-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
One-on-One Discussion between Wordna and Katzpur
- Thread starter Katzpur
- Start date
Are there any Old Testament passages in the KJV that are referenced to support the connection of these tribes to Israel? It seems strange that a culture obsessed (at least from our perspective) with genealogies wouldn't mention two tribes that left the rest of Israel.
It seems to me that there are a lot of passages that promise Jesus' ongoing presence through the Holy Spirit and it could easily be argued that "them also I must bring" refers to the spread of the gospel through His church.
I am with you always, even unto the end of the world - Matt. 28:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. - Matt. 18:20
For I am with thee - Act 18:10
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. - Matt. 18:20
For I am with thee - Act 18:10
How do you reconcile the verses describing Jesus' accession directly to heaven:
So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. - Mark 16:19
And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them. And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven. - Luke 24:50-51
The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen - Acts 1:1-2
And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. - Acts 1:9-11
And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them. And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven. - Luke 24:50-51
The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen - Acts 1:1-2
And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. - Acts 1:9-11
Was Maroni an angel or a human? Where are the plates?
Can you unpack this statement a little? I understand that Mormons don't believe in the Trinity? How are the Father, Son and Spirit related?
What is necessary for salvation? It sounds like "obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel?
Perhaps you explain this in your next post, but what New Testament references do you draw upon to demonstrate that the Mormon church is organized "in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church?"
Do this mean there are errors in the KJV but not in the Book of Mormon? Doesn't this automatically create a hierarchy of authority? Why use the KJV then if it is not regarded as the most accurate translation any more?
What does the line "let them worship...what they may" mean? Are there may paths to salvation?
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Oh, all right!Girls can be confusing and cause headaches as well
We believe that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh. While we believe that God is the Father of the spirits of each and every person who has ever lived, and that we are all His spirit offspring, Jesus Christ is most definitely in a class by Himself. He was with His Father in the beginning. Under His Father's direction, He created worlds without number. He was chosen to be "the Lamb" prior to the foundation of this world. He sits today on the right hand of His Father. Along with the Holy Ghost, the Father and the Son make up the Godhead.
We believe that our Father in Heaven and His Son Jesus Christ have a true father-son relationship. The words, "Father" and "Son," in other words, mean exactly what they say. They are not metaphorical or symbolic of a vague metaphysical relationship, in which two beings are some how both part of a single essence. We are each the physical sons and daughters of our mortal parents. Jesus Christ is the literal, physical Son of a divine Father and a mortal Mother. He was conceived in a miraculous way, but like all sons, was in the "express image of His Father's person." That is to say, He looked like Him. Dogs beget puppies, and cats beget kittens. God beget a Son who is the same species as He is. They both have bodies of flesh and bone (although, until His birth in Bethlehem, Jesus Christ was a spirit being only).
The Father and the Son are physically distinct from one another, and yet they are also "one." This doctrine is taught in the Book of Mormon as well as in the Bible. We just understand the word "one" to mean something other than physical substance or essence. We believe they are "one in will and purpose, one in mind and heart, and one in power and glory." It would be impossible to explain, or even to understand, the degree of their unity. It is perfect; it is absolute. They think, feel and act as "one God." Because of this perfect unity, and because they share the title of "God," we think of them together in this way. It would be impossible for us to worship one of them without also worshipping the other.
Most Christians also use the words co-equal and co-eternal to describe the relationship between the Father and the Son. We do not. We believe that, as is again the case with all fathers and sons, the Father existed prior to His Son. No son's existence precedes his father's, and Jesus Christ is no exception to this rule. We also believe Christ to be subordinate to His Father. He is divine because of His relationship with His Father. It is, however, important to understand what we mean when we use the word "subordinate." We understand that the Son holds a subordinate position in the relationship; we do not believe Him to be an inferior being. The best way I can think to explain that (if it doesn't already make sense) is to say that a colonel, for example, holds an inferior position to a general, but is not an inferior being. An ant, on the other hand, is generally considered by most people to be inferior being when compared to a human.
