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Why the divide between Science and Religion...
- Thread starter Ulver
- Start date
mr.guy
crapsack
Please don't take any offense at this, but you have have to be a first class knob to polarize science and religion. I can't help but think that the two can pretty easily be complementary. I can understand the two are still huffy about this round earth thing (old news though, isn't it) and evolution is still a bone of contention (gonna have to live with that one for a while, it seems) but this is nuts. If you don't like your religion being shown up by some smart-*** scientist, then don't let a bunch of priests do ALL of your thinking for you. Intelligent design? Really grasping air, no doubt. As for scientists, i have a bunch of friends who took up that trade, and guess what? Some of them ARE idiots. Not that there bad scientists, but they give just as little thought to philosiphy, ethics and metaphisycs as everyone else: not their thing, right? Scientists aren't the new clergy, though some of them are interested in the job. that ain't science. Science is supposed to be fallible, if you ask me, otherwise it would be over before it got interesting. Religions that are so hung up on meaningless details of doctrine are doing a fantastic job of sucking the depth and fun out life.
Earth indeed is spherical, but a sphere is 3-dimensional, while a circle is 2-dimensional. Also He is speaking about the shape of the Earth during the days of creation.Ryan2065 said:
The point of this is that the Earth is round, not flat, as scientists one thought.
Hi, Mr Guy!mr.guy said:
No offense taken here.
True science does not conflict with the Bible at all.
God put the priests out of a job in the 1st century (but provided them with a means of early retirement). He's soon to put scientists out of a job also.
Ryan2065
Well-Known Member
DId you seriously just say that? "Flat" as you describe would mean a 2 dimensional object. Cut a circle out of paper my friend. Is it not flat? My point was the bible calls the earth a circle, circles are FLAT. they had a word at that time for sphere and did not use it. Why? Because the person who wrote it thought the earth was flat!AV1611 said:
Ryan2065
Well-Known Member
Huh? I was refering to the people from my origional post... Do i really have to point it out to you... Come on, keep up!AV1611 said:
Here the Earth is referred to as a circle, NOT a sphere. So as I said, if it was really god talking, he would have known it was a sphere and not a circle.Ryan2065 said:
Believe me, Ryan, He knows! But quite often God chose to use terminology that the hearer would understand. Jesus many times, when asked a question, did not answer it the way they were expecting. That's because He knew who he was talking to.Ryan2065 said:
The fact that God said CIRCLE and not SPHERE was His choice.
Even today the Earth is called a ball.
God spoke in plain language that even a child could understand, so He often used the simplest of terminology (example: STRETCHEST THE HEAVENS instead of EXPAND THE UNIVERSE).
I'm surprised you haven't notice the errorenous value of Pi given in 1 Kings 7:23.
Bibliophobes are all the same --- they'll hunt and peck at anything.
Mr Spinkles
Mr
Quite often people project motivations and intentions onto imaginary entities in order to rationalize ancient folklore.AV1611 said:
Human beings were no less intelligent 3,000 years ago than they are today. The only difference between us and them is that we have the benefit of centuries of experience which is handed down to us and which we learn as children and continue to learn in adulthood. Apparently, you don't believe your god was able to communicate this knowledge as well as modern education and textbooks can.Circle, sphere.....oh dear, oh dear!
Here's a thought: if god really wanted to imbue this knowledge to humankind, why not some diagrams? How about an equation or two?Let's think about this for a moment: do you really think a child can understand "stretchest the heavens"?AV1611 said:
Never in my wildest dreams could I have imagined the extent to which my manipulation of Charles and other intellectuals of the day would lead. For through these people came one of my greatest deceptions of the latter part of pre-Rapture human history.
Evolution? I asked, already knowing the answer.
Yes, Lucifer stated flatly. Evolution.
Young Charles grabbed hold of this lie with the fervency of a mad dog. In his naiveté, Charles believed his success was due to his passion for science, and his common sense approach of evaluation. What a vain little man. Little did he know that he owed his success to me, Lucifer snarled.
