Man - 'Created in the image of God'

james2ko · Nov 5, 2010

Reptillian said:
The point I was trying to make was that all the references to God's body parts can be thought of as metaphorical

It is true the Bible uses symbols, anecdotes, metaphors and parables. Yet, Scripture also makes many literal statements. The book of Revelation is filled with metaphors and symbols of events that will take place in the near future. But God always explains what the metaphors mean. He does not leave His servants in the dark about themor leave them open to human interpretation.

For example, Revelation 17:1 describes a great whore that sits upon many waters. Throughout the rest of the chapter, God reveals who and what the great whore is, and, in verse 15, He reveals the meaning of the waters. This is the pattern throughout the Bible.

Would it make sense for God to hide His form and shape in a metaphor and then not explain what it means? Why would the great Creator of the universe reveal the meaning of metaphors and parables in every area except who and what He is, including His appearance?

Reptillian · Nov 5, 2010

james2ko said:
It is true the Bible uses symbols, anecdotes, metaphors and parables. Yet, Scripture also makes many literal statements. The book of Revelation is filled with metaphors and symbols of events that will take place in the near future. But God always explains what the metaphors mean. He does not leave His servants in the dark about them—or leave them open to human interpretation.

For example, Revelation 17:1 describes a “great whore that sits upon many waters.” Throughout the rest of the chapter, God reveals who and what the great whore is, and, in verse 15, He reveals the meaning of the “waters.” This is the pattern throughout the Bible.

Would it make sense for God to hide His form and shape in a metaphor and then not explain what it means? Why would the great Creator of the universe reveal the meaning of metaphors and parables in every area except who and what He is, including His appearance?

If God has a form, why is it said in Deuteronomy 4:15-18 "You saw no form of any kind the day the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves and idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, or like any creature that moves below."?

As for other body parts, think of Job 40:9 "Do you have an arm like God's, and can your voice thunder like his?" Do you think Job is being asked a question about God's literal physical arm and voice, or is it likely that these are metaphors for God's omnipresent reach and the power of his proclaimations?

james2ko · Nov 5, 2010

Reptillian said:
If God has a form, why is it said in Deuteronomy 4:15-18 "You saw no form of any kind the day the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves and idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, or like any creature that moves below."?

Read it carefully. Just because God is reminding them they "saw" no form at Horeb by no means implicates He has none. Many other verses plainly illustrate He does. The context clearly indicates God decided not to manifest Himself in physical form, due to their propensity of idol worship.

Reptillian said:
As for other body parts, think of Job 40:9 "Do you have an arm like God's, and can your voice thunder like his?" Do you think Job is being asked a question about God's literal physical arm and voice, or is it likely that these are metaphors for God's omnipresent reach and the power of his proclaimations?

I thought I agreed to the existence of biblical metaphors?

It is true the Bible uses symbols, anecdotes, metaphors and parables.

idea · Nov 5, 2010

Thorwald Johansen said:
In Genesis, it is written that God created man in His own image. The ministers that I have talked to, do not take this statement as meaning, "We look like God, or God looks like us". They interpret it as spiritual (ie. "holy", etc.). We know that we are created above all other living things on this earth. In the scriptures, angels appeared in similar form to humans. We know that Christ said, "If you see me, you see my father." If I just apply general logic, and look at the whole animal kingdom as well as man, and even call the young of animals 'sons/daughters', the young look the same as their 'parents' (ie. a newborn fish doesn't change into a turtle). If angels are 'sons of God', and we can become 'equal unto the angels', and angels look like man, then God must look like us????????? What are your thoughts?

Yes They look like us. God has hands, fingers, face, mouth, eyes, feet, a back, etc. etc. etc.