That's how I would explain our understanding of Jesus' relationship to His Father. With respect to us, He is our Savior and Redeemer. He is the only means by which we can be forgiven of our sins and reconciled to God. It is through Him that all who have ever lived will someday be resurrected. In addition to being our Savior, He is also the best example we have ever been given for how God wants us to live. He lived a perfect life and we should try to emulate Him in all we do.
As I more or less explained in my post of Church organization, but probably not adequately since it was not my intention to emphasize the point, we believe in the absolute necessary of God-given priesthood authority. Even if a church was teaching 100% correct doctrines, it would not be the Church sanctioned by Christ since those in leadership positions had not been given the power and authority to act in God's name. We believe that Christ chose and ordained His Twelve Apostles and actually conferred upon them the power to perform miracles in the name of God, to speak on behalf of God, and to officiate in ordinances that would have eternal significance. (This is what we believe Christ was referring to when He told Peter that he would be able to bind in Heaven those things which he would bind on earth.)
That the original organization of the Church (with Prophets and Apostles) was intended to be permanent in nature is pretty clear from the scriptures, and even to some extent from early tradition. Whenever an Apostle died, another man was called to fill the vacancy his death created. Matthias was almost immediately called to replace Judas. Paul and Barnabus were also called, even though the scriptures don't specifically mention who it was they replaced. Finally, James (the brother the Jesus) is referred to as an Apostle (in Galatians, if I'm not mistaken). The way things worked out, though, most, if not all, of the Apostles were martyred before having had the opportunity to ordain someone to replace them. Remember, it is impossible for a man to pass on authority he doesn't hold himself. Once all of the Apostles were dead, there was simply no one left who held the authority Jesus Christ had given them. This, of course, was not God's doing. Men were responsible for the fact that the Church fell into apostasy, not God -- although He knew it would happen, just as surely as He knew Adam and Eve would succumb to Satan's temptings. Christ could conceivably have re-established the Church immediately, but probably with the same results. So, it is our belief that He waited until the time was right. We see all of the major events in history following the Apostasy as being significant, from the development of the printing press to the Protestant Reformation to Columbus' discovery of the New World, to the settling of the United States to the American Revolution. All of these things, in the LDS view, paved the way for the original Church to be re-established. Please understand that we do not believe that Christianity ever ceased to exist entirely once it was established by Jesus Christ. We just believe that many of the things He taught were either lost or came to be misunderstood during the first few hundred years following His death.
As to why the re-established Church has continued to exist, we would say that it is primarily due to the fact that it was established in a free country where men and women were able to worship God as they saw fit. True this freedom of religion did not always seem to be extended to members of the LDS Church, but as long as the leadership of the Church (the prophets and apostles) were able to survive, the Church would not fall into apostasy a second time. We were, of course, driven out of the United States, and every effort was made to destroy the Church completely. Fortunately, it was able to survive. This was unfortunately not the case in the first century A.D. under the Roman Empire.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I'm going to address the questions pertaining specifically to the Book of Mormon in one post and to the rest of them in another post.
I realize that you will likely have a different interpretation of the following verses that we LDS have, but I will just mention Ezekiel 37:15-20, which states:
The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand. And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these? Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
We believe the Stick of Judah is the Bible and that the Stick of Joseph is the Book of Mormon, that the two are companion books of scripture, each one the history of a different group of people.
Or, let's put it this way... We do believe that the Apostles saw Jesus ascending "toward heaven." Unless they actually witnessed his arrival there, it is possible that He first visited the people living in the Americas first. Or, it is entirely possible that He ascended first into Heaven and then appeared to the people in the Book of Mormon.
It was just two families that left Jesusalem, not two entire tribes. Consequently, they likely would not even have been missed except by those who knew them personally. They were descendents of Joseph (who was sold into Egypt), through Ephraim and Manasseh. The exact number of individuals who left Jerusalem in 600 B.C. is not known; it was probably just 30 to 40 or so. They were not known by the names "Nephites" and "Lamanites" until a number of years after they had been living on this continent.