Yet the majority of people never know the extent of my capabilities in their lives, if they even acknowledge my existence at all. I harbor no bitterness to any man or woman who seeks personal glory, for that is part of the deception. Should people know the truth of their depraved state, or who I really am, or what it is that I really do in their lives, I probably wouldnt have as many followers.
Darwin was revered in those days before the Lamb of God returned. He stood against the established scientific and religious dogma. His false prophet of evolutionary propaganda, Thomas Huxley, the man who is known for coining the word agnostic, stood ahead of him, spouting forth with fire that would rival any nineteenth century preacher, the truth of evolution and the principles of free thought.
Charles was held in highest honor, and in awe, Lucifer continued. For they saw him as someone who had discovered the great secret that would be able to finally answer where the puny human beingsas well as all lifecame from, thus enabling them to lay aside the ridiculous notion of an Almighty God.
Yet it wasnt a complete success, was it? I asked.
No, of course it wasnt. Nothing ever is. There were some that melded the two concepts together in their minds, showing that God used evolution as his means. Nonsense of course, but they have done it.
And those who flatly rejected evolution in favor of divine creation?
Yes, the creationists, Lucifer responded. A tenacious group of people who responded point by point to every lie that I was able to conceive of through the leaders of evolutionary thought.
Evaluating the same data, I added, but from a Biblical perspective, showing that pure science is good, for pure science is simply the search for truth.
Yes. Yet, I have been able to change the course of the river of science away from the unadulterated search for truth, to the search for the truth with conditions. And one major condition was to throw out anything of the supernatural. Toss aside anything of God. Throw away any notion of miracles. Reduce everything that God has done to its lowest common denominator that can be substantiated in a lab, or supported by theory.
When I brought Darwin along, here at long last was a plausible alternative to the creationist viewpoint. It mattered little whether it really made any sense. It did not matter whether any of it could be proven, or even if it was proven fraudulent.
Such as Haeckels theory? I asked.
Ah, yes, very good. He gave me a quick and courteous nod. Ernst Haeckels theory of embryonic recapitulation is a very good example. Haeckel, an avid evolutionist in his own right, advanced this theory. A thought, born out of my demons influence, quickly took a life of its own. Haeckel wanted this theory. Evolutionists wanted this theory. And people who were not fully committed to the evolutionist theory wanted this theory for it would have been the first tangible proof that evolution was true.
Yes Haeckel wanted this to be true so much that he compromised himself and his integrity as a scientist, creating fraudulent results, I added.
Haeckel was a man after my own heart, Lucifer said. Yes, he faked much of the data for his scientific discovery that purported that the embryo of an animal goes through stages that closely resemble the embryos of other animals, therefore demonstrating a common ancestry. His theory was proven fraudulent in 1874 when Wilhelm Hess proved that he altered sketches. Others repudiated it as well, and the deception was even included in the 1956 edition of Darwins Origin of the Species. Yet, biologists continued to include his theory in textbooks to the very end of the Church Age.
That just shows me, Lucifer continued, the gullibility of the human race. It shows their pride and it shows their ignorance of anything eternal. To be given proof, yet to ignore that proof is a great benefit to my kingdom.
But there was so much more than Haeckels theory that cast a shadow on this wicked lie, I said.
True, very true. But it did not matter, for after but a short time, it became accepted, and no amount of proof or reasoning was going to change that. This goes back to my basic tactics that I shared with you in the beginning. We attack and attack and attack. We declare the truth of a lie over and over until it becomes accepted. Evolution was no different. We simply blanketed the earth with it, and it became accepted, regardless of the holes in its overall theory. It became accepted in the universities and in the laboratories. It became accepted in the high schools, in the libraries, in the homes, and even in some Christian churches.
This lie was brought to life at the perfect time, for my demons and I had done much to disillusion millions in the world regarding the existence of God and his book. Even in his early years, Darwin dabbled in the things of God, but we were able to show him the fallacies of the Bible, such as the Tower of Babel and the worldwide flood. As a result, he laid it aside as a book not to be trusted or taken seriously. He saw the words of the Bible declaring for those who didnt believe in the Son of God to be condemned to hell. Such a fate was unthinkable to young Charles Darwin, who called the Biblical hell a damnable doctrine.