(Topical Guide | GGod, Body of—Corporeal Nature:Entry)
God, Body of—Corporeal Nature (see also Man, A Spirit Child of Heavenly Father; Man, Physical Creation of)
Gen. 1:27 (Moses 2:27) God created man in his own image
Gen. 5:1 God created man, in the likeness of God made he him
Gen. 9:6 in the image of God made he man
Gen. 18:33 Lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing
Gen. 32:30 I have seen God face to face
Ex. 24:10 they saw the God of Israel, there was under his feet
Ex. 31:18 (Deut. 9:10) written with the finger of God
Ex. 33:11 Lord spake unto Moses face to face
Ex. 33:23 thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen
Num. 12:8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth
Matt. 3:17 a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son
Matt. 4:4 every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God
Matt. 17:5 a voice out of the cloud
Luke 24:39 for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have
John 14:9 he that hath seen me hath seen the Father
Acts 7:56 the Son of man standing on the right hand of God
Rom. 8:29 predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son
2 Cor. 4:4 Christ, who is the image of God
Philip. 2:6 who, being in the form of God
Philip. 3:21 our vile body ... fashioned like unto his glorious body
Col. 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God
Heb. 1:3 the express image of his person
James 3:9 men which are made after the similitude of God
1 Jn. 3:2 when he shall appear, we shall be like him
Rev. 22:4 they shall see his face

PS... we have a Heavenly Father, and a Heavenly Mother,

(Old Testament | Genesis 1:26 - 27)
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: ... in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

not let "me" make them in "my" image, but "us" make them in "our" image, and the image is "male and female"...

Midnight Pete · Nov 5, 2010

The burning bush seen by Moses atop God's mountain was probably as close to His true form as any human being will ever see. It was nonsensical, a bush engulfed in fire yet unaffected by it. An illusion caused by the limits of human perception. A glamour. A symbol. It was the non-duality of God intruding into the duality of the physical universe. In other words, God is so utterly beyond us that we can't perceive His true form if indeed He has one. Can a God who is incorporeal have a form?

Midnight Pete · Nov 5, 2010

Jesus Christ is the image of the Invisible God. So if you've seen the Son, you seen the Father.

"...in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." (2 Corinthians 4:4).

ellenjanuary · Nov 5, 2010

Midnight Pete said:
The burning bush seen by Moses atop God's mountain was probably as close to His true form as any human being will ever see. It was nonsensical, a bush engulfed in fire yet unaffected by it. An illusion caused by the limits of human perception. A glamour. A symbol. It was the non-duality of God intruding into the duality of the physical universe. In other words, God is so utterly beyond us that we can't perceive His true form if indeed He has one. Can a God who is incorporeal have a form?

I disagree. "Burning bush; light; the eternal flame, with the living worm;" alla that stuff... at least two gods in the Bible. The "god of Abraham," and "helios (the sun, the fire in the sky, the thing for which no ancient explaination satisfied)." I mean, can't have no Gospel without getting rid of this "unexplained variable."

St Giordano Bruno · Nov 5, 2010

This is Xenophanes take on take on it back before 475 BC concerning anthropomorphic god's and so arguing against the conception of gods as fundamentally anthropomorphic:

But if cattle and horses and lions had hands
or could paint with their hands and create works such as men do,
horses like horses and cattle like cattle
also would depict the gods' shapes and make their bodies
of such a sort as the form they themselves have.
Ethiopians say that their gods are snubnosed and black.
Thracians that they are pale and red-haired

Reptillian · Nov 5, 2010

james2ko said:
Read it carefully. Just because God is reminding them they "saw" no form at Horeb by no means implicates He has none. Many other verses plainly illustrate He does. The context clearly indicates God decided not to manifest Himself in physical form, due to their propensity of idol worship.

I thought I agreed to the existence of biblical metaphors?

I think they're saying God has no form since they saw none in the fire.

What I'm saying is that like the verse from Job, I think all references to God's physical features are metaphors or can be attributed to figures of speech. All those verses can be interpreted in that way, and in fact they are by most Jewish people.