I realize that you will likely have a different interpretation of the following verses that we LDS have, but I will just mention Ezekiel 37:15-20, which states:
The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand. And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these? Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
We believe the Stick of Judah is the Bible and that the Stick of Joseph is the Book of Mormon, that the two are companion books of scripture, each one the history of a different group of people.
As a Latter-day Saint, I do believe that Christ is always with His followers and always will be. Even though we have a firm belief that the "fulness" of the Gospel of Jesus Christ has been re-established and exists, along with the essential priesthood authority, only within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we absolutely do recognize Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, Episcopalians, etc. as Christians. We believe that there is much good in all of these Churches. Typically, however, they are quite happy to exclude us as being part of the Christian family, while we believe that anyone who (1) believes in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, (2) acknowledges Him as his Savior and as the only means by which He can be reconciled to God, (3) looks to Jesus Christ as his exemplar, and (4) considers himself to be a Christian IS one.
That's easy. I was wrong.
Or, let's put it this way... We do believe that the Apostles saw Jesus ascending "toward heaven." Unless they actually witnessed his arrival there, it is possible that He first visited the people living in the Americas first. Or, it is entirely possible that He ascended first into Heaven and then appeared to the people in the Book of Mormon.Moroni (pronounced Mor-OWN-eye) is often called "The Angel Moroni," but when he appeared to Joseph Smith, he did so as a resurrected human being. We actually believe that the vast, vast majority of the human race will be resurrected when Christ returns to Earth to begin His millennial reign. A few individuals, however, have been resurrected already, because they have important roles to play as heavenly messengers.
They were returned to Moroni when the translation was complete. Eleven individuals did, however, see and touch them.
Last edited:
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I've already described the relationship between the Father and the Son, so I'll just add this about the Holy Ghost: The third member of the Godhead is the Holy Ghost. Unlike the Father and the Son, the Holy Ghost is a person of spirit only. It is by virtue of this quality that He is able to both fill the universe and dwell in our hearts. It is through the Holy Ghost that God communicates to mankind. We come to understand spiritual truths through the witnessing of the Holy Ghost, who communicates with us on a spiritual plane. It is through Him that we come to know the Father and the Son.
Actually, this is a more difficult question than it may appear to be on the surface. First and foremost, we do not believe that there is anything any of us could do to save ourselves. There is no one who has ever lived (except for Jesus Christ himself) who has lived a righteous enough life that he has no need of a Savior. All of us have sinned and therefore we are all in the same boat. We all need Jesus Christ. I emphasize this because we are often accused of believing that we can save ourselves by our good works. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Now, a more specific answer depends upon what you mean by "salvation." If we are speaking of salvation from the grave, i.e. from the permanance of death, salvation requires little more of us than that we live and die. We believe that Jesus Christ's resurrection assures each and every person who has ever lived that he will one day be resurrected. This includes the non-believer as well as the believer, the non-Christian as well as the Christian, the non-Mormon as well as the Mormon. From that perspective, all who have lived will be "saved." No one will simply cease to exist.
If we are talking about who will end up in Heaven, we're talking about almost as large a group as will be resurrected. Mormonism teaches of an almost universal salvation. The only individuals who will be forever banned from Heaven to exist throughout eternity in what we refer to as "Outer Darkness." Those are the few who commit the unpardonable sin mentioned in the Bible -- blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. Since our understanding of what constitutes this sin may be different from yours, I'll explain why we believe very few individuals are even in a position to be able to commit it. We believe that in order to blaspheme against the Holy Ghost a person must have been given an essentially perfect understanding of the Father and the Son and then, in the face of this knowledge, flat out deny it. For instance, had Peter, having witnessed Jesus' Transfiguration first hand, have subsequently denied what he knew to be true -- that Jesus Christ was truly the Messiah, the Son of the living God, that would have been blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. There aren't a whole lot of people who are in that position.
