On the whole, the New Testament, like the Old, speaks of the spirit as a divine energy or power."

Also, I well know that gender of words in some languages does not imply actual gender in many cases as my native language is that way, but a force or power is always in actuality without gender, i.e., and it.

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

Iris,

I disagree with both you and your RC sources regarding the Holy Spirit and, to be honest, from a Trinitarian standpoint it really doesn't matter whether the Old Testament Jews considered the Holy Spirit to be an impersonal force or not either as the Trinity had not yet been revealed then. I'm also somewhat bothered by your appeal to Hebrew when the New Testament was written in Greek. Having said that, the greek word for spirit, pneuma, also at it's root means breath or wind. I don't however, see how that argues against His being a divine Hypostasis. After all, the Scriptures say God is spirit but I doubt that even a monist such as yourself would argue from this that He is not a personal God, but rather some impersonal force. Your argument here lacks consistency, to my mind.

However, as I previously stated, all this is a side issue, having nothing to do with the argument of your opening post and you have yet to provide any argument to back up your claim that Christ being seated at the right hand of the Father proves the Trinity (as properly understood) false. Am I to assume that this is because you are unable to do so? I'm afraid that if you fail again to answer this question I will be forced to conclude that this is indeed the case. I have no desire to be sidetracked into a discussion of the nature of the Holy Spirit when we are supposed to be discussing the nature of Christ.

I would finally just like to ask, as you are a monist of some sort, just who exactly do you believe Christ was if not God the Son Incarnate?

James

Hi IacobPersul



FIRST, It has never been revealed to anyone as it is but a myth. The holy spirit is but God’s (YHWH’s) active force and/or power and NOT a spirit individual at all. First, you do NOT pour an individual out on others yet the holy spirit was at Pentecost and many other places in the Bible. The ancient Hebrews never used the term, 'RU'ACH', translated ‘spirit’ in English for beings, yet you seem to be trying to apply it that way, something is wrong when one does that. For assistance in learning more about this fact, go to:


http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=388928&messageid=1108469292&lp=1108489334

And,

http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=388928&messageid=1108487629&lp=1109893740


SECOND, The scriptures do say God (YHWH) is a spirit, but the word translated spirit in this context is very different from the Hebrew ‘ru’ach’ and instead refers to a spirit being.



THIRD, My original post already provided this argument, that the Trinity can not be, in specific comments after each scripture and I am NOT going to repost same and clutter the BB needlessly. But here is something along that line to help you see the Truth,



John 5:26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself



John 6:57 Just as the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever eats me will live because of me.



By the words of Jesus, Jesus was not eternal; he was given to have life in himself and lives because of the Father. A eternal being cannot be given to have life in themselves, and they do not depend on others to live.



Your Friend in Christ Iris89

Iris,

I apologize, first of all, for not reading your entire treatise. Instead, I'll cut right to the chase. We all know of several verses in which Jesus Christ is said to be sitting at the right hand of God. To me this clearly indicates two things:

1. The Father and the Son must be physically distinct from one another.

2. They must both have physical bodies. Otherwise, there could exist no spacial relationship between them.

Hi katzpur

You are correct when you say,

1. The Father and the Son must be physically distinct from one another.

Click to expand...

The second item needs a little explaination,

2. They must both have physical bodies. Otherwise, there could exist no spacial relationship between them.

Click to expand...

We really do not know what form spirit beings actually exist in as the Bible is silent on the matter, but we do know they are beings.

So glad you liked and learned from my post.

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

Allow me to jump in here...

