Jesus or Paul

The Truth said:

oohh my God , so you admitted that they were writers and it wasn't God's words
inspired writers??? come on ,, it's thier own view in thier own ideas and what they did see or hear but it wasn't inspiration from God because they weren't prophets.

you said it by yourself >>> writers

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Ok what do you call someone that puts pen to paper ? my guess would be a writer, and where exactly did I say the Scriptures wasn't Gods word..but if you would prefere for me to call them prophets fair enough, thats what they were, it still doesn't change my thoughts on what they penned was the INSPIRED word of God....The apostles themselves claimed that what they wrote was not their own thoughts ...And anyway whats all of this got to do with Paul being the founder of christianity ?

flysky said:

Hi glasgowchick,
I agree that are God words but what about the once i provided
1 Timothy 2:11-15
11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.
12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.
13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
15 But women[a] will be saved through childbearing–if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

This too are in Bible and they are not word of God. Not only that what about the verses in BIBLE were Paul says I am stupid and lied are those God words too if they are not then BIBLE is not word of God and if they are The Almighty can't be lyiar or stupid.

OK tell me this is it allowed to kill in Chrisitianity?

OK! you will say NO and proof me "Thou shalt not kill. (Exodus 20:13)."

OK! now tell me is it allowed to kill again you will tell me no then tell me what is this
1 Samuel 15:2-4
2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***.
4 And Saul gathered the people together, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah.


"Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. (Numbers 31:17-18)"

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Hi Flysky, all of this has nothing to do with my original question..If you are looking for a biblical debate on the bible then Can I suggest you post it on a more suitable thred..Thankyou...

OK! But i don't want to remind you my friend that don't be close minded. Open it and see what you. I personally Invite you to read Holy Quran.

flysky said:

OK! But i don't want to remind you my friend that don't be close minded. Open it and see what you. I personally Invite you to read Holy Quran.

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And we could just as well invite you to read the Bible.

The Truth said:

oohh my God , so you admitted that they were writers and it wasn't God's words
inspired writers??? come on ,, it's thier own view in thier own ideas and what they did see or hear but it wasn't inspiration from God because they weren't prophets.

you said it by yourself >>> writers

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No different from the quran. It was not written by Mohammed or during his life time. It was written by scribes who may or may not have been eyewitness to that which is written. They got together and decided what would be in the quran. If they did not agree on something then it was not included. So Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed never wrote a single word in any of their books. And even if they would have you are just following with out proof what some man thought to be true in a time where superstitions ruled. It is all hearsay and you make yourselves look foolish. Where is the proof in any of it?

Radar said:

No different from the quran. It was not written by Mohammed or during his life time. It was written by scribes who may or may not have been eyewitness to that which is written. They got together and decided what would be in the quran. If they did not agree on something then it was not included. So Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed never wrote a single word in any of their books. And even if they would have you are just following with out proof what some man thought to be true in a time where superstitions ruled. It is all hearsay and you make yourselves look foolish. Where is the proof in any of it?

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Quran was written at the time of Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) and here is the last verse which was revevled to him (PBUH)
"This day I have perfected your religion for you, completed my favor upon you and have chosen for you Islam as your religion" [5:4].
And there were more then 10 thousand people to wittness that because that was his (PBUH) last sermon.

PLEASE CHECK YOUR FACTS BEFORE YOU POST IT SIR.

michel said:

And we could just as well invite you to read the Bible.

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MICHEL, THANK YOU FOR INVITING ME.
FYI: I HAVE READ THE BIBLE MANY TIMES AND I DO HAVE KING JAMES VERSION.
AND IF YOU NEED QURAN LET ME KNOW.

flysky said:

Quran was written at the time of Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) and here is the last verse which was revevled to him (PBUH)
"This day I have perfected your religion for you, completed my favor upon you and have chosen for you Islam as your religion" [5:4].
And there were more then 10 thousand people to wittness that because that was his (PBUH) last sermon.

PLEASE CHECK YOUR FACTS BEFORE YOU POST IT SIR.

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You should be the one checking the facts. The Quran that you read was not compiled in to one book until after Mohammed's death. And Mohammed did not write a word of it. He was illiterate so therefore he could not have written or read it so who knows if it is correct or even what he said. Scribes got together after Mohammed's death to put it together into one book about 20 years after his death. Even the today's Arabic version of the Quran is not the same as it was first written. Vowelling and dotting of the text. Ancient Arabic was written without dots, leaving some letters to look identical. And in many cases the lack of vowels would make two different words look identical. So if the Quran that you read has vowling and dotting then guess what? It is a translation. Now if it is in English who knows what meaning is lost. Do your homework and don't think just because you are Muslim you know all there is about the Quran or Islam. Even Muslims will admit that they cannot understand all which is written in the Quran. That is why you have other books to tell you how thing should be perceived. Like the Fiqh-us-Sunnah. Why do you need this if the Quran is complete? You also know that Quran was not put together in chronological order. It was put together in a way that would easy to recite and memorize. Do some research for yourself don't just follow blindly.

