Why did Jesus Die for us?

strikevipreMKII said:

I'm with you until here...then things get a little too much into the 'atonement theory'.

How about instead of 'removing' our imperfections (which you have already said was impossible) we learn what they are, and understand why they are there. The idea of being 'not good enough' is not because we are somehow born with 'sin', but merely telling us we won't get all of our failings, even if we look our entire lives. Even the ones we find will still pop out every now and then.
Imperfect doesn't mean 'not good enough until you accept Jesus, who died for you so your sins could be washed away', but instead is a form of encouragement. You won't fix everything about you that's wrong, but in fixing even one tiny thing, even for the briefest of seconds, you'll gain everything. In that second, you become a perfect reflection of God, which really is just a reflection of you. In essence, you and God become one, yet two at the same time. And it is only through our innate imperfection that this happens.

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you become a perfect reflection of god when you "fix" something?
what i understand you saying is, god is perfect and when we fix an imperfection we become a reflection of him....but that is like saying to your child,
"you will not be able to reach your full potential unless you become more and more like me"

waitasec said:

you become a perfect reflection of god when you "fix" something?
what i understand you saying is, god is perfect and when we fix an imperfection we become a reflection of him....but that is like saying to your child,
"you will not be able to reach your full potential unless you become more and more like me"

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You've missed the part where God and you become the same thing. And remember what I meant by 'fix'. Recognize, try to adapt...but any problem will never completely go away. There will always be that temptation to go back. But the point is not to eliminate your failings. It is only through your failings that you realize what success means. It's not about becoming more like anyone, but becoming one with God. How do you do that? Become one with yourself. Mind, body, soul. Three separate parts, but one and the same.

strikevipreMKII said:

You've missed the part where God and you become the same thing. And remember what I meant by 'fix'. Recognize, try to adapt...but any problem will never completely go away. There will always be that temptation to go back. But the point is not to eliminate your failings. It is only through your failings that you realize what success means. It's not about becoming more like anyone, but becoming one with God. How do you do that? Become one with yourself. Mind, body, soul. Three separate parts, but one and the same.

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ok.
if god and i are one. then i am god.
is that what you mean?

what temptation are you talking about?
gambling, alcohol, spending, eating, anger, jealousy
anything in excess is unhealthy and i don't need the bible or god to tell me that, just experience...so what is the point in religion if one can require this knowledge without it?

what i am trying to get at is the underlying notion we are never good enough for god unless we let god live in us and having god live with in us is subjected to manipulation.

the god in the christian bible is essentially saying, "you, on your own, can never be good enough"
i, as a parent, cannot imagine saying that to my child
as a parent you instill hope, trust and encourage individuality
you don't control a child in hopes they will become more like you...
let them fall let them learn from it... encourage them to eat the fruit of knowledge. why punish them for doing so? curiosity is innate go forth and fail...learn from your mistakes. live.

Pegg said:

Adam sinned against God and God required that he give back the life that God had given him.
Adam paid for his sin against God with his life. So do we because we also sin against God by not living up to his laws and standards we pay with our life.

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When you disobey the law and murder someone, have you sinned against the state? No. You have sinned against the person you murdered. You have sinned against other people. When you harm yourself while sinning, you sin against yourself, not God. When you sin against others, the sin is against others.

This is a sidetrack to my argument because I am claiming that you cannot pay for the sins of another because they are not your sins. This is ineffective because when the person pays for your sin, you and others are not discouraged to sin, and there is no reason to believe that you will change anyway.

This is true...but an imperfect man cannot produce a perfect man. We inherited his imperfect condition and that condition meant that we could not live up to Gods standards.

Thats the reason why God provided us with his son Jesus as a ransom...Jesus life in exchange for ours.

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You have no basis for saying that Adam could not have produced perfect people. I do not see why your statement has to be true. God would never allow innocent children to have the curse of their parents passed to them.

My big problem here is that if God is holy, then there is no reason to create people who would sin against him. Another problem is that God tested Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden when they had no knowledge of good and evil. It is even more unjust to let the punishment on Adam and Eve be transfered to their descendents. It is also unjust for Jesus a innocent man to be punished for their sins.

