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JerryL's debate about prayer, miracles, etc.

Aqualung

Tasty
This is a continuation of a debate JerryL and I got into in the "scriptures to condemn homosexuality" thread. I have never tried to move portions of a thread into another thread, so excuse the sloppiness and the fact that I repeat everybody's quotes about a million times. Also remember that I am the christian and that JerryL is the athiest(?), in case I got the quotes mixed up.

JerryL said:
Aqualung said:
Of course that's true. Which is why I never mentioned it, until you did first, and then I only mentioned it to say that I didn't think it was so far-fetched to believe that God would/had answer/ed my prayers about it. I wasn't trying to use it as proof.
God answers questions posed in prayer? Tell me what I'm wearing right now and I'll convert to your religion.
Aqualung said:
He only answers questions if I ask them in keeping with his will. I don't think it's his will to answer that question. It would either give you a really easy conversion and nobody else would get that same treatment (and I think it's up to faith to convert, too, not some silly "miracle" like the one you propose), or, which I think is more likely, you would tell me it was a lucky guess and distregard it. So I don't think it's in his will to answer that question, but I think it's always in his will to answer questions about doctrine.
Aqualung said:
JerryL said:
Let me see if I follow
1. You don't believe God's will is to convert me.
I don't beleive God's will is to try to convert you through some petty "miracle" gotten through a temptation to "prove" to some non-beleiver that God can tell me what you are wearing. There are tons and tons of other things you can look at which would be all the more convincing, but you don't see the divinity in that, how could I or God expect you to see the miracle of telling you what you were wearing. YOu would explain that away like you everything else.
JerryL said:
2. You think God only tells you the things in his will (making the act of asking irrellevent). How do you know it's not God's will that you perform a miricle?
God only tells me things if he wills it, but the act of asking is totally relevant. It's like if you ask your dad to buy you a candy bar at the store. Of course he wants to buy you it, and he knows you like candy, but you had to ask, first.
JerryL said:
3. Miracles cannot convert people (makes me wonder why Jesus went around performing so many).
Nowhere did I say that miracles cannot convert people. I'm just saying that with all the other stuff you probably witnessed but didn't understand that you won't be converted by just telling you what you were wearing. You would explain that away, because it is one of the most easily explained "miracles" anyone could perform
 

Aqualung

Tasty
Hmm. For some reason now when I try to submit the rest of the argument, the thing tells me "the message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 5 characters. I guess in the end, if you want to know all that has happened, you'll have to go to the homosexuality thread.

Aqualung said:
JerryL said:
To be blunt you are simply coping out of the argument. You've asserted that you can ask God a question and get it answered, and been called on it, and found wanting. You are simply making excuses why I should ignore the man behind the curtin.
I was saying that god can answer questions. You were saying that he would answer the question of what you were wearing. I never, EVEr, said that he WOULD. You're taking what I am saying and projecting it over completely unrelated things.
JerryL said:
To add insult to injury, your claims reun contrary to Biblical example. The Bible is rife with God going out of his way to show his power through the performance of miracles. They seem to have stopped about the same time as skepticim appeared. In the olden days, according to the Bible, you could use bitter water to tell if a woman had committed adultry or not. Now it doesn't work. In the olden days, when worshippers of Ball were encountered; God performed miricles on demand to prove that he existed and that Baal did not (or was impotent), but he no longer responds. In the olden days there were prophets left and right, but no one has made clear prophecy in thousands of years (since good record-keeping), and no one has prophecied modern events clearly. In the old days, Jesus wandered around performing one miracle after another, paying special attention to convince the skeptics (Thomas); now you just excuse away why you won' even perform one.
They do still happen, but people disregard them just as much as they did in the olden days. Even though Jesus performed countless miracles in front of many, many skeptics, the skeptics still didn't beleive, and they still killed the Son of God. There were always skeptics, and always miracles. That's still happening. A good thing to keep in mind is how little miracles Jesus did in his home town, where his family still lived. He did very few becuase of unbeleif. Will he suddenly change now and start only doing his miracles to the unbeleiving. In the new testament, it says that miracles will follow the beleivers, not the unbeleivers. Jesus only showed special consideration for Thomas becaause he was a desciple. Did he show special consideration for the Jews that crucified him by showing them that he was alive? No. He doesn't do that, and he still doesn't.
JerryL said:
And you could so hold it over my ead (since I said I would convert) and trump me on every discussion everywhere on this board. You could further drive nails in the coffin by repeating it under lab conditions.