Radar said:

You should be the one checking the facts. The Quran that you read was not compiled in to one book until after Mohammed's death. And Mohammed did not write a word of it. He was illiterate so therefore he could not have written or read it so who knows if it is correct or even what he said. Scribes got together after Mohammed's death to put it together into one book about 20 years after his death. Even the today's Arabic version of the Quran is not the same as it was first written. Vowelling and dotting of the text. Ancient Arabic was written without dots, leaving some letters to look identical. And in many cases the lack of vowels would make two different words look identical. So if the Quran that you read has vowling and dotting then guess what? It is a translation. Now if it is in English who knows what meaning is lost. Do your homework and don't think just because you are Muslim you know all there is about the Quran or Islam. Even Muslims will admit that they cannot understand all which is written in the Quran. That is why you have other books to tell you how thing should be perceived. Like the Fiqh-us-Sunnah. Why do you need this if the Quran is complete? You also know that Quran was not put together in chronological order. It was put together in a way that would easy to recite and memorize. Do some research for yourself don't just follow blindly.

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YES & NO, Yes the Holy Quran was gathered all together right after the death of Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) but it was all written before his death and he made sure that people close to him wrote it and and tell him what they wrote and memorize it. No book in the world is more memorized then Holy Quran. Every single verse was told by him (PBUH) and as i told you in his last sermon they were more then 10 thousand people and more then half were hafaz (Memorized the whole Quran) and if they would have heard something wrong they would have corrected it and non of his companians, family members, wives said any thing after it was put in as one book and most of them memorized it and we still have that Holy Quran in Turkey. As far as its order it was done not by anyone but by Prophet Muhammed because in his last ramadan he did pray whole Quran and his companines were behind him (PBUH) listerning it and its order. As far as understanding Quran, yes it does have explaination of every part of it or else people like "today's media" will take thing out of context and use it against Islam. Radar I hope I answered all your comments and no I don't follow blindly I do all the research because Islam encourage to challege Quran and I do it and it always have answers to me and it encourages to learn other religions and I do that too. BY the way do you follow any religion? Just a question.

Also people check out askmuslims.com or if you want to talk one on one with muslims call 1877whyislam and clear your questions.

LASTLY PICK ANY HOLY QURAN FROM ANY PART OF THE WORLD AND COMPARE TO ANY OTHER HOLY QURAN FROM OTHER PART OF THE WORLD AND YOU WON'T FIND A DIFFERENCE. MIRACLE OR WHAT AND IF IT WAS HUMAN WRITTEN YOU WOULD HAVE FOUND IT.

flysky said:

YES & NO, Yes the Holy Quran was gathered all together right after the death of Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) but it was all written before his death and he made sure that people close to him wrote it and and tell him what they wrote and memorize it. No book in the world is more memorized then Holy Quran. Every single verse was told by him (PBUH) and as i told you in his last sermon they were more then 10 thousand people and more then half were hafaz (Memorized the whole Quran) and if they would have heard something wrong they would have corrected it and non of his companians, family members, wives said any thing after it was put in as one book and most of them memorized it and we still have that Holy Quran in Turkey. As far as its order it was done not by anyone but by Prophet Muhammed because in his last ramadan he did pray whole Quran and his companines were behind him (PBUH) listerning it and its order. As far as understanding Quran, yes it does have explaination of every part of it or else people like "today's media" will take thing out of context and use it against Islam. Radar I hope I answered all your comments and no I don't follow blindly I do all the research because Islam encourage to challege Quran and I do it and it always have answers to me and it encourages to learn other religions and I do that too. BY the way do you follow any religion? Just a question.

Also people check out askmuslims.com or if you want to talk one on one with muslims call 1877whyislam and clear your questions.

LASTLY PICK ANY HOLY QURAN FROM ANY PART OF THE WORLD AND COMPARE TO ANY OTHER HOLY QURAN FROM OTHER PART OF THE WORLD AND YOU WON'T FIND A DIFFERENCE. MIRACLE OR WHAT AND IF IT WAS HUMAN WRITTEN YOU WOULD HAVE FOUND IT.

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Do I follow any religion? NO. Have I? Yes. Raised Christian, converted to Islam (even went to Mecca). I am now Agnostic, like your profit was when Gabriel gave him a visit. I can pick up any copy of Harry Potter in the world and it will be them same also, that doesn't make that story any more true than the quran. But all the copies of the quran in the world do not match the original. All of the copies are translations. There were no dotting or vowling of the old arabic so what you read is the accepted translation of the original. Where in the original letters and words could look identical to others because there was no dotting or vowling. Who is to say what is this or the other. And just because the quran maybe the most memorized book does not make it anymore credible, especially when it is required or forced in some countries. We could say that John 3:16 is the most memorized verse in the bible what does that mean to you? Nothing because you do not believe the Jesus was the begotten son of god. I am glad if don't follow blindly but dig a little deep and without guidance think rationally and you may be surprised at what you find.