Midnight Pete said:
The burning bush seen by Moses atop God's mountain was probably as close to His true form as any human being will ever see. It was nonsensical, a bush engulfed in fire yet unaffected by it. An illusion caused by the limits of human perception. A glamour. A symbol. It was the non-duality of God intruding into the duality of the physical universe. In other words, God is so utterly beyond us that we can't perceive His true form if indeed He has one. Can a God who is incorporeal have a form?

I agree based on 1 John 4:12 "No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us."

So if nobody's ever seen God, we can throw out literal interpretations of those verses referencing his form right?

Reptillian · Nov 5, 2010

St Giordano Bruno said:
This is Xenophanes take on take on it back before 475 BC concerning anthropomorphic god's and so arguing against the conception of gods as fundamentally anthropomorphic:

If you've ever read Cicero's "The Nature of the Gods" he references that arguement when discussing the view of the gods as bodied beings concerned with their own pleasure and happiness. He also refutes the suggestion that the human form is perfect, so the gods would necessarily have that form. Its a pretty good read with implications for modern views of god.

Midnight Pete · Nov 5, 2010

ellenjanuary said:
I disagree. "Burning bush; light; the eternal flame, with the living worm;" alla that stuff... at least two gods in the Bible. The "god of Abraham," and "helios (the sun, the fire in the sky, the thing for which no ancient explaination satisfied)." I mean, can't have no Gospel without getting rid of this "unexplained variable."

I didn't get any of that.

What is the living worm?

ellenjanuary · Nov 5, 2010

Midnight Pete said:
I didn't get any of that.

What is the living worm?

About the only reference I pulled outta the Book that goes from Old to New concerning After Jesus referenced with "the flame shall not be quenched, but the worm shall live." (But I'm not a Biblical Scholar, I'm just a foo[AKA prophet according to the "god of Abraham"]" I guess everybody knows "hell" comes from Jews burning their trash; less known, it seems, is the "fact" that worms lived under the ash. OT prophets put two and two together, NT prophets came up with 4 - called it "eternal damnation." I call it a lack of reading comprehension (hell); ain't about after, it's about now.

james2ko · Nov 6, 2010

Reptillian said:
I think they're saying God has no form since they saw none in the fire.

This statement oozes uncertainty. This is usually an indication of a "private interpretation" which I'm sure you're aware is a no-no

(2 Pet 1:20)

What I'm saying is that like the verse from Job, I think all references to God's physical features are metaphors or can be attributed to figures of speech. .

In John 14:7, Jesus states, "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him." Then in vs 8 Philip asked, Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied. Notice Philip did not ask how can we know the Father. This statement was made towards the end of Jesus' ministry. Jesus had already made known to Philip and the rest of His disciples the Father's spiritual qualities now Phillip wanted Jesus to show him the Father's physical qualities.

Scholars agree, (see Clarke, Gill, Henry's commentary on this verse) Philip was making the same request Moses made in Ex 33:18. They both wanted physical, literal manifestations of God. So What was Jesus' answer to Philip's request?

"Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don't know who I am? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father! So why are you asking Me to show Him to you?" (John 14:9 NLT) Can it be any plainer?

Reptillian · Nov 6, 2010

james2ko said:
This statement oozes uncertainty. This is usually an indication of a "private interpretation" which I'm sure you're aware is a no-no (2 Pet 1:20)

Whos to say that my interpretation isn't being guided by the Holy Spirit? Besides, couldn't the Holy Spirit allow multiple interpretations of the same verse for different individuals and groups depending on their needs?

james2ko said:
In John 14:7, Jesus states, "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him." Then in vs 8 Philip asked, Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied. Notice Philip did not ask how can we know the Father. This statement was made towards the end of Jesus' ministry. Jesus had already made known to Philip and the rest of His disciples the Father's spiritual qualities now Phillip wanted Jesus to show him the Father's physical qualities.