Needless to say, all this does not solve the problem of God's abhorence to sin. Even when Jesus died for humanity, we will still be sinners when we go to heaven and God will still have to live with sinners.

waitasec said:

you become a perfect reflection of god when you "fix" something?
what i understand you saying is, god is perfect and when we fix an imperfection we become a reflection of him....but that is like saying to your child,
"you will not be able to reach your full potential unless you become more and more like me"

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i guess thats a fairly accurate summation of what i'm saying, yes.

Our imperfections keep us separated from God, so by removing them, we can become united with him

Dan4reason said:

Why can't we just live for eternity without his sacrifice? What need do we have for it?

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because we are dependent on God for our continued existence and we can only live for eternity if we are one with God

Also, we are not cursed. Adam was not cursed either, death for him was not a curse, it was a consequence of independence from God.

We were born independent from God which is why we also die....but its not because God cursed us its because it was a natural consequence of independence.

Pegg said:

because we are dependent on God for our continued existence and we can only live for eternity if we are one with God

Also, we are not cursed. Adam was not cursed either, death for him was not a curse, it was a consequence of independence from God.

We were born independent from God which is why we also die....but its not because God cursed us its because it was a natural consequence of independence.

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Why did God make all this so difficult to understand? And why does the story vary from person to person?

Pegg said:

i guess thats a fairly accurate summation of what i'm saying, yes.

Our imperfections keep us separated from God, so by removing them, we can become united with him

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i don't know if you have children, but i cannot imagine saying to my child that their mistakes will separate them from me...even if they second guess me
when he grows up i hope he recognizes the value of learning from his mistakes and not to fear making them but to dive right in, trust his instincts and do his best and no matter the out come i still love him just as much...

it seems your version of god is to instill a fear of making mistakes because you're trying to reach perfection...trying to be united with god by being perfect...but no one can be perfect unless they become it and not fear the process.

our individuality ultimately separates us and to be called to become an imitation of the creator implies it is tyrannical, insecure and masochistic

Pegg said:

because we are dependent on God for our continued existence and we can only live for eternity if we are one with God

Also, we are not cursed. Adam was not cursed either, death for him was not a curse, it was a consequence of independence from God.

We were born independent from God which is why we also die....but its not because God cursed us its because it was a natural consequence of independence.

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I do not see why you think that we need God to live for eternity. With a good enough genetic good and medical knowledge, we may be able to do that without him.

Death was a natural consequence of Adam's sin. It is a punishment. There is no reason why we should be punished too. Death was an inbuilt punishment to the sin of eating the fruit and this was somthing God made. The genetic transfer of DNA of their descendents was also a process God created. Since his is omnipotent, He could easily have stopped such a terrible thing from happening without ever having to sacrifice his son.

A "natural consequence" of sin that is negative that is created by an omnipotent being is something we call punishment. God designed this consequence, so this is a direction punishment.

Dan4reason said:

I do not see why you think that we need God to live for eternity. With a good enough genetic good and medical knowledge, we may be able to do that without him.

Death was a natural consequence of Adam's sin. It is a punishment. There is no reason why we should be punished too. Death was an inbuilt punishment to the sin of eating the fruit and this was somthing God made. The genetic transfer of DNA of their descendents was also a process God created. Since his is omnipotent, He could easily have stopped such a terrible thing from happening without ever having to sacrifice his son.

A "natural consequence" of sin that is negative that is created by an omnipotent being is something we call punishment. God designed this consequence, so this is a direction punishment.

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if what you say is true, then why would he bother to send the Messiah to save mankind from sin and death?

the way the apostle Paul explained it is that through Adam all are dying, but through Christ all will be made alive. So, if God is punishing us for Adams sin, why does he provide us with a means to redeem ourselves?

waitasec said:

ok.
if god and i are one. then i am god.
is that what you mean?

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And God is you. It goes both ways. Two things as one, not one, not the other, but not a combination of the two either. Both exist as separate entities, yet are one thing at the same time. The paradox of faith.

what temptation are you talking about?
gambling, alcohol, spending, eating, anger, jealousy
anything in excess is unhealthy and i don't need the bible or god to tell me that, just experience...so what is the point in religion if one can require this knowledge without it?

