Almost Every Christian Going To Hell According To Bible

smokydot · Nov 3, 2010

tumbleweed41 said:
Thank you.
So although the OP suggests that because Christians sin, they are all going to Hell, the premise is incorrect since Christian theology holds that "all have sinned", but can be "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus".

I misspoke when I agreed, in post #18, that rejection of Jesus Christ was necessarily rejection of God and that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was necessarily rejection of Jesus Christ and God.

Post #18 has been edited and corrected on this point.

smokydot · Nov 3, 2010

Pegg said:
the greek word for spirit used in this verse is pneu′ma, and it is neuter.
The verse is correctly translated as 'IT' rather then him or her. This is why holy spirit should not be viewed as a person...its not a person. Its Gods power, his active force, his energy.

The Comforter is not an "it," but is another comforter, like Jesus was a comforter, who was not an "it."
That's the distortion of unbelief.

smokydot · Nov 3, 2010

A Thousand Suns said:
You didn't read the complete post on what i intended to say 'heavy sigh'
I was trying to tell that , Jesus didn't fulfilled the law.
I wasn't proving any prophecy from Nt

<deep sigh>

Jesus fulfilled the Levitical law of the priesthood, sacrifices, feasts, cleansings, purifications. . .by becoming all of them for those who believe in him.

He abolished the Old Covenant, mediated by Moses, and mediated a New Covenant in his blood (Lk 22:20).

ChristineES · Nov 3, 2010

Now according to the Bible almost every Christian is going to Hell

I have found that it is a lot easier to condemn others than to condemn oneself. But if a person condemns another person, he or she may as well condemn themselves. Jesus told His followers as much.

Pegg · Nov 3, 2010

smokydot said:
The Comforter is not an "it," but is another comforter, like Jesus was a comforter, who was not an "it."
That's the distortion of unbelief.

it is rightly translated 'it' in some places because John uses neuter pronouns
He only uses masculine gender pronouns when he personalizes the spirit such as when he calls it a 'helper'

This is an acknowledged fact. There is a footnote on John 14:17 in the 1970 Roman Catholic Bible translation called “The New American Bible” it says: “The Greek word for ‘Spirit’ is neuter, and while [in this translation] we use personal pronouns in English (‘he,’ ‘his,’ ‘him&#8217, most Greek MSS [manuscripts] employ ‘it.’”

So in sticking closer to the original manuscript, 'it' is rightly used in certain verses.

smokydot · Nov 3, 2010

Pegg said:
it is rightly translated 'it' in some places because John uses neuter pronouns.
He only uses masculine gender pronouns when he personalizes the spirit such as when he calls it a 'helper'

John personalizes the Spirit because he is a person. John would not personalize a non-person.
Helper, comforter, advocate are all characgteristics of the divine person who is the Holy Spirit.

This is an acknowledged fact. There is a footnote on John 14:17 in the 1970 Roman Catholic Bible translation called The New American Bible it says: The Greek word for Spirit is neuter, and while [in this translation] we use personal pronouns in English (he, his, him), most Greek MSS [manuscripts] employ it.
So in sticking closer to the original manuscript, 'it' is rightly used in certain verses.

True, but its use does not denote the Holy Spirit himself as neuter.

Pegg · Nov 3, 2010

smokydot said:
John personalizes the Spirit because he is a person. John would not personalize a non-person.

well in fact many things are personified in scripture...wisdom for instance is spoken of as having children.

If the holy spirit was actually a person, then why does John use a neuter pronoun when talking about it? A neuter pronoun is neither masculine (he, him, his) or feminine (she, her, hers). It's genderless and is used for inanimate objects.

John uses neuter pronouns in discussing the spirit far more then when he personifies it. But Jesus or God is never, not once, given a neuter pronoun...because they are real persons...unlike the spirit which is not a person and can be given the neuter pronoun.

smokydot · Nov 4, 2010

Pegg said:
well in fact many things are personified in scripture...wisdom for instance is spoken of as having children.
If the holy spirit was actually a person, then why does John use a neuter pronoun when talking about it? A neuter pronoun is neither masculine (he, him, his) or feminine (she, her, hers). It's genderless and is used for inanimate objects.
John uses neuter pronouns in discussing the spirit far more then when he personifies it. But Jesus or God is never, not once, given a neuter pronoun...because they are real persons...unlike the spirit which is not a person and can be given the neuter pronoun.

Please give the verses where John uses the neuter pronoun and where John uses the masculine personal pronoun to refer to the Holy Spirit.