Many times we used the seemingly unbridgeable connection between a God of love and those who are sent to everlasting separation and suffering in hell as a springboard to launch new religious movements and cults. Certainly, it was easier to remove the concept of hell from your teaching than come to grips with it. For some, it is easier to deny the existence of sin, than to deal with the ramifications of it. To only reflect and teach God in light of what most humans understand of love is easy for us to accomplish in the minds of men and women. So many are in hell tonight because of our influence on the weakness of mens minds, resulting in a world that no longer needs God.
I looked up at Lucifer, who sat comfortably with a smug look on his face.
Evolution allowed you to remove God from peoples minds and vocabularies. With Yahweh out of the way, accountability to Him was removed. With accountability removed, much of the guilt was tossed aside. I felt I had summed it up.
But not all, Lucifer added.
No, not all. For the law of God is written on the hearts of men and women, just as the Bible states. In order for that to be subdued, long periods of exposure and education would be necessary: repetitive exposure, to the sin that slowly removes the sharpness of a conscience and allows people to plunge deeper and deeper into their depravity.
Yes, Lucifer agreed. Only through constant exposure to the lies, to the wickedness, to the evil, would the conscience become cauterized to it. It is a deep branding that is necessary to deaden that sensitivity to God, for the touch of God goes deeply into peoples souls: Once the process is achieved, they become free from the nuisance of God and the burdens of guilt. They are free to swim in their wickedness, kicking their feet, splashing and laughing at well, the very face of God.
They become spiritual and moral sociopaths, I added, with little regard to what is right and what is wrong.
If, indeed, they have any regard at all. They move away from absolutes in that wonderfully deceptive world of relativism, a place to which I love to bring people. This is a place where a complete sense of personal freedom entices people to dance in the cauldron of destruction. It is where the fire is lit under the pot, and yet they do high dives into the stew, not knowing that I am going to eat them alive.
The devilish creature laughed aloud. Oh, how wonderful it is to shake my fist in the face of God, as I claim another ignorant victim. It took much investment; in fact, it took a lifetime of education. In order to be successful, it required a restructuring of the home, of the schools, and even the framework of the majority of churches. The social conscience was changed, which allowed a climate to exist that would never have been tolerated by the masses before. This was all accomplished based upon the foundation of evolution and humanism.
You take away the uniqueness of the human being, I said.
And people become nothing more important than any other animal, the dark one responded.
Which allows them to essentially act out any passion or desire they wish, as long as they really arent hurting anyone?
That is correct, Lucifer said. But one key point here is that a major part of the deception is the belief that many of these sins are harmless, both to others as well as to the one committing them. Typically, this is easily done, for we are able to influence peoples thoughts through what I spoke of previously: the concept of relativism.
Yes, I replied, hurrying to catch up with my writing. A truly dangerous path.
Yes, but the majority of the foolish human race has no idea.
www.interviewwithlucifer.com
Evolution? I asked, already knowing the answer.
Yes, Lucifer stated flatly. Evolution.
Young Charles grabbed hold of this lie with the fervency of a mad dog. In his naiveté, Charles believed his success was due to his passion for science, and his common sense approach of evaluation. What a vain little man. Little did he know that he owed his success to me, Lucifer snarled.
Yet the majority of people never know the extent of my capabilities in their lives, if they even acknowledge my existence at all. I harbor no bitterness to any man or woman who seeks personal glory, for that is part of the deception. Should people know the truth of their depraved state, or who I really am, or what it is that I really do in their lives, I probably wouldnt have as many followers.
Darwin was revered in those days before the Lamb of God returned. He stood against the established scientific and religious dogma. His false prophet of evolutionary propaganda, Thomas Huxley, the man who is known for coining the word agnostic, stood ahead of him, spouting forth with fire that would rival any nineteenth century preacher, the truth of evolution and the principles of free thought.