Finally, if we are talking about receiving all of the blessings God has in store for His children, we are really referring to Exaltation. I don't know if your Church uses the words "justification" and "sanctification." If it does, you are aware that they are not interchangeable. To us, salvation can mean "justification" -- being made just in God's eyes through Jesus Christ's atoning sacrifice, being forgiven of one's sins, reconciled to God and allowed entrance into Heaven. It can also mean something more on the order of "sanctification" -- being made holy, sanctified, or granted exaltation. While every individual who does not commit blasphemy against the Holy Ghost will be saved/justified, those who are the most obedient to the laws of the gospel and receiving the ordinances prescribed by Jesus Christ will be sanctified/exalted.
A very long time ago, I started a thread in the LDS subforum on this subject since I was being asked so frequently to answer questions about our belief. Rather than say any more on the subject of salvation, I'll just refer you to posts #1, #3, and #4 in this thread: The LDS Doctrine of the Afterlife. It's quite a bit of reading, but will probably answer most of the questions that you may have after having read my answer to your question. I think it's fairly straightforward and comprehensive.
Last edited:
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Ephesians 4:11-14 is probably the one I see used most often. It states:
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive...
Unless I am mistaken, all other Christian denominations believe that prophets and apostles are no longer needed. They are described as the foundation upon which the Church was built (see Ephesians 2:20), with Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone. Paul's statement (above) does not seem to be saying that while we need actual evangelists, pastors and teachers, only the recorded words of dead prophets and apostles are needed. We need living prophets and apostles, to whom Jesus Christ can speak. If the foundation upon which the Church was built is not continually maintained it will crumble, and the remainder of the structure will no longer be able to stand. Obviously, any church could decide to create an organization with individuals called prophets and apostles, and I'm sure that from the perspective of other Christians, that's all we've done. As I've explained, we don't see it that way. We believe that God is choosing the men He wants to serve in this capacity and that when they accept these callings and are ordained to hold them, they are not only functioning exactly as the Peter and the other apostles did when Jesus called and ordained them, but that they hold the same authority and power as did the original Twelve.
Then, of course, we also have quorums or groups of Seventy to oversee missionary work throughout the world, and missionaries who travel in twos to spread the gospel. All of the missionaries serve at their own expense, not without "purse or scrip" as was the case anciently, but still at considerable expense and sacrifice. Bishops stand at the head of congregations, but they are all answerable to direction from the Twelve Apostles, as was the case in the early Church.
I can definitely see why it would appear that there would be an automatic heirarchy. We believe that when the biblical writings were first written, they were essentially a flawless record of God's word to His inspired prophets and apostles, just as we believe the same to be true of the Book of Mormon. In other words, God was the author of both books, according to our faith. If we had any of the original biblical manuscripts, there would probably have been no need for Joseph Smith to include the phrase, "as far as it is translated correctly" in the Article of Faith. But, since we don't, and since all we have today are copies of copies of copies of copies, both transcription and translation errors are logically likely to have crept into the manuscripts over time. In the case of the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith was translating from the original record and was being divinely directed in the process. All subsequent translations into foreign languages were translated directly from the English version of the Book of Mormon. There have simply been fewer human hands touch the Book of Mormon over the years than has been the case with the Bible. Furthermore, on the title page of the Book of Mormon, Joseph admitted to the possibility of errors and cautioned the reader to blame men, not God, for these. Neither Joseph Smith nor any of the prophets who have followed him have ever claimed to be infallible. Like all other human beings, they all have their own opinions, which they voice from time to time, and they have all made mistakes. Sometimes the members of the Church don't like to believe that's possible, but it is. (I once heard something that kind of made me laugh. It was: In the Catholic Church, the Pope's infallible, but nobody believes it. In the Mormon Church, the Prophet's fallible, but nobody believes it.
)One thing you should understand is that we never, ever, ever study the Bible in an effort to figure out what might be wrong with it. We study to learn from it. Period. As a matter of fact, in our adult Sunday School classes, we study the Bible for two years and then the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants for one year each before going back and starting the process over again. So we give the Bible the same amount of study as we do our own unique scriptures.
