Prayer in Public Schools

Skwim · Nov 9, 2010

Revoltingest said:
I suppose it depends upon how you define "fail". Over in Detroit, gov't run public education has been in da terlit for 50 years, with no solution in sight.

From what I've seen Detroit as a whole is pretty much in da terlit.

Teacher unions quash attempts to publicly fund private competition. School officials & City Council are more interested in feathering their own nests.
Voters don't rock this boat. Structurally, it seems permanently stable in a condition where kids can grow up capable of discussing evolution with their
robbery victims & drug customers.

That's unfortunate; however, as you know, a single swallow does not a summer make. Compulsory education is as much a necessity as are taxes. And so far it's a lot better than the alternative.

Wannabe Yogi · Nov 9, 2010

Revoltingest said:
Structurally, it seems permanently stable in a condition where kids can grow up capable of discussing evolution with their
robbery victims & drug customers.

Look on the bright side, at least they are teaching Microeconomics.

Wannabe Yogi · Nov 9, 2010

Revoltingest said:
I suppose it depends upon how you define "fail". Over in Detroit, gov't run public education has been in da terlit for 50 years, with no solution in sight.
Teacher unions quash attempts to publicly fund private competition. School officials & City Council are more interested in feathering their own nests.
Voters don't rock this boat. Structurally, it seems permanently stable in a condition where kids can grow up capable of discussing evolution with their
robbery victims & drug customers.

You could also make an argument that many of the states in the South (right to work states) that score lowest on the standardizes tests have the weakest teacher unions.

School Districts with no or weak teacher Unions don't fire bad teachers at a higher rate. Why ? because teaching is a very hard job and the pay is not that great. We do not have huge lines of people wanting to become teachers when economic times are good.

Revoltingest · Nov 9, 2010

Wannabe Yogi said:
You could also make an argument that many of the states in the South that score lowest on the standardizes tests have the weakest teacher unions.

Red herring.

School Districts with no or weak teacher Unions don't fire bad teachers at a higher rate. Why ? because teaching is a very hard job and the pay is not that great. We do not have huge lines of people wanting to become teachers when economic times are good.

One thing matters - good schools. Too many interests want to keep things as they are,
& they're always ready with reasons why things should continue the way they are.

Wannabe Yogi · Nov 9, 2010

Revoltingest said:
Red herring.

So are Charter schools that seem to be improving test scores at a lower rate then the public schools.

Revoltingest said:
One thing matters - good schools. Too many interests want to keep things as they
are, & they're always ready with reasons why things should continue the way they are.

I agree !

This is the problem. Kids who are from good homes tend to do well in school. Kids from dysfunctional homes tend to do very poorly.

Most school boards are made up of people from the local chamber of commerce rather then education professionals. I just feel that it is unfair to blame all the problems on teacher unions. (not that you are doing this but many are) Who are the teacher unions-TEACHERS- who join together in collective bargaining.

Revoltingest · Nov 9, 2010

Wannabe Yogi said:
So are Charter schools that seem to be improving test scores at a lower rate then the public schools.

Irrelevant - I'm not arguing that.
Charter schools at least have to compete with other schools.
Serve your customers poorly & you die. Public schools need, but lack that feedback.

This is the problem. Kids who are from good homes tend to do well in school. Kids from dysfunctional homes do very poorly.
Most school boards are made up of people from the local chamber of commerce rather then education professionals. I just feel that it is unfair to blame all the problems on teacher unions. (not that you are doing this but many are) Who are the teacher unions-TEACHERS- who join together in collective bargaining.

I simply detest impediments to improvement.

Danmac · Nov 9, 2010

Wannabe Yogi said:
Todays kids are doing better then the ones who came along after in 1970's.
Rates of Violence are down and things are getting better.

The good old days where not as great as some would have us believe.

That is laughable

Danmac · Nov 9, 2010

linwood said:
Exactly what moral commandments were removed?
My kids schools still teach that lying,cheating,stealing, and murder are unacceptable.
The rest of the commandments were nothing more than idolatry for an insecure deity.
Not to mention that they discriminated against those who held that deity as false.

I guess it would depend on ones own standards as to how things are going. Liberal progressives would agree with you, but conservatives would not.

linwood · Nov 9, 2010

Danmac said:
I guess it would depend on ones own standards as to how things are going. Liberal progressives would agree with you, but conservatives would not.

But the liberal progressives would have evidenced data to support their point of view while conservatives would have what they usually have, lies, spin, and propaganda.

Did you not see the link I posted which showed the decrease in school violence in the past 15 years?

Youth Violence Project

Do facts have no meaning to you?

I have given you statistics that clearly show a serious decrease in school violence and yet you continue to support the false position that school violence is on the increase.

On what do you base such a demonstrably incorrect belief?

Wannabe Yogi · Nov 9, 2010

Revoltingest said:
Irrelevant - I'm not arguing that.
Charter schools at least have to compete with other schools.
Serve your customers poorly & you die. Public schools need, but lack that feedback.

Charter schools get less feedback then public schools they are less accountable under no child left behind. They are not forced to improve in the same way public schools are.

The problems with private schools getting state funds. They can kick out children that behave badly and kids who don't score high on standardize tests. They are not weighted down by things like special education that are very expensive.

School Vouchers will create a two tier educational system, kids with special needs, parents who don't care, slow kids will all be warehoused on one level. The high achieving kids with parents that care will all be in the better schools. This are not the kids who need help anyway.

Revoltingest said:
I simply detest impediments to improvement.

So do I, and I truly believe that Vouchers will hurt children who come from bad families or have special needs.

Revoltingest · Nov 9, 2010

Skwim said:
From what I've seen Detroit as a whole is pretty much in da terlit.

True dat.

That's unfortunate; however, as you know, a single swallow does not a summer make. Compulsory education is as much a necessity as are taxes. And so far it's a lot better than the alternative.

I'm in favor of compulsory education....done well.

Revoltingest · Nov 9, 2010

Wannabe Yogi said:
Charter schools get less feedback then public schools they are less accountable under no child left behind. They are not forced to improve in the same way public schools are.

I disagree, but I'm not prepared to debate the issue.

The problems with private schools getting state funds. They can kick out children that behave badly and kids who don't score high on standardize tests. They are not weighted down by things like special education that are very expensive.
School Vouchers will create a two tier educational system, kids with special needs, parents who don't care, slow kids will all be warehoused on one level. The high achieving kids with parents that care will all be in the better schools.

Those are problems which should be addressed. Since doing the same thing over & over again has continually failed, it's time to do something different. Failing the kids is inexcusable.

Wannabe Yogi said:
Look on the bright side, at least they are teaching Microeconomics.

Actually, they learn that in an extra-curricular apprenticeship program. The private sector steps up when gov't fails, but I'd prefer to avoid this type of privatization.

Wannabe Yogi · Nov 9, 2010

Revoltingest said:
it's time to do something different. Failing the kids is inexcusable.

Well said.

Revoltingest said:
Actually, they learn that in an extra-curricular apprenticeship program. The private sector steps up when gov't fails, but I'd prefer to avoid this type of privatization.

:clap2:

Jake. · Nov 9, 2010

Wannabe Yogi said:
Todays kids are doing better then the ones who came along after in 1970's.
Rates of Violence are down and things are getting better.

The good old days where not as great as some would have us believe.

Not in England, the rates are high here still.

AxisMundi · Nov 9, 2010

seeker69 said:
I think this is a valid point. If you can object to "my tax dollars being used to teach religion" why can't a Christian, Jew, Muslim or whatever object to the use of their tax dollars being used to teach evolution. To me it points out the fault in a compuslory system.

Evolution is science, science is taught in public schools.

Christians who would complain can explain their relgiious views, supported by their church, to their children if they don't like it.

Of course, said parents could also get educated themselves on the subject, but the church wouldn't like that.

AxisMundi · Nov 9, 2010

Danmac said:
History has done our science for us. And those who fail to remember the past are condemned to repeat it. Fasten you seat belt.

Please provide specific examples.

AxisMundi · Nov 9, 2010

seeker69 said:
Yes, youre right a social welfare system operated by the state and paid for by taxation is socialism. And Im opposed to that system.

I think you are missing the overall picture in a narow political view.

Do you believe that people who don't drive and walk everywhere shouldn't be "forced" to pay for our roadway system?

When they walk to the grocery, they are indeed utilizing our roadway system.

Same with public school.

Everyone, regardless of if thy even have children, benefit from public schools.

That said, it is another system that needs to be fixed.

However, one doesn't fix a leaky roof by burning down the house.

Danmac · Nov 10, 2010

AxisMundi said:
Please provide specific examples.

What stats are you looking for and I will provide them?

Danmac · Nov 10, 2010

linwood said:
But the liberal progressives would have evidenced data to support their point of view while conservatives would have what they usually have, lies, spin, and propaganda.

Did you not see the link I posted which showed the decrease in school violence in the past 15 years?

Youth Violence Project

Do facts have no meaning to you?

I have given you statistics that clearly show a serious decrease in school violence and yet you continue to support the false position that school violence is on the increase.

On what do you base such a demonstrably incorrect belief?

Now why don't you find some stats on school pregnancies, teachers being assaulted, and drug use today as compared to 15 years ago. Also tell me what percentage of kids are expelled and have to go to alternate schools as compared to 15 years ago. I'll be waiting.

Magic Man · Nov 10, 2010

Danmac said:
Now why don't you find some stats on school pregnancies, teachers being assaulted, and drug use today as compared to 15 years ago.

Why? Do you have any reason that we should believe any of those things would possibly have to do with the lack of school-led prayer in schools?

Prayer in Public Schools

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