Pegg · Nov 4, 2010

smokydot said:
Please give the verses where John uses the neuter pronoun and where John uses the masculine personal pronoun to refer to the Holy Spirit.

Ok, here is a small selection

John 14:16-17 "and I will request the Father and he will give YOU another helper (masculine pronoun)to be with YOU forever, 17 the spirit (pneu′ma, neuter) of the truth, which the world cannot receive, because it (Gr., au‧to′, neuter) neither beholds it nor knows it. YOU know it, because it remains with YOU and is in YOU

John 14:26 "But the helper (ho pa‧ra′kle‧tos, masculine), the holy spirit (pneu′ma, neuter), which the Father (masculine) will send in my name, that one (masculine)will teach YOU all things and bring back to YOUR minds all the things I told YOU"

John 15:26 "When the helper (ho pa‧ra′kle‧tos, masculine) arrives that I will send YOU from the Father (masculine) , the spirit of the truth, which proceeds from the Father (masculine) , that one (masculine) will bear witness about me

John 16:7 Nevertheless, I am telling YOU the truth, It is for YOUR benefit I am going away. For if I do not go away, the helper (ho pa‧ra′kle‧tos, masculine) will by no means come to YOU; but if I do go my way, I will send him (masculine)to YOU

Matthew also understood that the holy spirit was not a person because he gave it a neuter gender when relating Jesus parting words about making disciples and baptizing them.
Matthew 28:19 'Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father (masculine) and of the Son (masculine) and of the holy spirit (neuter)

Luke also used neuter pronouns when writing about the spirit
Acts 2:33 "Therefore because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit (pneu′ma, neuter) from the Father (masculine) , he has poured out this (neuter) which YOU see and hear.

Acts 6:3 So, brothers, search out for yourselves seven certified men from among YOU, full of spirit (pneu′ma, neuter) and wisdom (neuter)

And Paul also used neuter pronouns when writing about holy spirit
Romans 9:1 "I am telling the truth in Christ (masculine); I am not lying, since my conscience bears witness with me in holy spirit (pneu′ma, neuter)

Romans 15:13 May the God who gives hope fill YOU with all joy and peace by YOUR believing, that YOU may abound in hope with power of holy spirit (neuter)

1 Corinthians 12:3 "Therefore I would have YOU know that nobody when speaking by God’s spirit (neuter)says: “Jesus is accursed!” and nobody can say: “Jesus is Lord!” except by holy spirit (neuter)

Hebrews 2:4 while God joined in bearing witness with signs as well as portents and various powerful works and with distributions of holy spirit (neuter) according to his will?

Peter also used neuter pronouns
2 Peter 1:21 For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit (neuter)

And Jude
Jude 20 "But YOU, beloved ones, by building up yourselves on YOUR most holy faith, and praying with holy spirit (neuter)

I'll leave you with one more verse which groups holy spirit in amongst a persons 'qualities'. It not likely that such expressions would be made if the holy spirit were a divine person.

2 Cor 6:4 "but in every way we recommend ourselves as God’s ministers, by the endurance of much, by tribulations, by cases of need, by difficulties, 5 by beatings, by prisons, by disorders, by labors, by sleepless nights, by times without food, 6 by purity, by knowledge, by long-suffering, by kindness, by holy spirit (neuter), by love free from hypocrisy, 7 by truthful speech, by God’s power..."

While some verses give it a gender, the far majority do not. This is simply because things are personified in scripture. eg Luke 7:35 "All the same, wisdom is proved righteous by all its children.”
Romans 5:14 Nevertheless, death ruled as king from Adam down to Moses
Romans 5:21 To what end? That, just as sin ruled as king with death, likewise also undeserved kindness might rule as king
Romans 7:11 For sin...seduced me and killed me through it