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Knowledge of temptation is something we can figure out on our own, yes. I didn't say otherwise. Religion comes in after temptation strikes, and teaches how to deal with it without giving in to other temptations. And yes, we can learn this on our own as well. Religion helps. It is a tool, nothing more.

what i am trying to get at is the underlying notion we are never good enough for god unless we let god live in us and having god live with in us is subjected to manipulation.

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If you are subject to outside manipulation, God is still outside of you. Letting God live in you, and yourself in God makes God something inside yourself. Once God is there, there is no other source for manipulation besides yourself.

the god in the christian bible is essentially saying, "you, on your own, can never be good enough"

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It does sound that way, doesn't it? It makes God very possessive and needy, much like a spoiled child.
It's high time we drop this immature version of God. It gets you no where. Like I said, the 'imperfect' bit is not 'you're not good enough, but if you obey me, I guess I'll take you', but a statement of fact. We will fail more times that we will succeed. Anyone with ten seconds of life experience can tell you that. The beauty of the message, though, is that it is through this imperfection that makes us better, more complete and ultimately one with God.

i, as a parent, cannot imagine saying that to my child
as a parent you instill hope, trust and encourage individuality
you don't control a child in hopes they will become more like you...

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Though I don't have any children, if I had, I wouldn't say that to them either.

let them fall let them learn from it... encourage them to eat the fruit of knowledge. why punish them for doing so? curiosity is innate go forth and fail...learn from your mistakes. live.

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I believe we're saying the same thing here.

waitasec said:

it seems your version of god is to instill a fear of making mistakes because you're trying to reach perfection...trying to be united with god by being perfect...but no one can be perfect unless they become it and not fear the process.

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There is nothing about fear in anything i've said. We make mistakes and will continue to do so until such time as sin has been completely removed. But until that time, we need to rely on Gods mercy and request forgiveness through Jesus for our sins...and he will grant it. But we have to understand that Gods ultimate goal is for us to be free of sin altogether.

We have to start that process off by learning to live by Gods requirements, laws, standards and morals. Isaiah shows that the removal of sin is a part of the process...he gives a list of 9 actions required of us.
“Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean; remove the badness of your dealings from in front of my eyes; cease to do bad. Learn to do good; search for justice; set right the oppressor; render judgment for the fatherless boy; plead the cause of the widow.” (Isaiah 1:16, 17)

So if you think that we should embrace our imperfection in order to learn from it, you are mistaken. You dont learn good by doing bad.
You learn good by doing good....and in the same way you learn bad by doing bad.

If we are to please God, we must learn to do good and make it a part of our lives....this is what sets us on the way to having sin removed from us.

Pegg said:

So if you think that we should embrace our imperfection in order to learn from it, you are mistaken. You dont learn good by doing bad.
You learn good by doing good....and in the same way you learn bad by doing bad.

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Of course. We all learned to walk only after we stopped falling on our faces. All that falling business was just us refusing to walk. We all knew how to do it, we just felt like falling. And that crying each time we fell? That was just us saying we like it. Sometimes, I just trip and fall every now and then just to remind myself of how good it is.

Shine_0f_sun said:

Crucifixion story is totally nonsense.

Have christians ever thought how jesus "dying for our sins" made the slightest bit of difference?

Let's say I killed a man for no good reason. This is indeed a sin.

What is the difference between someone doing it before Jesus was born, and me doing it now? Is the murder which I do now forgiven because of Jesus, and I will go to heaven according to Christianity?

If I have to still pray and atone, did that not used to work before Jesus? Would the man doing it before Jesus was born, no be able to be forgiven?

so what actually difference did Jesus death make? I am just curious! I just wanna hear some logical answers since no Christian I know could really answer.

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One man's religion is another man's superstition.

Shine_0f_sun said:

Let's say I killed a man for no good reason. This is indeed a sin.

What is the difference between someone doing it before Jesus was born, and me doing it now? Is the murder which I do now forgiven because of Jesus, and I will go to heaven according to Christianity?

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If you were a Jew, and did it before Christ, you would have to pay for your crime with your life. You would receive the death penalty by Gods decree.