I take a somewhat unique approch to the issue of the Trinity. I do not understand the Scriptures to teach God as a Trinity, but I do uphold the full Deity / Godhead of Jesus Christ. I know that this forum is not specifically dealingwith the Theology of the Godhead, yet in a question of this sort, one cannot help but venture there in order to fully answer the quesiton.
The scriptures DO NOT teach that Jesus of Nazareth was "eternally begotten." There is nothing substantial in scripture to support this doctrine (though there are verses that seem to imply it, they are all prophetic in nature, looking forward to the coming "Son of God").
This is not to say that Jesus did not pre-exist His earthly sojourn, but He did not exist as a Son prior to His birth of the virgin Mary. God, Who is an eternal, omnipresent Spirit, chose to manifest HIMSELF in the flesh; chose to humble Himself and become in every way a part of His creation. Hebrews said that He was made "for a short time lower than the angels for the suffering of death...that by the grace of God should taste death for every man." And again, "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil." While Jesus walked the earth in the flesh (though He were God Almighty in Spirit), it was required that He taste of the frailty of man, and overcome that frailty by relying upon God. Attempting to prove a separation in the Godhead of Jesus the Son and God the Father using events of Christ's life while in the flesh is futile. Of course He prayed to His Father! He took part of the creation from which previously He had been utterly separate and above. Now He was subject to the myraid passions of man, INCLUDING our utter dependance upon God. Jesus, however, embraced that dependance, whereas we tend to spurn it. When Jesus ascended back into heaven, He was restored to the full glory which was His before His earthly manifestation (John 17:5; also comp. Dan. 7:9, 10 & Rev. 1:13-15).

So, when the scriptures tell us that Christ is seated at the right hand of God, it is not talking about an actual physical, spacial position. God is omnipresent Spirit. It would be physically impossible to be "at his right hand." The scripture in question says, "Sit at my right hand till I make thine enemies thy footstool." Just as we do not believe that God is actually going to bring the enemies of Jesus before Him for Jesus to rest His feet on while He reclines, so we ought not to understand this scripture to mean that Christ is at the actual "right hand" of God. It was a prophetic poem, using poetic language to convey a truth.

I must here wholeheartedly disagree with a previous statement made:

Some incorrectly claim this ["at God's right hand"] means Jesus (Yeshua) was in the position of ultimate power, but the scriptures clearly show that his Father, Almighty God (YHWH) was in the position of ultimate power. Jesus (Yeshua) was acting as his ‘right-hand-man’ since that is what the ancient expression of sitting on the right hand of power meant.

Click to expand...

Actually, in ancient culture, if a King brought someone to His right hand, it was absolutely a statement saying that this person was now in a place of utter equality and authority with the king, not below, not above (see 1Kings 2:19 - Solomon places Bath-Sheba at his right hand after bowing down to her).

An Omnipresent Spirit does not need a throne, nor would there be a throne big enough for Him to sit in. Therefore, all references to "thrones" are symbolic of God's authority & majesty. There is another scripture which interestingly states that Jesus is actually seated directly in the throne of His Father, not to the right hand! (Rev. 3:21). Again, "throne" is symbolic of authority and dominion and power. For Jesus to be seated in His Father's throne, He must have the full authority of God.

The only confusion that can arise here, is the quesiton of how God can GIVE this authority to His Son. The answer is actually quite simple. We must remeber that this carnal manifestation of God, though he was God, was also man and separate from God ("great is the mystery of godliness, that God was manifest in the flesh" - 1Tim. 3:16). Therefore, even though in eternity past Christ was one with God, He "proceeded forth and came from God" to earth for our salvation. After His condescension, He had to be exalted once more. "Lift up your heads o ye gates, and be ye lift up ye everlasting doors, and the King of glory shall come in." There is none other than God who can fit this description "king of glory," and yet we find this king outside of the "everlasting doors" about to be ushered in. This is the heavenly coronation of Christ back to His official place as King and Ruler of all creation. However, how can our finite minds comprehend this man being God? How else could the eternal majesty of Christ be explained than to say that He would be seated at the right hand of God? It was this statement from Jesus' lips ("you shall see me seated at the right hand of God") that sent the religious leaders into a frenzy which finally resulted in His crucifixion (because they understand exactly what He was saying). It was the proclamation of Stephen's vision of "the glory of God, and Christ standing at the right hand of God," that caused the religious leaders again to rush on him and gnash their teeth and ultimately to stone him to death. This statement, that Christ is seated that right hand of God, is the primary language with which the early church identified the Deity of Christ. They didn't have words like "trinity," or "hypostatic union," they used terminology which was familiar to them.

I understand that I am saying some radical things here, but I think scripture really bears it out.

Iris, I feel the need to mention that I find the fact that you regularly back up some of your statements by refering to articles that you have written on other sites; it seems of little value if the purpose is to reinforce the point you are making;


I would, however, like to quote a piece about the trinity, and I would like opinions on this 'take':
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t002.html
The doctrine of the Trinity -- that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are each equally and eternally the one true God -- is admittedly difficult to comprehend, and yet is the very foundation of Christian truth. Although skeptics may ridicule it as a mathematical impossibility, it is nevertheless a basic doctrine of Scripture as well as profoundly realistic in both universal experience and in the scientific understanding of the cosmos.