smokydot · Nov 4, 2010

Pegg said:
Ok, here is a small selection
John 14:16-17 "and I will request the Father and he will give YOU another helper (masculine pronoun)to be with YOU forever, 17 the spirit (pneu′ma, neuter) of the truth, which the world cannot receive, because it (Gr., au‧to′, neuter) neither beholds it nor knows it. YOU know it, because it remains with YOU and is in YOU
John 14:26 "But the helper (ho pa‧ra′kle‧tos, masculine), the holy spirit (pneu′ma, neuter), which the Father (masculine) will send in my name, that one (masculine)will teach YOU all things and bring back to YOUR minds all the things I told YOU"
John 15:26 "When the helper (ho pa‧ra′kle‧tos, masculine) arrives that I will send YOU from the Father (masculine) , the spirit of the truth, which proceeds from the Father (masculine) , that one (masculine) will bear witness about me
John 16:7 Nevertheless, I am telling YOU the truth, It is for YOUR benefit I am going away. For if I do not go away, the helper (ho pa‧ra′kle‧tos, masculine) will by no means come to YOU; but if I do go my way, I will send him (masculine)to YOU
Matthew also understood that the holy spirit was not a person because he gave it a neuter gender when relating Jesus parting words about making disciples and baptizing them.
Matthew 28:19 'Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father (masculine) and of the Son (masculine) and of the holy spirit (neuter)
Luke also used neuter pronouns when writing about the spirit
Acts 2:33 "Therefore because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit (pneu′ma, neuter) from the Father (masculine) , he has poured out this (neuter) which YOU see and hear.
Acts 6:3 So, brothers, search out for yourselves seven certified men from among YOU, full of spirit (pneu′ma, neuter) and wisdom (neuter)
And Paul also used neuter pronouns when writing about holy spirit
Romans 9:1 "I am telling the truth in Christ (masculine); I am not lying, since my conscience bears witness with me in holy spirit (pneu′ma, neuter)
Romans 15:13 May the God who gives hope fill YOU with all joy and peace by YOUR believing, that YOU may abound in hope with power of holy spirit (neuter)
1 Corinthians 12:3 "Therefore I would have YOU know that nobody when speaking by God’s spirit (neuter)says: “Jesus is accursed!” and nobody can say: “Jesus is Lord!” except by holy spirit (neuter)
Hebrews 2:4 while God joined in bearing witness with signs as well as portents and various powerful works and with distributions of holy spirit (neuter) according to his will?
Peter also used neuter pronouns
2 Peter 1:21 For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit (neuter)
And Jude
Jude 20 "But YOU, beloved ones, by building up yourselves on YOUR most holy faith, and praying with holy spirit (neuter)

I'll leave you with one more verse which groups holy spirit in amongst a persons 'qualities'. It not likely that such expressions would be made if the holy spirit were a divine person.
2 Cor 6:4 "but in every way we recommend ourselves as God’s ministers, by the endurance of much, by tribulations, by cases of need, by difficulties, 5 by beatings, by prisons, by disorders, by labors, by sleepless nights, by times without food, 6 by purity, by knowledge, by long-suffering, by kindness, by holy spirit (neuter), by love free from hypocrisy, 7 by truthful speech, by God’s power..."
While some verses give it a gender, the far majority do not. This is simply because things are personified in scripture. eg Luke 7:35 "All the same, wisdom is proved righteous by all its children.”
Romans 5:14 Nevertheless, death ruled as king from Adam down to Moses
Romans 5:21 To what end? That, just as sin ruled as king with death, likewise also undeserved kindness might rule as king
Romans 7:11 For sin...seduced me and killed me through it

Thanks so much, Pegg, for the Scriptures.

But "Spirit" is neuter just as "school principal" is neuter.
That doesn't mean the school principal is not a "he".

"Father" and "Son" are not neuter like "mother" is not neuter.
They are not neuter because the very words themselves indicate gender.

Using the personal pronoun "he" to refer to the Holy Spirit is not about "personifying,"
anymore than using the personal pronoun "he" to refer to the school principal is about "personifying."

Using the personal pronoun is about referring to a person, both in the case of the Holy Spirit and in the case of the school principal.

The Holy Spirit is referrred to as "he" because the Holy Spirit is a person, just as the school principal is referred to as "he" because he is a person.

I have to say, dear Pegg, this is the strangest methodolgy and exegesis. It's such a warping of the meaning of the texts.

It's like heading straight for the goal (truth), and then unexpectedly veering off at a 60-degree angle shortly before you get there.
What you've reached is not the goal (truth), but a 60-degree diversion from it.
It's very strange.

Pegg · Nov 4, 2010

smokydot said:
I have to say, dear Pegg, this is the strangest methodolgy and exegesis. It's such a warping of the meaning of the texts.

It's like heading straight for the goal (truth), and then unexpectedly veering off at a 60-degree angle shortly before you get there.
What you've reached is not the goal (truth), but a 60-degree diversion from it.
It's very strange.

of course its strange...when you've been taught that the holy spirit is a person all your life its going to sound strange to hear someone say its not a person.

Of course its your prerogative what you believe and you certainly shouldnt just take my word for it.
Much better for you to hear it from those who teach that the holy spirit is a person then from those who dont. You should think about why those who teach that the holy spirit is a person also acknowledge the fact that the scriptures dont present it as such.

