Baptism?

I note that the scriptures never used the term "confirmation"... unless I just missed something.

Now we are getting confused with the role of the Spirit here. Acts 2:38 teaches us that the Spirit is given in baptism. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is our seal.

However, the Apostles could also impart Spiritual Gifts (Speaking in tongues, gift of healing, etc) by laying on of their hands. The need for this practice passed with the Apostles and there was no mechanism given (or needed) to continue this. However, the indwelling of the Spirit was promised for us and our children and ALL who would believe. That's pretty inclusive to me.

For what it's worth Victor, you will have an easier time justifying confirmation through church doctrine than through the scriptures.

NetDoc said:

So Joe,

you gotta give me ONE REFERENCE in the scriptures that asks us to "accept Jesus into our hearts". Now go back and read Acts 2:38 and it will tell you where we get the "gift of the Holy Spirit". In baptism.

you also gotta show me where Jesus was "spiritually" baptized. I only see our Lord undergoing water baptism.

As for 1 Corinthians 1:17, Paul did not say that baptism should not be done... but that the most important thing for him was to preach the gospel.

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All through John Jesus says to believe in him, the Bible says we are the temple of the Holy Spirit, he indwells us, seals us, gifts us, when we are saved, this is him being in our hearts. At times he fills us too. You gotta know, Acts was a transitional time, when the Holy Spirit was FIRST poured out first on the disciples at Pentecost, then to the Jews, at pentecost, then to the gentiles and samaratans and followers of John the Baptist. Now we in the church, are baptised by the spirit the moment we believe.

The Lord did not get baptism for salvation, he was sinless, he did it out of obedience, just like any saved person should.

Right, Paul baptized people, I said that, the rest of the verse is that he does not want to take away from the cross of Christ. You see, by adding anything to Christs death on the cross to save you, you take away from what he did.

We are saved only by the shed blood of Christ, that is quite clear throughout the new testament, I will not add anything I do to that, no sacrament, ritual, church, nothing but trusting that what Christ did on the cross paid for my sins, period, I preach Christ crucified, its simple but its me. PEACE!

Soooo,

what you are saying is that you can't find any scriptures that tell us to "pray Jesus into our heart" or to "accept Jesus into our heart"???

Do you have a scripture that says

Joe said:

baptised by the spirit the moment we believe.

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???

How do you deal with scriptures like Acts 2:38 and I Peter 3:21???

NetDoc said:

Soooo,

what you are saying is that you can't find any scriptures that tell us to "pray Jesus into our heart" or to "accept Jesus into our heart"???

Do you have a scripture that says ???

How do you deal with scriptures like Acts 2:38 and I Peter 3:21???

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I know those phrases are not in the Bible, but they are an accurate portrail of what happens when we believe in, place our trust in what Jesus did to save us.

Acts, as I said is a transitional book showing when the Holy Spirit FIRST was given to the church. In Peter, he compares Baptism to the flood, as a 'like figure', saying Baptism saves us, same as James says works save us. But if you read, in James, the person SAYS he has faith but has no works. So the works, and baptism are the evidence to me that a person has truly accepted the redemtive work of Christ on the cross to save him.

I understand where you come from, and you can argue your point well with scripture, and I am glad for that. My position, from my studies, is difficult for some folks, but here it is. I believe that the penalty for sin is death, Christ paid the penalty, we believe in Him, that is we trust that he is who he said he is, and that he paid the penalty. That is grace, unmerited, undeserved, favor, that we simply by faith believe he paid for our sins. Now if someone wants to add to that any other thing THEY do for salvation besides accept it, if they add sacraments, rituals, joining a lodge, a particular church, doing good works, then they are in error. Many churches that add more than simple child-like trust/belief in Christ's death, one will eventually find that if they dig deep down, they feel salvation is found in their church and theirs alone.

Now, I believe in baptism, and going to church, and good works, but not for salvation, but as a result of it. I believe WE are the church. I participate in the sacraments of baptism and communion, baptism in obedience once I was saved, and communion in remembrance of what Christ did for us on the cross. People will not agree with me, but that is my simple old-time religion, and I will not budge on it.

It is all about the blood really:

Col. 1:14 In whom we have redemption THROUGH HIS BLOOD, even the forgiveness of sins:
Rev 1:5 ...Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins IN HIS OWN BLOOD.
Col, 1:20 And having made peace THROUGH THE BLOOD of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself...
Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption THROUGH HIS BLOOD, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace.
Eph. 2:13 But now, IN CHRIST JESUS, ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.
Romans 5:9 Much more then, being NOW justified BY HIS BLOOD...
Romans 3"25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through FAITH IN HIS BLOOD...
Acts 20:28 ...feed the church of GOD, WHICH HE HATH PURCHASED WITH HIS OWN BLOOD.

So, I put my faith in the blood of Christ, everything else is just gravy after that. I bellieve in, or trust in, or accept, the death of Christ as payment for my sin and that alone. PEACE!

Oh, just one more verse showing we are saved WHEN we believe:
John 5:24 Verily, verily I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH everlasting life, and SHALL NOT COME into condemnation, but IS passed from death to life.

break down:

Verily, verily I say unto you... How sure was Jesus about this saying, a double truly truly.