No, Jesus Christ is the only way. However, it's really a whole lot more involved than saying, "If you believe in Christ, you're saved. If you don't, you're damned." Remember, I mentioned that you could consider us to be essentially universalist in our view of salvation? Well, those three posts in the thread I posted a link two a couple of posts back will explain how we can believe that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation and yet believe that non-Christians will also be saved. You really need to read that to understand the full picture of how and when everything happens.
What the line "let them worship..what they may" really means is that we believe in religious freedom. It is truly amazing to me how so many (probably the majority) of non-LDS Christians believe that if we could, we would force everyone to join our Church. That is so contrary to what we really believe, it's not even funny. In our opinion, one of the greatest gifts God had ever given us is our free agency, or freedom of choice. Of course, there are consequences for wrong choices, but we don't believe God would coerce anyone into believing or behaving in a certain way, and the last thing we as Latter-day Saints would ever want to do is force our beliefs on other people. That is essentially what that particular Article of Faith is saying. We believe that all people should have the freedom to worship as they see fit.
Has anyone ever "abdicated" his position of Apostle?
First, if I ask a question you have already addressed in a subsequent post, just ignore it - I'm responding to your posts in roughly chronological order. I'm impressed you have time to write so much!
Can you unpack this comment a bit? My understand is "worlds without number" factor into the Mormon understanding of heaven, is that right?
If "Jesus Christ is the literal, physical Son of a divine Father and a mortal Mother", how can He have existed as spirit before His birth? Does that not mean He existed before being God's Son?
How can the Father have a body of "flesh and bone" given the large number of verses that declare God is Spirit (eg. John 4:24 "God is spirit")? A physical body would limit God to a specific location which seems contrary to numerous passages that declare His omnipresence.
What about passages such as John 8:58 - "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." This "I am" is present tense, signifying an ongoing, eternal existence that is incompatible with a beginning of existence. It is also noteworthy that this is the same title/name God uses to describe Himself to Moses. If Deuteronomy 6:4 ("Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD") and other passages declare God is one while Jesus declares Himself to be God through His statements and actions, how can one arrive at a Biblically faithfully understanding of the Godhead that does not involve the doctrine of the Trinity? Although I don't claim to fully understand this metaphysical reality, this tension between oneness and three persons is very evident in scripture.
I'm in the process of studying early church history and although I can definitely cite many examples of behaviour unbecoming of the church of Christ, there are were many devote believers who fought to maintain orthodoxy within the church. Although it would be very difficult to prove one way or the other, Biblical reference to Paul's ordination of Timothy does not appear to be an isolated instance of apostolic authority being passed on. Many early Christian writers based their authority on having been entrusted by their predecessors. Indeed Paul instructs Timothy to continue this practice, writing "And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also" (2 Tim. 1:13).
Can you unpack this comment a bit? My understand is "worlds without number" factor into the Mormon understanding of heaven, is that right?
If "Jesus Christ is the literal, physical Son of a divine Father and a mortal Mother", how can He have existed as spirit before His birth? Does that not mean He existed before being God's Son?
How can the Father have a body of "flesh and bone" given the large number of verses that declare God is Spirit (eg. John 4:24 "God is spirit")? A physical body would limit God to a specific location which seems contrary to numerous passages that declare His omnipresence.
What about passages such as John 8:58 - "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." This "I am" is present tense, signifying an ongoing, eternal existence that is incompatible with a beginning of existence. It is also noteworthy that this is the same title/name God uses to describe Himself to Moses. If Deuteronomy 6:4 ("Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD") and other passages declare God is one while Jesus declares Himself to be God through His statements and actions, how can one arrive at a Biblically faithfully understanding of the Godhead that does not involve the doctrine of the Trinity? Although I don't claim to fully understand this metaphysical reality, this tension between oneness and three persons is very evident in scripture.