I gave you the reference from a roman catholic source before:

Also ask why the expression “holy spirit” appears without the definite article in such verses as Acts 6:3, 5; Rom. 9:1; 1 Cor. 12:3; Heb. 2:4; 6:4; 2 Pet. 1:21; Jude 20
A definite article is used to identify a specific personality...ie, 'The God' as opposed to simply 'a God' OR 'The Principle' as opposed to simply 'a Principle'

Our view is that it is all evidence that holy spirit is not a person but Gods power. He can send it out to accomplish his purpose, he can use it to teach, he can give it to people to empower them to perform miracles as he did with the apostles, he can give it to people to comfort, encourage and strengthen them...he even used it in the creation of the earth. This is why people can be baptized in it, and they can be filled with it.

dust1n · Nov 4, 2010

A Thousand Suns said:
In Western countries(Christian Majority)----Adultery is common

Now according to the Bible almost every Christian is going to Hell

New-Testament

Matthew 19:9 "I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Mark 10:11 "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her."

Mark 10:12 "And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."

Luke 16:18 "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery."

Old-Testament

Deuteronomy 22:22 "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die."

Leviticus 20:10 "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death."

Proverbs 6:32 "But a man who commits adultery lacks judgment; whoever does so destroys himself."

Also point to be noted according Jesus(pbuh) the laws of Old-Testament are still valid and are applicable upon Christians

Matthew 5:17-19 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Now My point ,Since adultery is clearly prohibited in the Bible, and since most Western Christians today are divorced and are either living with their boyfriends/girlfriends or married to other people, wouldn't that cause for them to be thrown in Hell? After all, most Western Christians according to the Bible are committing adultery ,and according to Ot "both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death."

You seem to be missing a very vital part of Christianity, that in which everyone single person sins and is forgiven only by accepting Jesus Christ as their lord and savior. That's kinda of the point of the 3-days-on-the-cross-scenario.

A Thousand Suns · Nov 5, 2010

Pegg said:
put that aside because i wasnt accusing you of ignoring Gods prophets.
I want to know your opinion...which is the worse sin.... to commit adultery or to ignore a prophet?

Rejecting a Prophet would be rejecting God himself as they bring the message of God to humankind----so it would be bigger

As for adultery it is considered as big sin too

Pegg said:
Matt. 19:3-9 And Pharisees came up to him, intent on tempting him and saying: Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife on every kind of grounds? In reply he said: Did you not read that he who created them at the beginning made them male and female and said: For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh? So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together let no man put apart.

This doesn't proves anything

Pegg said:

They said to him: Why, then, did Moses prescribe giving a certificate of dismissal and divorcing her? He said to them: Moses, out of regard for your hardheartedness, made the concession to you of divorcing your wives, but such has not been the case from the beginning. I say to you that whoever divorces his wife except on the grounds of fornication and marries another commits adultery.

Click to expand...

Welll then this becomes another scenario for adultery because the verses I quoted clearly said

Mark 10:10-12
10 When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this. 11 He answered, Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. 12 And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.

A Thousand Suns · Nov 5, 2010

Pegg said:
Ok thats a fair point. Yes, holy spirit was given to individuals before Jesus came, thats true. However, we need to understand that there was a special purpose that this 'comforter' was to perform.

Jesus was about to be killed, it was the night of his illegal trial and the next day he would be dead... he was worried about how his apostles might handle all that. He knew they were not fully prepared, they still had a lot to learn about Gods Kingdom and how the prophecies of the Hebrew Scriptures would come to their reality...there was still so much they didnt know. Thats why Jesus said "I have many things yet to say to you, but you are not able to bear them at present. (John 16:12) Jesus recognized that his disciples had many ideas, habits and customs that were not really in harmony with Gods law, and as he was soon to leave them he knew that it would primarily be Gods spirit that would induce them to make the changes needed. To follow Christ, they would need a 'helper' or 'comforter'...that is the special purpose of that one.... to help the christians be followers and observe Christs commandments.
John 14:25 While remaining with YOU I have spoken these things to YOU. 26 But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach YOU all things and bring back to YOUR minds all the things I told YOU"

What has interpretation of verse to do with proving me comforter was Holy Sprit :sarcastic

The same verse has been interpreted in other ways by other Christians

A Thousand Suns · Nov 5, 2010

smokydot said:
<deep sigh>

Jesus fulfilled the Levitical law of the priesthood, sacrifices, feasts, cleansings, purifications. . .by becoming all of them for those who believe in him.