He that heareth my word...Did you hear his word?

And believeth on him that sent me...Do you believe God sent Jesus to die for your sins?

HATH everlasting life...Does it says WILL have, or might have if, or does it say HATH, as in right now

And SHALL NOT COME into condemnation...Does it say we MIGHT not, or that we SHALL not?

But IS passed from death to life. At what moment does one pass from death to life?
(hint) The moment we first believe...

Now, the following verses, you must look up, but they all say that he that believeth in me HAS eternal life:
John 3:15, 16, 18, 36, 5:24, 6:35, 40, 47, 7:38, 11:25, 26, 12:44, 46, 14:12, and that is just in John, and there are around 15 other verses that say that he who believes in Jesus is saved. I don't need to list them do I? If you read all this, I thank you, and God bless!

NetDoc said:

Actually, there is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which happens at the TIME of baptism and then there are "spiritual gifts" which require laying on of the Apostle's hands. As I Corinthians 13 teaches, these type of things will pass, but LOVE will continue on.

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Even though we explained it differently, that's pretty much what I believe, as well.

NetDoc said:

So Joe,

you gotta give me ONE REFERENCE in the scriptures that asks us to "accept Jesus into our hearts". Now go back and read Acts 2:38 and it will tell you where we get the "gift of the Holy Spirit". In baptism.

you also gotta show me where Jesus was "spiritually" baptized. I only see our Lord undergoing water baptism.

As for 1 Corinthians 1:17, Paul did not say that baptism should not be done... but that the most important thing for him was to preach the gospel.

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Well, I guess I haven't been distributing karma to everyone equally. Darn! I'm just going to have to thank you for that excellent post and hold off on the frubals (as if you need any more!). I especially like your second paragraph!

NetDoc said:

However, the Apostles could also impart Spiritual Gifts (Speaking in tongues, gift of healing, etc) by laying on of their hands. The need for this practice passed with the Apostles and there was no mechanism given (or needed) to continue this.

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Okay, so why don't we need these things any more? It would seem to me that they would be as necessary and valid today as they ever were.

joeboonda said:

You see, by adding anything to Christs death on the cross to save you, you take away from what he did.

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How on earth do you come to this conclusion? Obedience to Jesus' commandments takes away from what He did? You've got to explain that one to me!

Joe said:

I know those phrases are not in the Bible, but they are an accurate portrail of what happens when we believe in, place our trust in what Jesus did to save us.

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Re-read your post carefully. Do you ascribe to any other authority other than the scriptures? Many denominations do. But if you rely on only the scriptures then you need to reconsider your stance.

You say that baptism is a work. I would ask then for a scriptural reference to demonstrate this. What? Can't find one? How about I show you that BELIEF is a work.

John 6:25 When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, "Rabbi, when did you get here?"

26 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."

28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" 29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." NIV

Obviously IF we believe someone, then we DO what they say. My Lord said:

Mark 16:15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. NIV

I would suggest that belief entails an action ON that belief. Let's look at Naaman;

II Kings 5:8 When Elisha the man of God heard that the king of Israel had torn his robes, he sent him this message: "Why have you torn your robes? Have the man come to me and he will know that there is a prophet in Israel." 9 So Naaman went with his horses and chariots and stopped at the door of Elisha's house. 10 Elisha sent a messenger to say to him, "Go, wash yourself seven times in the Jordan, and your flesh will be restored and you will be cleansed."

11 But Naaman went away angry and said, "I thought that he would surely come out to me and stand and call on the name of the LORD his God, wave his hand over the spot and cure me of my leprosy. 12 Are not Abana and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than any of the waters of Israel? Couldn't I wash in them and be cleansed?" So he turned and went off in a rage.

13 Naaman's servants went to him and said, "My father, if the prophet had told you to do some great thing, would you not have done it? How much more, then, when he tells you, 'Wash and be cleansed'!" 14 So he went down and dipped himself in the Jordan seven times, as the man of God had told him, and his flesh was restored and became clean like that of a young boy. 15 Then Naaman and all his attendants went back to the man of God. He stood before him and said, "Now I know that there is no God in all the world except in Israel. Please accept now a gift from your servant." NIV

So, what work did Naaman do here? He believed what the man of God told him and his belief prompted him to dip 7 times into that slimy river Jordan. In reality, GOD did all of the work. He was the one who cleansed Naaman of his leprosy, and so God does all of the work to cleanse us of our sins. Now go re-read verse 13... baptism is an expression of our humility. We don't have to understand it... just believe that God can do anything. How much eazier it would be if God asked us to feed 500 people. THAT would be a works based salvation. Here is a task: go do it. But baptism is an appeal to God... just as it says in II Peter 3:21.

But true faith leads us smack dab into baptism:

Galations 3:26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. NIV

You are wise in understanding that it is ALL about the blood. It is the DEATH of jesus that was important to us as Christians, so please consider this passage out of Romans:

Romans 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. NIV

Now let's revisit James' words in light of what belief should bring us to:

James 1:22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25B ut the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does. NIV

and

James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. NIV

Jesus told me to be baptized, and by gum... I believed him and was baptized.

