Jesus or Paul

glasgowchick · Aug 24, 2005

Hello one and all, I not really sure if Im posting in the right place but I have a question ? I have recently heard for the first time in my life that Paul was the founder of Christianity..I would like to know where and when that belief came from and are there any solid bibical grounds for this belief, are there anyone on here who believes this, if so why ?

Mathew 16:18 Jesus said he would build his church...to me that says it all however if this should be in a debate form please except my apoligy..

Melody · Aug 24, 2005

glasgowchick said:
Hello one and all, I not really sure if Im posting in the right place but I have a question ? I have recently heard for the first time in my life that Paul was the founder of Christianity..I would like to know where and when that belief came from and are there any solid bibical grounds for this belief, are there anyone on here who believes this, if so why ?

Mathew 16:18 Jesus said he would build his church...to me that says it all however if this should be in a debate form please except my apoligy..

Are you talking about the christian "faith"....or the origins of organized christian "religion".

Christ was the founder of christianity. Without Him, there wouldn't be christianity. As far as the church, I'm a firm believer in "don't know....doesn't matter a whit."

Jayhawker Soule · Aug 24, 2005

Melody said:
Christ was the founder of christianity. Without Him, there wouldn't be christianity. As far as the church, I'm a firm believer in "don't know....doesn't matter a whit."

There is every reason to presume that "Christ" was a Pauline gentile fabrication. Apparently, those closest to the Jerusalem sect were observant Jews who considered Jesus entirely human and Paul a heretic.

glasgowchick · Aug 24, 2005

Melody said:
Are you talking about the christian "faith"....or the origins of organized christian "religion".

Christ was the founder of christianity. Without Him, there wouldn't be christianity. As far as the church, I'm a firm believer in "don't know....doesn't matter a whit."

Hi Melody, yes I was talking about the Christian "faith" and I too believe that Jesus founded Christianity..Thanks for your reply..

flysky · Aug 24, 2005

I don't think Jesus (peace be upon him) founded Christianity. I say that because no one ever heard Jesus (pbuh) say that he is a Christian so that shows that some put their words in his month let see who did it. Paul, who wrote the Bible chapter "most of them" Did he follow Jesus (pbuh) when Jesus (pbuh) was alive? Yes or no?

It is worth mentioning that the Bible references cited might not be exactly as the Bible you are using. There are MANY Bibles on the market that are used by different Christian sects and all of these sects say that their book, though different, is the word of God. Such Bibles are: The Revised Standard Version 1952 & 1971, New American Standard Bible, The Holy Bible; New International Version, the Living Bible, New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures used by Jehovah Witnesses, Roman Catholic Version and the King James Version. A special note: I have not found in any of these Bibles where the "New Testament" calls itself the "New Testament," and nowhere does the "Old Testament" call itself the "Old? Testament." Also, the word "Bible" is unknown within the pages of the Bible.

In addition to the many different Christian sects and Bibles, I have learned that there are also different men, not Prophets, who founded these sects and are using various interpretations of the Bible and/or man-made doctrines as their creed.

I would like to share with you some thoughts that you may not have read or known about the Bible being the word of God. Briefly, let me mention that on September 8, 1957, the Jehovahs witnesses in their "Awake" magazine carried this startling headline - 50,000 Errors in the Bible. If you ask a Jehovahs witness about this headline, it may be said that today most of those errors have been eliminated. How many have been eliminated, 5,000? Even if 50 remain, would one attribute those errors to God?

Let me pose another question: if a "Holy" book contained conflicting verses would you still consider it to be Holy? Most likely you will say of course not.

glasgowchick · Aug 24, 2005

flysky said:
I don't think Jesus (peace be upon him) founded Christianity. I say that because no one ever heard Jesus (pbuh) say that he is a Christian so that shows that some put their words in his month let see who did it. Paul, who wrote the Bible chapter "most of them" Did he follow Jesus (pbuh) when Jesus (pbuh) was alive? Yes or no?

It is worth mentioning that the Bible references cited might not be exactly as the Bible you are using. There are MANY Bibles on the market that are used by different Christian sects and all of these sects say that their book, though different, is the word of God. Such Bibles are: The Revised Standard Version 1952 & 1971, New American Standard Bible, The Holy Bible; New International Version, the Living Bible, New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures used by Jehovah Witnesses, Roman Catholic Version and the King James Version. A special note: I have not found in any of these Bibles where the "New Testament" calls itself the "New Testament," and nowhere does the "Old Testament" call itself the "Old? Testament." Also, the word "Bible" is unknown within the pages of the Bible.

In addition to the many different Christian sects and Bibles, I have learned that there are also different men, not Prophets, who founded these sects and are using various interpretations of the Bible and/or man-made doctrines as their creed.

I would like to share with you some thoughts that you may not have read or known about the Bible being the word of God. Briefly, let me mention that on September 8, 1957, the Jehovahs witnesses in their "Awake" magazine carried this startling headline - 50,000 Errors in the Bible. If you ask a Jehovahs witness about this headline, it may be said that today most of those errors have been eliminated. How many have been eliminated, 5,000? Even if 50 remain, would one attribute those errors to God?