Scholars agree, (see Clarke, Gill, Henry's commentary on this verse) Philip was making the same request Moses made in Ex 33:18. They both wanted physical, literal manifestations of God. So What was Jesus' answer to Philip's request?

"Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don't know who I am? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father! So why are you asking Me to show Him to you?" (John 14:9 NLT) Can it be any plainer?

Again just a reference to the trinity...its saying the Father has human form only through the person of Jesus.

So you interpret the verses at the end of Exodus 33 to indicate that God is just a giant human who was strolling by Moses?

I wonder how believers reconcile the claim that Jesus is God in the flesh with God's statement in Exodus that "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."

idea · Nov 6, 2010

Reptillian said:
So you interpret the verses at the end of Exodus 33 to indicate that God is just a giant human who was strolling by Moses?

where did "giant" come from? God is not a giant, He is a flesh and bone person that has the same attributes as us.

I wonder how believers reconcile the claim that Jesus is God in the flesh with God's statement in Exodus that "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."

Moses 1:11 But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for my dnatural eyes could not have ebeheld; for I should have fwithered and died in his presence; but his hglory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him.

Those who are transfigured are able to see Him

(Topical Guide | G God, Privilege of Seeing:Entry) s. = see/seen
God, Privilege of Seeing (see also God, Manifestations of; God, Presence of; Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ, Appearances, Antemortal)
Gen. 32:30 I have s. God face to face
Ex. 3:6 Moses ... was afraid to look upon God
Ex. 19:11 Lord will come down in the sight of all the people
Ex. 19:21 charge the people, lest they break through unto the Lord to gaze
Ex. 24:11 nobles of the children of Israel ... saw God
Ex. 33:11 Lord spake unto Moses face to face
Ex. 33:20 there shall no man s. me, and live
Num. 12:8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth
Deut. 34:10 Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face
Judg. 13:22 We shall surely die, because we have s. God
1 Kgs. 11:9 Lord ... had appeared unto him twice
Job 19:26 (Moses 5:10) in my flesh shall I s. God
Isa. 6:5 mine eyes have s. ... the Lord
Matt. 5:8 (3 Ne. 12:8) blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall s. God
Matt. 11:27 Father ... to whomsoever the Son will reveal him
John 1:18 (6:46; D&C 67:11) No man hath s. God at any time
John 5:37 Ye have neither heard his voice ... nor s. his shape
John 14:18 not leave you comfortless: I will come to you
John 14:21 I will love him, and will manifest myself to him
Acts 7:56 I s. ... the Son of man standing on the right hand
Heb. 12:14 holiness, without which no man shall s. the Lord
1 Jn. 3:2 we shall be like him, for we shall s. him as he is
Rev. 1:17 when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead
Rev. 22:4 they shall s. his face

InvestigateTruth · Nov 6, 2010

idea said:
where did "giant" come from? God is not a giant, He is a flesh and bone person that has the same attributes as us.

Moses1:11 But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for my dnatural eyes could not have ebeheld; for I should have fwithered and died in his presence; but his hglory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him.

Those who are transfigured are able to see Him

Generally speaking, there are 2 types of realities. Physical and Non-physical.

the physical realities are those that can be understood through our 5 senses, seeing, hearing,...
the non-physical realities are those which we do not understand using the 5 senses. But we understand using our "inner sight"
for example, 'love', 'patience', 'generosity' are spiritual realities. we understand them through our inner ability. we cannot see it physically, or touch or smell or hear or taste these in a physical sense.
That's what was meant by "spiritual Eye". meaning perception through inner sight.

james2ko · Nov 6, 2010

Reptillian said:
Whos to say that my interpretation isn't being guided by the Holy Spirit?

The bible interprets itself. All of the verses, taken in context, discussing the image of God are clear. You are creating your own interpretation based on preconceived notions and beliefs--and not scripture. Therefore, it cannot be inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Besides, couldn't the Holy Spirit allow multiple interpretations of the same verse for different individuals and groups depending on their needs?