Let's see.... we have this man who has been in this cave for 30 days fasting and he sees an image that he says is Gabriel. So we follow this guy around listening to him speak, we act as he acts and follow his commands to rid this place of it's idolaters. He tells tails that have been recited before.



Now today if we knew a man that was in the desert had not eaten or drank anything for a day or two and he sees a mirage and comes to us to witness what he saw. Is what he saw for real or is what we now know as a mirage. Something that you would see for not eating or drinking in the desert.



Could Mohammed had only seen a mirage and taken it for something else. And him being the leader that he was could he have made people believe in what he and only he had seen. While repeating things that were already thought to be true. Those were the times of superstitions that hold no truth for what we now know today.




I am agnostic so I can say I don't know and I don't care, because it is unknowable.

Radar said:

Do I follow any religion? NO. Have I? Yes. Raised Christian, converted to Islam (even went to Mecca). I am now Agnostic, like your profit was when Gabriel gave him a visit. I can pick up any copy of Harry Potter in the world and it will be them same also, that doesn't make that story any more true than the quran. But all the copies of the quran in the world do not match the original. All of the copies are translations. There were no dotting or vowling of the old arabic so what you read is the accepted translation of the original. Where in the original letters and words could look identical to others because there was no dotting or vowling. Who is to say what is this or the other. And just because the quran maybe the most memorized book does not make it anymore credible, especially when it is required or forced in some countries. We could say that John 3:16 is the most memorized verse in the bible what does that mean to you? Nothing because you do not believe the Jesus was the begotten son of god. I am glad if don't follow blindly but dig a little deep and without guidance think rationally and you may be surprised at what you find.

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Well my guess about you was right on point, so you are a agnostic. Its funny how much importance you give to the dots let me tell you this, "It is usually assumed that the dotting of the Arabic script began with the advent of dotting of Qur'anic manuscripts. However, recent observation on a 70 year old Arabic papyri has shown conclusively that dotting was available as early as 22 AH, perhaps even earlier." If you want to more details i can proof you with that. As far as you were a muslim, how can trust you? Because as you talk of proof and drilling we would like to have the same from you. Send me info and I have a friend you work for saudi government and he will check if you are tell the truth.

flysky said:

Well my guess about you was right on point, so you are a agnostic. Its funny how much importance you give to the dots let me tell you this, "It is usually assumed that the dotting of the Arabic script began with the advent of dotting of Qur'anic manuscripts. However, recent observation on a 70 year old Arabic papyri has shown conclusively that dotting was available as early as 22 AH, perhaps even earlier." If you want to more details i can proof you with that. As far as you were a muslim, how can trust you? Because as you talk of proof and drilling we would like to have the same from you. Send me info and I have a friend you work for saudi government and he will check if you are tell the truth.

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I could careless if you trust me or not. I do not trust you or know you for that fact so I will never give personal information on pages like these. I will look for the papers (they are buried some where) and I will give you the name of the mosque in Jeddah, but that will be as far as I would be willing to go with proof. On forums like these I trust no one. The world is full of criminals religious or not.



Work on your writing, the last few sentences were hard to translate. But I think I know what you were getting asking for. It was sort of like reading the quran or bible.

Radar said:

I could careless if you trust me or not. I do not trust you or know you for that fact so I will never give personal information on pages like these. I will look for the papers (they are buried some where) and I will give you the name of the mosque in Jeddah, but that will be as far as I would be willing to go with proof. On forums like these I trust no one. The world is full of criminals religious or not.



Work on your writing, the last few sentences were hard to translate. But I think I know what you were getting asking for. It was sort of like reading the quran or bible.

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Well that shows the whole picture. By the way any one can get on internet and get a mosque name and say i was there, show us the proof.

As far as my senstences yes i am writting in hurry and i messed up few lines. when you say its sort of like reading the Quran or Bible. Well i can't say about Bible but as far as Quran Let me say you this, its written in "Arabic" may be thats why you didn't understand my friend and again it makes sense to me why didn't understand Islam.

Radar said:

I have nothing to prove.... I was just pointing out a couple of facts... You tried to clear them up... I am not sure if you did or not, but I would have to go with NOT... Again in your last sentence it is a little unclear... But I don't need or want clarification... I choose to live in my own happy little world...

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Well let the people judge.

Radar, I invite you to Islam, I know what you are going to say but I tell you if you say no again and again the satan will take advantage of it so break him.

I will join you but you have to prove God's or Allah's existance or even Satan's existance. And then you must prove why your way of worship is correct. I doubt that this is possible, but if you can then I will stand beside you.

hello guys ..

The title is so clear : Jesus or Paul

you can start a new thread with your thoughts about Islam Mr.Radar.


Peace

That's fair... It was nice to be able to read one of your post and understand it... J/K lighten up.

Radar said:

I will join you but you have to prove God's or Allah's existance or even Satan's existance. And then you must prove why your way of worship is correct. I doubt that this is possible, but if you can then I will stand beside you.

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Before I proof you the existance of GOD why don't you proof me the existance of you.