But after christ, God was willing to grant forgiveness upon the basis of Jesus death. God no longer demands the death penalty for such crimes.

Shine_0f_sun said:

If I have to still pray and atone, did that not used to work before Jesus? Would the man doing it before Jesus was born, no be able to be forgiven?

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No. The death penalty was the only option under the mosaic law.

Shine_0f_sun said:

so what actually difference did Jesus death make? I am just curious! I just wanna hear some logical answers since no Christian I know could really answer.

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God removed the mosaic law which required the death penalty. People no longer have to be Jewish or Jewish Proselytes to have a relationship with him. He has opened the door to all nations to have a relationship with him and worship him. And he is now giving mankind the opportunity to repent and turn to him and have their sins forgiven....all this because of Jesus sacrifice.

The future for mankind will be life rather then death.

Dan4reason said:

This is dan4reason and I want to start a discussion on the reason for Jesus' death and his plan for humanity. We will be debating over what the bible says about Jesus' plan and if that is reasonable.

I personally find it illogical to think that we are somehow in need of salvation because we are not perfect, especially when God was the one who made us in the first place. I also find it illogical that our sins are suddenly forgiven when an innocent person chooses to suffer for them. It makes no sense to me. Can anyone explain?

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I think it stems from the war that satan started in heaven. In a nutshell I think this is Jesus way of demonstrating two things.

First : He is better suited ti rule than satan

Second: He wanted to demonstrate the measure of love that He has for His creation.

Pegg said:

if what you say is true, then why would he bother to send the Messiah to save mankind from sin and death?

the way the apostle Paul explained it is that through Adam all are dying, but through Christ all will be made alive. So, if God is punishing us for Adams sin, why does he provide us with a means to redeem ourselves?

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It seems to me that atonement is illogical if we approch it with human reason and rationality.

I will summarize my arguments in one paragraph if you do not mind.

It makes little sense to test Adam and Eve who had no knowledge of good and evil, much less let the rest of humanity be punished for their failings. It makes no sense for a perfect God who is holy and abhores sin to create sinful beings (us). It makes no sense for God to send Jesus to atone for our sins because, punishing an innocent person even if he was willing, does not wipe away people's sins. It also does not take care of the problem of our sinfulness. The best thing God should have done is to either made people who could have lived by his requirements, or do not create such a harsh punishment for sin.

If you want you can debate my arguments some more, and you have done some of that. I once tried to disprove these arguments, but no matter how much I tried to interpret the bible, I was not able to rectify the massive contradictions in the whole atonement-first-sin philosophy. The God of the bible is known for punishing generations for the sins of their fathers.

Maybe, there is a flaw in my argument and I am misunderstanding the bible. Maybe the answer to all this is that God has some mysterious reason for all this that we small humans do not know yet. Maybe all this atonement stuff was made up by human beings, just like every other mythology. What do you think?

Danmac said:

I think it stems from the war that satan started in heaven. In a nutshell I think this is Jesus way of demonstrating two things.

First : He is better suited ti rule than satan

Second: He wanted to demonstrate the measure of love that He has for His creation.

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I do not understand your reasoning and I cannot currently debate you because I do not understand what arguments you are trying to make. Could you explain further?

Dan4reason said:

It seems to me that atonement is illogical if we approch it with human reason and rationality.

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You are right. It is illogical if we approach it with human reason and rationality. We need superhuman reasoning and rationality. We need grace/undeserved kindness to understand it.

Maybe, there is a flaw in my argument and I am misunderstanding the bible. Maybe the answer to all this is that God has some mysterious reason for all this that we small humans do not know yet.

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In the bible (somewhere), God says, "My ways are higher than your ways; my thoughts higher than your thoughts."
It was with these words in mind that i humbled myself and prayed to God and admitted that i was hopelessly lost. That i had no hope of finding him. And that he would have to come and find me.
(i had read the bible before that and was trying to reason it out for years but was unsuccessful - you kindna remind me of me)

So with that, i went to get to know more about God. I went to bible classes, then church and when i was ready, i accepted Christ.

So maybe you could do something similar? (if you want to understand the bible)