Actually, if you cold do it under lab conditions, you would convert millions. If nothing else, you could get millions of theists who hold different religions.
God just doesn't work that way. And I woudn't convert millions. Most of people Jesus did miracles for didn't beleive it. People would brush it off by saying things like "she knew what the question was" "he lied about if she was right" "the lab technitions were in on the hoax," and other such things. It happens and has happened all th etime.
 

Aqualung

Tasty
Hey, it worked there. Well, anyway, that's the beginning and the end of our debate. I coudn't get the middle stuff in.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Aqualung said:
This is a continuation of a debate JerryL and I got into in the "scriptures to condemn homosexuality" thread. I have never tried to move portions of a thread into another thread, so excuse the sloppiness and the fact that I repeat everybody's quotes about a million times. Also remember that I am the christian and that JerryL is the athiest(?), in case I got the quotes mixed up.
Hi, Aqualung

Someone asking for miracles today is just tempting the Lord.

John 6:26 = JESUS ANSWERED THEM AND SAID, VERILY, VERILY, I SAY UNTO YOU, YE SEEK ME, NOT BECAUSE YE SAW THE MIRACLES, BUT BECAUSE YE DID EAT OF THE LOAVES, AND WERE FILLED.

John 12:37 = BUT THOUGH HE HAD DONE SO MANY MIRACLES BEFORE THEM, YET THEY BELIEVED NOT ON HIM.

God is well-familiar with this "show me a miracle" excuse, and He's too wise to jump through hoops for us.
 

SoyLeche

meh...
Quote Matt 12:39 to him. One time Joseph Smith was giving a talk and someone in the crowd was being really obnoxious, demanding a sign. Finally, Joseph paused, looked at the man, and told him that he needed to repent of his adultery. He then quoted this verse. Someone else in the crowd yelled out something like, "It's true, we caught him", or something to that effect.

This story may be apocraphal, and I don't have any documentation for it, but I like it anyway.
 

Aqualung

Tasty
AV1611 said:
God is well-familiar with this "show me a miracle" excuse, and He's too wise to jump through hoops for us.
Definitely. If someone is too blind to see the miracles that are happening all around, it's rediculous to think that He would give a specific miracle on demand. God has shown time and again that He only increases what he gives people if they show faith. He doesn't give more to those who don't even beleive what is already there.
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
I was saying that god can answer questions. You were saying that he would answer the question of what you were wearing. I never, EVEr, said that he WOULD. You're taking what I am saying and projecting it over completely unrelated things.
I find it increduliously convinient that God will answer questions, but never any which could actually be validated.

They do still happen, but people disregard them just as much as they did in the olden days.
I've seen noone risen from the dead, noone walking on water, noone turning water int wine, no pillars od fire, no boombing voices, no angels or rivers turning to blood or fire from the sky (shy of from stage magicians). I don't agree that miracles are happening just as they did in the old days.

Even though Jesus performed countless miracles in front of many, many skeptics, the skeptics still didn't beleive, and they still killed the Son of God.
So why did he perform them? What changed that God stopped?

There were always skeptics, and always miracles. That's still happening. A good thing to keep in mind is how little miracles Jesus did in his home town, where his family still lived. He did very few becuase of unbeleif.
Actually, I have a different hypothesis on why they don't show up there much. But he actually did a lot for unbelievers. He argued directly with the unbelieving rabbi, he showed his wounds to Thomas, etc.

In fact, God has often gone out of his way to make a miricle to prove himself to the unbelievers. The face-off between Jehovia and Baal is a classic.

Will he suddenly change now and start only doing his miracles to the unbeleiving. In the new testament, it says that miracles will follow the beleivers, not the unbeleivers. Jesus only showed special consideration for Thomas becaause he was a desciple. Did he show special consideration for the Jews that crucified him by showing them that he was alive? No. He doesn't do that, and he still doesn't.
Sounds like the emperor's new clothes.