Let me pose another question: if a "Holy" book contained conflicting verses would you still consider it to be Holy? Most likely you will say of course not.

Hi Flysky, I appreciate your thoughts thankyou, but to start answering your post, would probably turn this into a debate, to debate on this is not my intention, it was something I heard and I was looking for peoples [ like yourself ] inputs to see what their thoughts were on the matter..For me Christ Jesus was the beguining of Christianity. But Just for the record, the followers of Christ were first given the name Christians at antioch if Im remembering Correctly..

Uncertaindrummer · Aug 24, 2005

Jesus built the Church. He says so (Matthew 16:18) The NAME Christian simpyl comes from Christ. Sayign that Jesus didn't call Himself a "Christian" makes as much sense as claiming Luther didn't call himself a "Lutheran". He doesn't have to. He IS Christ.

Jayhawker Soule · Aug 24, 2005

Uncertaindrummer said:
Jesus built the Church. He says so (Matthew 16:18)

No. The anonymous author of Matthew suggests a monologue occurring half a century earlier.

Ronald · Aug 24, 2005

Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

A new religion? Really! Be followers Paul, even as Paul followed the Way/Messiah.

The Messiah and Paul were Hebrew, kept Torah. If Yeshua/Jesus did not follow it (perfectly), he is not the Messiah/Christ. If Paul wrote the above verse and proceeded to create a new religion, he, then is a bald faced LIAR! Paul did not lie, he imitated Yeshua/Jesus.

flysky · Aug 25, 2005

Ronald said:
Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

A new religion? Really! Be followers Paul, even as Paul followed the Way/Messiah.

The Messiah and Paul were Hebrew, kept Torah. If Yeshua/Jesus did not follow it (perfectly), he is not the Messiah/Christ. If Paul wrote the above verse and proceeded to create a new religion, he, then is a bald faced LIAR! Paul did not lie, he imitated Yeshua/Jesus.

You believe that Paul didn't lie for sure?

flysky · Aug 25, 2005

glasgowchick said:
But Just for the record, the followers of Christ were first given the name Christians at antioch if Im remembering Correctly..

Hi Glasgowchick, tell me one thing how many scripts do you have which Jesus (PBUH) are exact words of Jesus (PBUH) in current Bible. OK! how about this, Who has more say in Bible? Jesus (PBUH) or Paul? Because that the right way to know if you are following Jesus (PBUH) or Paul. And if you say Paul do you agree word he wrote was the word of GOD? Let me know.

Ronald · Aug 25, 2005

flysky said:
You believe that Paul didn't lie for sure?

Yeah! For sure!

Are there lies attributed to Paul? Yes! That is why this thread began.

glasgowchick · Aug 25, 2005

flysky said:
Hi Glasgowchick, tell me one thing how many scripts do you have which Jesus (PBUH) are exact words of Jesus (PBUH) in current Bible. OK! how about this, Who has more say in Bible? Jesus (PBUH) or Paul? Because that the right way to know if you are following Jesus (PBUH) or Paul. And if you say Paul do you agree word he wrote was the word of GOD? Let me know.

Hi Flysky, Im not sure if I am understanding your questions exactly and Like I have said, I didn't post this thread as something to be debated, I was only wanting to know if anyone else had heard what I had heard about Paul..I will try and answer your questions in the way they are coming across to me ok.

I believe that All the Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. 2Timothy 3:16-17.

Secondly, but know this first of all that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of ones own interpertation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.. 2Peter 1:20

Paul says himself in 1Cor 2 :13 Which things we also speak, Not in words taught by Human wisdom but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with Spiritual words..

So yes, I believe what the Inspired writers wrote, to be the written word of God...

Hopefully I have answered your questions. These men wrote what they heard from God. who has more say in the Bible..God Does...

glasgowchick · Aug 25, 2005

Uncertaindrummer said:
Jesus built the Church. He says so (Matthew 16:18) The NAME Christian simpyl comes from Christ. Sayign that Jesus didn't call Himself a "Christian" makes as much sense as claiming Luther didn't call himself a "Lutheran". He doesn't have to. He IS Christ.

Hi UD, was this addressed to me ? I don't recall saying that Jesus didn't call himself a Christian, I know that the name Christian comes from Christ, I was talking about His followers being first called Christians at antioch..

flysky · Aug 26, 2005

glasgowchick said:
So yes, I believe what the Inspired writers wrote, to be the written word of God...

Hopefully I have answered your questions. These men wrote what they heard from God. who has more say in the Bible..God Does...

Hello Glasgowchick,

OK! so you say that Bible is God's word. So tell me this

Are these Paul's own opinions and commands or are they truly GOD Almighty's UNCOMPROMISED Divine Revelations:

1 Timothy 2:11-15
11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.
12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.
13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
15 But women[a] will be saved through childbearingif they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

So, were the above truly Paul's opinions or GOD Almighty's Divine Commands?