Whew, that was long... I hope it was half as lucid.

NetDoc said:

Jesus told me to be baptized, and by gum... I believed him and was baptized.

Whew, that was long... I hope it was half as lucid.

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It was, believe me.

Very much along the same lines, when people say that the only thing that is required of us is faith, I can't help but think of the word "faithful." Technically, it means nothing more than "full of faith," but we use it somewhat differently. Both words, "faith" and "faithful" have the same root. (Okay, one of them is the root.) How is it possible to have real faith in someone without being faithful to that individual? It's not. If we profess faith in Christ, we show that we mean what we say by being faithful to Him. And being faithful to Him means obeying Him -- not disregarding His instructions (because we mistakenly believe that to do as He said would be "taking away" from His sacrifice!).

Katzpur said:

Okay, so why don't we need these things any more? It would seem to me that they would be as necessary and valid today as they ever were.

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Read ! Corinthians 13 for the insight and the answer. Everything passes but love, and love is how everyone will know we are disciples

NetDoc said:

Read ! Corinthians 13 for the insight and the answer. Everything passes but love, and love is how everyone will know we are disciples

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I totally agree that when we show love to our fellow men, we are showing Jesus that we are His disciples. Perhaps you thought that I was saying we need the spiritual gifts (i.e. healing, tongues, etc.) as evidence that we are true Christians. I totally don't believe that for a minute. But, I do believe that the same spiritual gifts that existed in the Savior's time still exist today and are needed today. I believe that God uses us as instruments in His hands, and that He gives us power to do certain things in His name. I can't even imagine how a just God would deny us the same gifts He was so free in giving in ancient times.

Katzpur said:

It was, believe me.

Very much along the same lines, when people say that the only thing that is required of us is faith, I can't help but think of the word "faithful." Technically, it means nothing more than "full of faith," but we use it somewhat differently. Both words, "faith" and "faithful" have the same root. (Okay, one of them is the root.) How is it possible to have real faith in someone without being faithful to that individual? It's not. If we profess faith in Christ, we show that we mean what we say by being faithful to Him. And being faithful to Him means obeying Him -- not disregarding His instructions (because we mistakenly believe that to do as He said would be "taking away" from His sacrifice!).

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i tink having faith in christ is to follow christ, and to believe in and follow the ways of christ, and christ made a very deffinite effort to reach out to those who were outcast from society - the poor the lame and the blind

C_P

What was the "real purpose" of tongues in the first century? Here we had a handful of men who spoke mostly Aramaic who had to preach the word to everyone.

Acts 2:5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!" 12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, "What does this mean?"
13 Some, however, made fun of them and said, "They have had too much wine." NIV

I am sure that were there a real need, that the Spirit would do that again. As it is, we have so many who can speak various languages that we don't really need this gift. All of the instances of glossalalia that I have seen have only been gibberish serving no distinct purpose.

I have always wondered "why" this happens, and I think it gets right back to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that happens during baptism. When people try to do things "their way" instead of God's way, they often miss the peace that comes from belief. Since they do not grow spiritually, they feel that they have to "prove" their spirituality. Hence they resort to outward signs instead of inward change. Baptism is the point where we receive the Holy Spirit which means it's the point where we can START to change and grow spiritually.

NetDoc said:

What was the "real purpose" of tongues in the first century? Here we had a handful of men who spoke mostly Aramaic who had to preach the word to everyone.

I am sure that were there a real need, that the Spirit would do that again. As it is, we have so many who can speak various languages that we don't really need this gift. All of the instances of glossalalia that I have seen have only been gibberish serving no distinct purpose.

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I agree that there is less of a need for the gift of tongues now than in times past. Thus, the gift is probably not as frequently used as it was in ancient times. I would also agree with what you said about "gibberish." But, I am aware of at least once where the gift of tongues was used in a modern-day setting. As was the case anciently, it was used to further the work of the Lord.

NetDoc said:

For what it's worth Victor, you will have an easier time justifying confirmation through church doctrine than through the scriptures.

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I could say the same of your tradition of Sola Scriptura....

~Victor

You could, but I would disagree.

Scripture says it's all we need.

II Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. NIV

But this is a subject for another thread.

Like I said, you can't find "confirmation" in the scriptures. But can find Baptism, repentance, cut to the heart, belief, hearing the word: see what I mean?

NetDoc said:

You could, but I would disagree.

Scripture says it's all we need.

II Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. NIV

But this is a subject for another thread.

Like I said, you can't find "confirmation" in the scriptures. But can find Baptism, repentance, cut to the heart, belief, hearing the word: see what I mean?

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It certainly is..
Go ahead and start a thread on that verse alone.

~Victor

Katzpur said:

How on earth do you come to this conclusion? Obedience to Jesus' commandments takes away from what He did? You've got to explain that one to me!

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By adding something YOU do to EARN or KEEP your salvation, you are saying that his death was not enough to pay for your sins. I keep his commandments BECAUSE I am saved, not to get or keep saved.