This is totally contrary to scripture (1 Co 11:18-19; 1 Cor 1:10)!! This is the faulty reasoning which explains why we have over 2,000 Christian denominations all with different twists and turns of confusing doctrines (1 Cor 14:33)! While the bible describes the church as being one body united in doctrines and beliefs (Eph 4:4-6).

Again just a reference to the trinity...its saying the Father has human form only through the person of Jesus.

Trinity??? All throughout John 14:7-9, Christ is referring to Himself and the Father. How in the world do you get three beings out of those verses???

So you interpret the verses at the end of Exodus 33 to indicate that God is just a giant human who was strolling by Moses?

I love your sense of humor

I wonder how believers reconcile the claim that Jesus is God in the flesh with God's statement in Exodus that "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."

Christ gave up His divine privileges or emptied Himself as the glorified Son of God and was born a human. He was simply the Son of God in human form but not in his full glory. He could not appear in His full glory because, according to Exo 33:20, it would have killed every one who looked at His face.

Like Phillip, Moses asked to see a physical manifestation of God as a Spirit in His glory, as evidenced by Exo 33:18. which God denied (vs20). But God did allow Moses to see His back! This completely confirms the premise that God has a spiritual form and shape akin to our physical human image!!

Reptillian · Nov 6, 2010

idea said:
where did "giant" come from? God is not a giant, He is a flesh and bone person that has the same attributes as us.

Exodus 33:22 "When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by." Sounds like God's a giant to me if I were to interpret that verse literally.

Reptillian · Nov 6, 2010

InvestigateTruth said:
Generally speaking, there are 2 types of realities. Physical and Non-physical.

the physical realities are those that can be understood through our 5 senses, seeing, hearing,...
the non-physical realities are those which we do not understand using the 5 senses. But we understand using our "inner sight"
for example, 'love', 'patience', 'generosity' are spiritual realities. we understand them through our inner ability. we cannot see it physically, or touch or smell or hear or taste these in a physical sense.
That's what was meant by "spiritual Eye". meaning perception through inner sight.

Seems like the two realities you describe are in some ways like the philosophical difference between rationalism and empiricism. What is the difference between your spiritual eye and reason?

Reptillian · Nov 6, 2010

james2ko said:
The bible interprets itself. All of the verses, taken in context, discussing the image of God are clear. You are creating your own interpretation based on preconceived notions and beliefs--and not scripture. Therefore, it cannot be inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Are you sure? The Holy Spirit is greater than scripture as scripture is a product of its influence.

james2ko said:
This is totally contrary to scripture (1 Co 11:18-19; 1 Cor 1:10)!! This is the faulty reasoning which explains why we have over 2,000 Christian denominations all with different twists and turns of confusing doctrines (1 Cor 14:33)! While the bible describes the church as being one body united in doctrines and beliefs (Eph 4:4-6).

I actually agree with your point here.

james2ko said:
Trinity??? All throughout John 14:7-9, Christ is referring to Himself and the Father. How in the world do you get three beings out of those verses???

Sorry I just assumed you were a trinitarian and was framing my response in that context.

james2ko said:
Christ gave up His divine privileges or emptied Himself as the glorified Son of God and was born a human. He was simply the Son of God in human form but not in his full glory. He could not appear in His full glory because, according to Exo 33:20, it would have killed every one who looked at His face.

Thats an interesting way of looking at it.

james2ko said:
Like Phillip, Moses asked to see a physical manifestation of God as a Spirit in His glory, as evidenced by Exo 33:18. which God denied (vs20). But God did allow Moses to see His back! This completely confirms the premise that God has a spiritual form and shape akin to our physical human image!!

Back could be taken in a lot of ways...doesn't necessarily mean a human back. (I agree that the ancient biblical writers probably thought of God as a physical human being and that their concept is reflected in this verse but I'm just trying to be difficult at this point)

Man - 'Created in the image of God'

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