Both Old and New Testaments teach the Unity and the Trinity of the Godhead. The idea that there is only one God, who created all things, is repeatedly emphasized in such Scriptures as Isaiah 45:18:

"For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; ...I am the Lord; and there is none else."

A New Testament example is James 2:19:

"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well; the devils also believe, and tremble."

The three persons of the Godhead are, at the same time, noted in such Scriptures as Isaiah 48:16:

"I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, there am I; and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me."

The speaker in this verse is obviously God, and yet He says He has been sent both by The Lord God (that is, the Father) and by His Spirit (that is, the Holy Spirit).

The New Testament doctrine of the Trinity is evident in such a verse as John 15:26, where the Lord Jesus said:

"But when the Comforter is come whom I will send unto you from the Father, He shall testify of me."

Then there is the baptismal formula:

"baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matthew 28:19).

One name (God) -- yet three names!

JESUS -- That Jesus, as the only-begotten Son of God, actually claimed to be God, equal with the Father, is clear from numerous Scriptures. For example, He said:

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Revelation 1:8).

HOLY SPIRIT -- Some cults falsely teach that the Holy Spirit is an impersonal divine influence of some kind, but the Bible teaches that He is a real person, just as are the Father and the Son. Jesus said:

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak; and he will show you things to come" (John 16:13).

TRI-UNITY -- The teaching of the Bible concerning the Trinity might be summarized thus. God is a Tri-unity, with each Person of the Godhead equally and fully and eternally God. Each is necessary, and each is distinct, and yet all are one. The three Persons appear in a logical, causal order. The Father is the unseen, omnipresent Source of all being, revealed in and by the Son, experienced in and by the Holy Spirit. The Son proceeds from the Father, and the Spirit from the Son. With reference to God's creation, the Father is the Thought behind it, the Son is the Word calling it forth, and the Spirit is the Deed making it a reality.


We "see" God and His great salvation in the Son of God, the Lord Jesus Christ, then "experience" their reality by faith, through the indwelling presence of His Holy Spirit.

Though these relationships seem paradoxical, and to some completely impossible, they are profoundly realistic, and their truth is ingrained deep in man's nature. Thus, men have always sensed first the truth that God must be "out there," everywhere present and the First Cause of all things, but they have corrupted this intuitive knowledge of the Father into pantheism and ultimately into naturalism.

Similarly, men have always felt the need to "see" God in terms of their own experience and understanding, but this knowledge that God must reveal Himself has been distorted into polytheism and idolatry. Men have thus continually erected "models" of God, sometimes in the form of graven images, sometimes even in the form of philosophical systems purporting to represent ultimate reality.

Finally, men have always known that they should be able to have communion with their Creator and to experience His presence "within." But this deep intuition of the Holy Spirit has been corrupted into various forms of false mysticism and fanaticism, and even into spiritism and demonism. Thus, the truth of God's tri-unity is ingrained in man's very nature, but he has often distorted it and substituted a false god in its place.

hI jeffrosmn vbmenu_register("postmenu_227452", true);

Please go to the following and learn the facts about Jesus (Yeshua),

http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=391186&messageid=1109199128&lp=1109199128

And on the Trinity, go to,

http://www.network54.com/Forum/388928

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

to me I see this is the right hand man. The man that does JAH works. we can all be the right hand man if we choose to do JAH works set forth by the examples of Jesus and Halie Selassie I.
Blessed Love

Hi Michel

I beg to differ with you on the trinity, go to the following,

http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=388928&messageid=1126044068&lp=1126046553

And,

http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=388928&messageid=1116197899&lp=1119041288

And,

http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=388928&messageid=1108469292&lp=1108489334

And,

http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=388928&messageid=1108487629&lp=1109893740

You will find that in each of my articles, everything I say is backed up either with scripture and/or history from renown history books, encyclopedias, etc. I do NOT post opinions as I am a very careful independent Bible researcher, but I often refer to other articles I have written in the interest of time economy.

Your Friend in Christ Iris89