Charles was held in highest honor, and in awe, Lucifer continued. For they saw him as someone who had discovered the great secret that would be able to finally answer where the puny human beingsas well as all lifecame from, thus enabling them to lay aside the ridiculous notion of an Almighty God.
Yet it wasnt a complete success, was it? I asked.
No, of course it wasnt. Nothing ever is. There were some that melded the two concepts together in their minds, showing that God used evolution as his means. Nonsense of course, but they have done it.
And those who flatly rejected evolution in favor of divine creation?
Yes, the creationists, Lucifer responded. A tenacious group of people who responded point by point to every lie that I was able to conceive of through the leaders of evolutionary thought.
Evaluating the same data, I added, but from a Biblical perspective, showing that pure science is good, for pure science is simply the search for truth.
Yes. Yet, I have been able to change the course of the river of science away from the unadulterated search for truth, to the search for the truth with conditions. And one major condition was to throw out anything of the supernatural. Toss aside anything of God. Throw away any notion of miracles. Reduce everything that God has done to its lowest common denominator that can be substantiated in a lab, or supported by theory.
When I brought Darwin along, here at long last was a plausible alternative to the creationist viewpoint. It mattered little whether it really made any sense. It did not matter whether any of it could be proven, or even if it was proven fraudulent.
Such as Haeckels theory? I asked.
Ah, yes, very good. He gave me a quick and courteous nod. Ernst Haeckels theory of embryonic recapitulation is a very good example. Haeckel, an avid evolutionist in his own right, advanced this theory. A thought, born out of my demons influence, quickly took a life of its own. Haeckel wanted this theory. Evolutionists wanted this theory. And people who were not fully committed to the evolutionist theory wanted this theory for it would have been the first tangible proof that evolution was true.
Yes Haeckel wanted this to be true so much that he compromised himself and his integrity as a scientist, creating fraudulent results, I added.
Haeckel was a man after my own heart, Lucifer said. Yes, he faked much of the data for his scientific discovery that purported that the embryo of an animal goes through stages that closely resemble the embryos of other animals, therefore demonstrating a common ancestry. His theory was proven fraudulent in 1874 when Wilhelm Hess proved that he altered sketches. Others repudiated it as well, and the deception was even included in the 1956 edition of Darwins Origin of the Species. Yet, biologists continued to include his theory in textbooks to the very end of the Church Age.
That just shows me, Lucifer continued, the gullibility of the human race. It shows their pride and it shows their ignorance of anything eternal. To be given proof, yet to ignore that proof is a great benefit to my kingdom.
But there was so much more than Haeckels theory that cast a shadow on this wicked lie, I said.
True, very true. But it did not matter, for after but a short time, it became accepted, and no amount of proof or reasoning was going to change that. This goes back to my basic tactics that I shared with you in the beginning. We attack and attack and attack. We declare the truth of a lie over and over until it becomes accepted. Evolution was no different. We simply blanketed the earth with it, and it became accepted, regardless of the holes in its overall theory. It became accepted in the universities and in the laboratories. It became accepted in the high schools, in the libraries, in the homes, and even in some Christian churches.
This lie was brought to life at the perfect time, for my demons and I had done much to disillusion millions in the world regarding the existence of God and his book. Even in his early years, Darwin dabbled in the things of God, but we were able to show him the fallacies of the Bible, such as the Tower of Babel and the worldwide flood. As a result, he laid it aside as a book not to be trusted or taken seriously. He saw the words of the Bible declaring for those who didnt believe in the Son of God to be condemned to hell. Such a fate was unthinkable to young Charles Darwin, who called the Biblical hell a damnable doctrine.
Many times we used the seemingly unbridgeable connection between a God of love and those who are sent to everlasting separation and suffering in hell as a springboard to launch new religious movements and cults. Certainly, it was easier to remove the concept of hell from your teaching than come to grips with it. For some, it is easier to deny the existence of sin, than to deal with the ramifications of it. To only reflect and teach God in light of what most humans understand of love is easy for us to accomplish in the minds of men and women. So many are in hell tonight because of our influence on the weakness of mens minds, resulting in a world that no longer needs God.