I'm in the process of studying early church history and although I can definitely cite many examples of behaviour unbecoming of the church of Christ, there are were many devote believers who fought to maintain orthodoxy within the church. Although it would be very difficult to prove one way or the other, Biblical reference to Paul's ordination of Timothy does not appear to be an isolated instance of apostolic authority being passed on. Many early Christian writers based their authority on having been entrusted by their predecessors. Indeed Paul instructs Timothy to continue this practice, writing "And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also" (2 Tim. 1:13).
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
There have been a couple who were excommunicated. It's been years and years since it happened, though, and I don't know a thing about the details. As far as any of them voluntarily stepping down, not that I know of. I could be wrong, though.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
It's easy. I don't have a life.
No, it has nothing whatsoever to do with heaven. We just don't believe ours is the only world God has created and populated with life. Think outside our solar system. In all of the universe, with millions of light years separating the thousands of galaxies there are out there. We believe that God's creative powers are so much more vast than what humanity has so far been able to observe.
Actually, I'm not sure I understand your question. I'm just going to try to elaborate a little on what I said before and see if that clears up the confusion. If it doesn't, let me know.
We believe that Jesus Christ existed as from the time the Bible describes as "the beginning." He was with His Father (God) at that time, and He himself was also God. Leaving Mary out of it completely during His pre-mortal existance, He was still God's son. He was, however, a spirit at that time. He had no physical body. It was in His spirit state that He created our universe under His Father's direction. It was in His spirit state that He was chosen to become "the Lamb" by whom humanity would be redeemed. When He was born to Mary, He took upon Himself a physical body. Mary was His mortal mother. He was fathered (i.e. given mortal life) in some miraculous way by God the Father.
The large number of verses? To the best of my knowledge, there is only one -- the one you quoted. The Greek word that was translated as "spirit" is "pneuma." It was translated in John 4:24 as "spirit," but elsewhere in the scriptures as "life." So, it would be equally correct to say, "God is life." We believe that God is the source of all life. In other words, He is not some kind of a non-living entity without feelings or emotions or any of the other qualities that we think of as denoting life. He is real and alive. That is what we believe is meant by "God is spirit." The fact that He is spirit does not, however, preclude Him from having other characteristics. We believe that He is a spirit clothed in a perfect, immortal, incorrupible body. We believe that He looks essentially like His Son, Jesus Christ, of whom the scriptures say was "the express image of His [Father's] person."
Regarding God's omnipresence:
Imagine a sheet of paper that had sixteen tiny holes in it. How many needles would be needed to simultaneously fit through all sixteen separate holes? If you said, “sixteen,” you are thinking in terms of “ontological omnipresence.” Fold the paper in such a way that the needle can be inserted through all sixteen holes at once. This represents “functional omnipresence.” God’s power can extend everywhere throughout the universe simultaneously, even though He is physically in heaven. Even though He occupies physical space, He is functionally omnipresent because He has the power to do so.
Now, with respect to the Holy Ghost, as His name implies, He is a person comprised solely of spirit, unlike the Father and the Son. He is the means by which we communicate with God, our Father in Heaven. The scriptures say that we must worship God in spirit and in truth. Since we are physical beings, the only way we can worship Him, communicate with Him or learn from Him is Spirit to spirit. The Holy Spirit testifies of truth. This is the means by which Peter came to realize that Jesus was, in fact, the Christ, Son of God. The Holy Spirit is also the Comforter Jesus promised to send in His absence. Unlike the Father and the Son, both of whom are functionally omnipresent, the Holy Spirit is ontologically omnipresent. It is because of this characteristic, unique to Him alone, that He can simultaneously dwell in our hearts and throughout the universe. In other words, God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ are physical beings who (though the Holy Ghost) function as if they were present everywhere at once, even though they are technically not.
Also, if you stop to think about it, having a physical body in no way limited Jesus during His mortal ministry. In fact, to control the elements, He had only to say, "Peace. Be still." There He was in a fishing boat, commanding the wind to stop blowing and the rain to stop falling. His power was able to extend everywhere, even to places where He was not physically present. If having a body did not limit Him, why would it limit His Father?
Last edited: