Prayer in Public Schools

AxisMundi · Nov 8, 2010

Zadok said:
Just wondering - how can someone study history without exposer to religion?

Also - why is touting a political preference of representatives of the state, teachers, school administrators, and other school employees protected free speach any more than touting a religious preference?

Zadok

1. History isn't exclusively religion.

Want to teach religion in school, make sure the systematic attempt to erase aboriginal cultures and religions committed by Christians, the various Inquasitions, Crusades, and witch burnings are included.

2. Politics shouldn't be in public schools in that manner either, IMO, ie teachers giving their preferences.

BTW, didn't read any of the guidelines, did you?

Zadok · Nov 8, 2010

AxisMundi said:
1. History isn't exclusively religion.

Want to teach religion in school, make sure the systematic attempt to erase aboriginal cultures and religions committed by Christians, the various Inquasitions, Crusades, and witch burnings are included.

2. Politics shouldn't be in public schools in that manner either, IMO, ie teachers giving their preferences.

BTW, didn't read any of the guidelines, did you?

Can you given me an example of something in history that is exclusive of religion?

Without religion or politics being taught in schools - other than math, what is left?

Zadok

Zadok · Nov 8, 2010

Autodidact said:
Well, I think a teacher cannot stand in front a classroom and lecture that God does not exist; that would be unconstitutional, in my view.

If this is the teacher's opinion - why should they not be able to inform students of their opinion?

Just so everyone knows - I believe the community should be able to hier and fire teachers for what-ever reason they want. I believe in majority rule. It may not be the best but it is better than everything else.

Zadok

AxisMundi · Nov 8, 2010

yourhopeboundheart said:
no, creation should not be outlawed... because it's the basis of new ideas and new products.
but i know, you probably meant creationism. and thinking that creationism should be outlawed means that you favor silencing differing opinions, and that's not scientific. teaching creationism in a science class might be kinda silly, but that doesn't mean that children in public schools shouldn't be exposed to differing viewpoints, considering how the scientific method celebrates multiple hypothesis.

Creationism is religious dogma, not a hypothesis.

yourhopeboundheart said:
fish dont die in floods, silly.

Yes, they can if the oxygen content of the water is diluted too much, the salinity level is thrown to far out of whack, or polutants (such as dead bodies) is introduced.

The biblical great flood would've seen each and every bit of marine life on the planet dead, just for those reasons I listed above.

yourhopeboundheart said:
children learn about a lot of mass murders in schools, and it's important for them to learn about these things because knowledge of their absurdity leads to a greater understanding of compassion and makes it less likely that they be repeated.

Last time I checked, Jeffery Dhalmer wasn't part of any school cirriculum.

yourhopeboundheart said:
if you have american citizens in public schools then it is unacceptable to keep religion out of public school. group prayers do not violate anyone's rights to secular education, provided they are not officiated by the school and required by the administration. a bunch of kids that want to pray for their school before the bell rings does not stomp on the constitution, but keeping them from doing so does. provided a prayer is not mandatory for all students in a classroom setting then it does not violate the constitution and therefore is none of your business. you, in your own time, can educate your kids on the behaviors of others. that doesn't mean that you can abuse the rights of students in order to keep your children away from their practices.

See the link to the USDOE guidlines I posted.

AxisMundi · Nov 8, 2010

Zadok said:
Can you given me an example of something in history that is exclusive of religion?

Without religion or politics being taught in schools - other than math, what is left?

Zadok

1. both World Wars, for starters.

2. Are you being purposely obtuse?

Autodidact · Nov 8, 2010

Muffled said:
I have no problem with any religius activity in school as long as it isn't government or teacher mandated.

I wish I could have kept my grandkinds from the atheistic approach to the origin of the species. I didn't have the money to send them to christian school.

It's a red herring, but completely wrong. Evolution is no more atheist than any other scientific theory.

Skwim · Nov 8, 2010

Zadok said:
Just wondering - how can someone study history without exposer to religion?

It would be difficult, but what's your point? No one says that teaching the role religion played in history is verboten.

Also - why is touting a political preference of representatives of the state, teachers, school administrators, and other school employees protected free speach any more than touting a religious preference?

Well, if I read you correctly (not sure that I do) touting a political preference of representatives of the state is not allowed. Teachers are not allowed to promote any political issue or political candidate.

no-body · Nov 8, 2010

Zadok said:
You have a strange concept of liberty. Laws and rules that do not support Liberty are what brings about things like fascism.

Zadok

"Liberty" is just a word. In the hands of a fascist it could be defined in such a way that "liberty" is really slavery and the rules are just used to keep people in line under the guise of "protecting" us.