I looked up at Lucifer, who sat comfortably with a smug look on his face.
Evolution allowed you to remove God from peoples minds and vocabularies. With Yahweh out of the way, accountability to Him was removed. With accountability removed, much of the guilt was tossed aside. I felt I had summed it up.
But not all, Lucifer added.
No, not all. For the law of God is written on the hearts of men and women, just as the Bible states. In order for that to be subdued, long periods of exposure and education would be necessary: repetitive exposure, to the sin that slowly removes the sharpness of a conscience and allows people to plunge deeper and deeper into their depravity.
Yes, Lucifer agreed. Only through constant exposure to the lies, to the wickedness, to the evil, would the conscience become cauterized to it. It is a deep branding that is necessary to deaden that sensitivity to God, for the touch of God goes deeply into peoples souls: Once the process is achieved, they become free from the nuisance of God and the burdens of guilt. They are free to swim in their wickedness, kicking their feet, splashing and laughing at well, the very face of God.
They become spiritual and moral sociopaths, I added, with little regard to what is right and what is wrong.
If, indeed, they have any regard at all. They move away from absolutes in that wonderfully deceptive world of relativism, a place to which I love to bring people. This is a place where a complete sense of personal freedom entices people to dance in the cauldron of destruction. It is where the fire is lit under the pot, and yet they do high dives into the stew, not knowing that I am going to eat them alive.
The devilish creature laughed aloud. Oh, how wonderful it is to shake my fist in the face of God, as I claim another ignorant victim. It took much investment; in fact, it took a lifetime of education. In order to be successful, it required a restructuring of the home, of the schools, and even the framework of the majority of churches. The social conscience was changed, which allowed a climate to exist that would never have been tolerated by the masses before. This was all accomplished based upon the foundation of evolution and humanism.
You take away the uniqueness of the human being, I said.
And people become nothing more important than any other animal, the dark one responded.
Which allows them to essentially act out any passion or desire they wish, as long as they really arent hurting anyone?
That is correct, Lucifer said. But one key point here is that a major part of the deception is the belief that many of these sins are harmless, both to others as well as to the one committing them. Typically, this is easily done, for we are able to influence peoples thoughts through what I spoke of previously: the concept of relativism.
Yes, I replied, hurrying to catch up with my writing. A truly dangerous path.
Yes, but the majority of the foolish human race has no idea.
www.interviewwithlucifer.com
@Aletheia
Religious fiction can always be rather interesting in providing different perspectives, but I persoanlly prefer works like Neil Gaiman's "AMERICAN GODS" & Anne Rice's "Memnoch the devil"
np: Woods of Ypres- Crossing the 45th Parallel
Religious fiction can always be rather interesting in providing different perspectives, but I persoanlly prefer works like Neil Gaiman's "AMERICAN GODS" & Anne Rice's "Memnoch the devil"
np: Woods of Ypres- Crossing the 45th Parallel
I fully understand that you believe this, and I respect the honesty and clarity with which you convey such arrogant, petrified silliness. To be equally blunt, I value your baseless proclamations not at all except, perhaps, as an exemplar of a particularly malignant form of primitive fundamentalism.AV1611 said:
Of course I do. So, for example, you believeAV1611 said:
WHERE SCIENCE DISAGREES WITH THE BIBLE --- SCIENCE IS WRONG
and, therefore, further believe ... Leviticus 11:20 - Every winged swarming thing that walks on all fours is detestable to you.
Thanks for sharing.
JerryL
Well-Known Member
Actually, none of these was established scientifically. They were all "conventional wisdom" at the time. About the only thing I can find which was entirely wrong and established through scientific method was phlotsgen.
Tearing apart your Biblical verses, including referencing biblical claims that the sun is in the sky and the moon is a light, and that there is water above the sky, and that all animals are gendered (two of every animal, male and female), and that the Earth is supported by pillars, and that hail is kept in a warehouse by God for us in times of war is just too much referencing for 8am.