If the Bible is truly GOD Almighty's UNCOMPROMISED Revelations, then why do we have Paul's personal views in the book???

How can any person then say that the Bible is ALL GOD Almighty's Divine Revelations and is error-free?

flysky · Aug 26, 2005

Ronald said:
Yeah! For sure!

Are there lies attributed to Paul? Yes! That is why this thread began.

Hey Ronald,

OK! tell me how many books do your Bible have because as far as I know
Protestant Church (66 books)
Roman Catholic Church (73 books)

So who is right? Because both as saying they are. By the way who added and subtracted things?

OK ONE SIMPLE QUESTION FOR ALL OF YOU "Was The Bible Same As We have In Our Hands Today?"

glasgowchick · Aug 26, 2005

flysky said:
Hello Glasgowchick,

OK! so you say that Bible is God's word. So tell me this

Are these Paul's own opinions and commands or are they truly GOD Almighty's UNCOMPROMISED Divine Revelations:

1 Timothy 2:11-15
11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.
12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.
13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
15 But women[a] will be saved through childbearingif they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

So, were the above truly Paul's opinions or GOD Almighty's Divine Commands?

If the Bible is truly GOD Almighty's UNCOMPROMISED Revelations, then why do we have Paul's personal views in the book???

How can any person then say that the Bible is ALL GOD Almighty's Divine Revelations and is error-free?

Hi Flysky, As I have already said, I believe that all the writers were guided By the Holy Spirit. they wrote not their own thoughts but what they heard through the Holy Spirit.

Titus 1:2.3 God who cannot lie manifested the Word.
Hebrews 6:18 It is impossible for God to lie
Rev 21:5 These words are faithful and true.
Mathew 10:19-20 It is not you who speaks, but the father who speaks in you.

And many many more Scripture both in the NT and the OT which confirm that the bible is the writen word of God...

Whatever Paul wrote, expressed, There is no doubt in my mind he had authority from God to do so..

Ronald · Aug 26, 2005

flysky said:
Hey Ronald,

OK! tell me how many books do your Bible have because as far as I know
Protestant Church (66 books)
Roman Catholic Church (73 books)

So who is right? Because both as saying they are. By the way who added and subtracted things?

OK ONE SIMPLE QUESTION FOR ALL OF YOU "Was The Bible Same As We have In Our Hands Today?"

Yeshua and Pauls Bible is called the TaNaK/Tora-Nevim-Ketuvim/first testament. This is scripture, the ones Paul said were good for instruction and building of the Saints. Our Bible is that Bible plus the gospels and the commentary by the diciples, which makes most of the NT, Pauls commentary on how to follow Yeshua the LIVING TORAH. Making those parts about the same as the Hebrew Oral Torah.
Paul does just like the Rabbi's and builds fences to keep you between the lines, attempting to keep you on the strait way.
No, our present Bible has had too many cooks(Too many cooks, spoil the broth)Too much western thought, changing the meaning of the written script. i. e. anti-semetic leaning (feasts of the Jews)etc, etc. Leading us into 3500 denominations, double minded X 70 X 7 X 7. How can this be right?
Are we not to become, ONE?

TashaN · Aug 26, 2005

glasgowchick said:
So yes, I believe what the Inspired writers wrote, to be the written word of God...

Hopefully I have answered your questions. These men wrote what they heard from God. who has more say in the Bible..God Does...

oohh my God

, so you admitted that they were writers and it wasn't God's words
inspired writers??? come on ,, it's thier own view in thier own ideas and what they did see or hear but it wasn't inspiration from God because they weren't prophets.

you said it by yourself >>> writers

flysky · Aug 26, 2005

glasgowchick said:
Hi Flysky, As I have already said, I believe that all the writers were guided By the Holy Spirit. they wrote not their own thoughts but what they heard through the Holy Spirit.

Titus 1:2.3 God who cannot lie manifested the Word.
Hebrews 6:18 It is impossible for God to lie
Rev 21:5 These words are faithful and true.
Mathew 10:19-20 It is not you who speaks, but the father who speaks in you.

And many many more Scripture both in the NT and the OT which confirm that the bible is the writen word of God...

Whatever Paul wrote, expressed, There is no doubt in my mind he had authority from God to do so..

Hi glasgowchick,
I agree that are God words but what about the once i provided
1 Timothy 2:11-15
11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.
12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.
13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
15 But women[a] will be saved through childbearingif they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

This too are in Bible and they are not word of God. Not only that what about the verses in BIBLE were Paul says I am stupid and lied are those God words too if they are not then BIBLE is not word of God and if they are The Almighty can't be lyiar or stupid.

OK tell me this is it allowed to kill in Chrisitianity?

OK! you will say NO and proof me "Thou shalt not kill. (Exodus 20:13)."

OK! now tell me is it allowed to kill again you will tell me no then tell me what is this
1 Samuel 15:2-4
2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***.
4 And Saul gathered the people together, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah.

"Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. (Numbers 31:17-18)"

Jesus or Paul

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