He abolished the Old Covenant, mediated by Moses, and mediated a New Covenant in his blood (Lk 22:20).

Luke 22:20 (New International Version)
20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

Pegg · Nov 5, 2010

A Thousand Suns said:
Rejecting a Prophet would be rejecting God himself as they bring the message of God to humankind----so it would be bigger

As for adultery it is considered as big sin too

it is big sin, but all sin is forgivable except for one.
I'm guessing Mohammad taught in the Quran which is the unforgivable sin because Jesus also taught it.

So for this reason I have to say that anyone who has divorced and remarried is not necessarily going to 'hell' (which I do not believe is a place of fiery torment, but thats another subject)

No divorce is ever taken lightly and thankfully God takes all the extenuating circumstances of a divorce into consideration and he judges righteously. While he does not like divorce, he knows that mankind is weak and error prone and for reason he provided Jesus Christ as a way for us to make atonement for our sins.

A Thousand Suns said:
This doesn't proves anything[/quotes]

Jesus words do not prove anything?
I think they prove alot. His words prove that if a divorce occurs because one mate has been unfaithful, then God allows such a divorce to take place. It is a legal grounds for divorce.

Pegg · Nov 5, 2010

A Thousand Suns said:
What has interpretation of verse to do with proving me comforter was Holy Sprit :sarcastic

The same verse has been interpreted in other ways by other Christians

The scriptures say quite clearly that the 'comforter' is 'holy spirit' All christians understand that.

The comforter was promised to come and teach the 'christians'
As far as I'm aware, Mohammad did not do that.

A Thousand Suns · Nov 5, 2010

smokydot said:
Nope.

True faith is evidenced by obedience to Christ's commands.
Where there is disregard for, and disobedience of, Christ's commands, there is no true faith and, therefore, no salvation from the just wrath of God on sin.

You just said if you commit adultery (which considered as a sin according to Bible) wont matter as Jesus is our savoiur :facepalm:

smokydot said:
You're quite confident about what you erroneously think you know.

Mt 20:28: "The Son of Man. . .came to give his life as a ransom for many."

Matthew 20:25-28 (New International Version)

25 Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

How does this proves that Jesus died on cross for sins of mankind

smokydot said:
Mt 26:28: "This is my blood. . .which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." "Blood poured out" is death.

Matthew 26:27-29 (New International Version)
27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the[a] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

How does this proves that Jesus died on cross for sins of mankind

smokydot said:
Jn 10:11: "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for his sheep."

John 10:7-10 (New International Version)
7 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.[a] They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

How does this proves that Jesus died on cross for sins of mankind

A Thousand Suns · Nov 5, 2010

Pegg said:
it is big sin, but all sin is forgivable except for one.
I'm guessing Mohammad taught in the Quran which is the unforgivable sin because Jesus also taught it.

You assume , but there is big difference between assumptions and reality , You have judged Islam & Muhammad(pbuh) on the basis of limited knowledge you get from surrounding. But what does it means to be actually true ?You cant know that because you haven read Quran yet

Pegg said:
So for this reason I have to say that anyone who has divorced and remarried is not necessarily going to 'hell' (which I do not believe is a place of fiery torment, but thats another subject)

But according to Bible anyone who breaks least of the commandments wont enter kingdom of haven

Pegg said:
No divorce is ever taken lightly and thankfully God takes all the extenuating circumstances of a divorce into consideration and he judges righteously. While he does not like divorce, he knows that mankind is weak and error prone and for reason he provided Jesus Christ as a way for us to make atonement for our sins.

i disagree with that because many Christian's wouldn't take Bible for consideration before giving divorce as according to them 'Jesus died on cross for the sins of mankind' but the funny thing is Jesus never said that

Pegg said:
Jesus words do not prove anything?

No , what i meant was , what you are trying to prove from Jesus words doesn't makes sense to me

A Thousand Suns · Nov 5, 2010

Pegg said:
The scriptures say quite clearly that the 'comforter' is 'holy spirit' All christians understand that.

The comforter was promised to come and teach the 'christians'
As far as I'm aware, Mohammad did not do that.

I dont want to repeat myself like a robot--lol----but how can Comforter = Holy Sprit

Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 7:
"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you".

The prophecy clearly says that only if Jesus (pbuh) departs will the Comforter come. The Bible states that the Holy Spirit was already present on earth before and during the time of Jesus (pbuh), in the womb of Elizabeth, and again when Jesus (pbuh) was being baptized, etc

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