What's important is constantly striving for objectivity and making sure the government and society is always questioned no matter what it does.

Revoltingest · Nov 8, 2010

Autodidact said:
Well, I think a teacher cannot stand in front a classroom and lecture that God does not exist; that would be unconstitutional, in my view.

It could be constitutionally legal, since atheism technically isn't a religion.
But it would be technically stupid to do so.

Magic Man · Nov 8, 2010

Zadok said:
If this is the teacher's opinion - why should they not be able to inform students of their opinion?

Informing students on your opinion and lecturing on a topic are two different things.

Just so everyone knows - I believe the community should be able to hier and fire teachers for what-ever reason they want. I believe in majority rule. It may not be the best but it is better than everything else.

Zadok

If it's better than everything else, how could it not be the best? Isn't that the very definition of "the best"?

Anyway, no, it's not better than everything else. Majority rules works for some things, but not everything. The community should not be able to hire and fire teachers at will. In general, having one person or a panel is the best way to make most decisions. Having a principal who is then in charge of hiring and firing teachers makes the most sense.

Autodidact · Nov 8, 2010

Zadok said:
If this is the teacher's opinion - why should they not be able to inform students of their opinion?

Because the constitution prohibits a public school from requiring or enforcing religion on pupils, including denial of religion.

Which is at it should be, IMO.

seeker69 · Nov 8, 2010

Muffled said:
I wish I could have kept my grandkinds from the atheistic approach to the origin of the species. I didn't have the money to send them to christian school.

I think this is a valid point. If you can object to "my tax dollars being used to teach religion" why can't a Christian, Jew, Muslim or whatever object to the use of their tax dollars being used to teach evolution. To me it points out the fault in a compuslory system.

Skwim · Nov 8, 2010

seeker69 said:
I think this is a valid point. If you can object to "my tax dollars being used to teach religion" why can't a Christian, Jew, Muslim or whatever object to the use of their tax dollars being used to teach evolution. To me it points out the fault in a compuslory system.

They can. it would be stupid, but they can.

jmvizanko · Nov 8, 2010

Kathryn said:
I don't see how it would hurt other students if a particular student was excused for three minutes of classtime, for that matter, and I don't see how that would harm you or anyone else, even if that particular student missed "an extra equation."

And for the last time I'll say it, I am talking only about the instance where this is done during class time. Which I know you already think shouldn't be done.

Kathryn said:
I also don't see how that would imply that everyone should be doing it.

If it is a scheduled part of class time, how so?

Kathryn said:
I also don't see how you can claim that kids don't understand the basics of the practice of their faith - obviously some kids do and some kids don't, and frankly, that's none of your business or mine. That is the business of each particular child and his or her parents, not the school's call, unless students are not able to grasp their lesson plan.

Well this is a separate debate, but I didn't say the basics of the practice of their faith. I was talking about understanding why they believe what they do. And I think it would be the rare 10 year old that "believes" the religion of their parents for a reason other than the old "because I say so."

Autodidact · Nov 8, 2010

seeker69 said:
I think this is a valid point. If you can object to "my tax dollars being used to teach religion" why can't a Christian, Jew, Muslim or whatever object to the use of their tax dollars being used to teach evolution. To me it points out the fault in a compuslory system.

Because evolution isn't religion. It's science. Do you think we shouldn't teach science?

seeker69 · Nov 8, 2010

Autodidact said:
Because evolution isn't religion. It's science. Do you think we shouldn't teach science?

the point is there are people who oppose teaching evolution...but they are expected to pay for teachers to teach evolution.

Skwim · Nov 8, 2010

seeker69 said:
the point is there are people who oppose teaching evolution...but they are expected to pay for teachers to teach evolution.

And . . . ? Are you really under the impression that education is a pick-and-chose, pay-as-you-decide sort of operation? If so, then you need a large reality pill. If not, then why are you bringing up the point?

Danmac · Nov 9, 2010

AxisMundi said:
Got some statistics, or other science, on that?

No?

Didn't think so.

History has done our science for us. And those who fail to remember the past are condemned to repeat it. Fasten you seat belt.

Danmac · Nov 9, 2010

I'ken Imagine said:
How do you mean?

The first day private that doesn't tuck his shirt is at fault because of ignorance. The second day private that doesn't tuck his shirt has an ignorant drill sergeant.

Danmac · Nov 9, 2010

no-body said:
and "liberty" with too many rules is fascism.

Interesting how your solution favors your religion and is tantamount to brainwashing.

I find it funny that someone such as yourself that backs a liberal socialist agenda, accuses others of fascism.

Prayer in Public Schools

E Pluribus Unum!!!

Zadok

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E Pluribus Unum!!!

E Pluribus Unum!!!

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