God just doesn't work that way. And I woudn't convert millions. Most of people Jesus did miracles for didn't beleive it. People would brush it off by saying things like "she knew what the question was" "he lied about if she was right" "the lab technitions were in on the hoax," and other such things. It happens and has happened all th etime.
No, it doesn't. Emerpical data changes skeptical minds. Heck, there's a very analogous thing I was equally opposed to that I had my position changed on about 5 years ago because I was shown it and able to test it.

Definitely. If someone is too blind to see the miracles that are happening all around, it's rediculous to think that He would give a specific miracle on demand. God has shown time and again that He only increases what he gives people if they show faith. He doesn't give more to those who don't even beleive what is already there.
The Egyptians, the followers of Baal, the Sodomites, Thomas...
 

BUDDY

User of Aspercreme
Someone asking for miracles, is someone that does not understand the purpose of miracles. They are not and were never meant to be something done for the amusement of others. The Bible tells us that God's messengers used miracles so that they would be proven to be from God. The New Testament church fathers used miracles in this capacity also, but mainly it was to spread the word of God. God, through the Holy Spirit, inspired these men to impart God's will to those around the world. Once God's will was made physical (i.e. Holy Scripture) there was no need for this direct link and the miracles went away as more and more people had direct connect with the knowledge of God, through his word. Those that demand a miracle for their belief, have no real desire for the knowledge and truth of God's word, but they do have a desire to be shown sign. God does not have the desire to gain the souls of men, by pimping out His power to anyone that demands it from Him. God's desire is that men come to him freely, on their own, and desiring a knowledge of the truth.
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
The New Testament church fathers used miracles in this capacity also, but mainly it was to spread the word of God. God, through the Holy Spirit, inspired these men to impart God's will to those around the world.
OK. Spread the word of God to me and answer the question I posed.

Once God's will was made physical (i.e. Holy Scripture) there was no need for this direct link and the miracles went away as more and more people had direct connect with the knowledge of God, through his word.
So you assert that there have been no miracles since cannon was established around 500CE?

Those that demand a miracle for their belief, have no real desire for the knowledge and truth of God's word, but they do have a desire to be shown sign. God does not have the desire to gain the souls of men, by pimping out His power to anyone that demands it from Him. God's desire is that men come to him freely, on their own, and desiring a knowledge of the truth.
I don't think scripture bears you out. How many miracles did God give the Isrealies? Every fricking time they started worshipping some cow sculpture (within days it seems of millars of fire, reigns of locusts and water-tunnels they forget which god is which and worship whichever animal is handy), God comes along with a burning bush and a metamorphisizing staff.... well, until we get into an era where people actually start testing such claims; then they suddenly disappear, or show up like UFOs "only when no non-believer is looking".
 

Melody

Well-Known Member
JerryL said:
God comes along with a burning bush and a metamorphisizing staff.... well, until we get into an era where people actually start testing such claims; then they suddenly disappear, or show up like UFOs "only when no non-believer is looking".
Miracles still happen every day. Most people have just gotten too arrogant to see them and instead find some way to try and explain them away with "science".....evolution for example. Those who think the universe just popped into existence one day and man crawled out of the primordial ooze are missing the miracle. I know...I know...you'll say that's not a miracle because science yada yada. You've just made my point.

Personally, I think the doubting Thomases would still doubt if God physically stood in front of them. They'd find some way to explain it away.
 

Aqualung

Tasty
JerryL said:
I find it increduliously convinient that God will answer questions, but never any which could actually be validated.
I have many, many questions, and have gotten many, many answers, to questions that can be validated. You're asking the wrong questions, and asking them for the wrong purpos.

JerryL said:
I've seen noone risen from the dead,
Only his apostles and two women saw that.
JerryL noone walking on water said:
Only his apostles saw that
JerryL said:
noone turning water int wine,
only a few people saw that
JerryL said:
no pillars od fire, no boombing voices,
Only a few of God's chosen people saw or heard those
Miracles are happening. But just remember, the Bible even says that miracles aren't to convert those who don't beleive, but to strengthen the faith of those who do

JerryL said:
So why did he perform them? What changed that God stopped?
To fulfill prophecy, and to fulfill the law. What would have been the point of him coming down and doing nothing? Miracles can convert people, but that isn't their point, and they can't convert those who are asking to see a miracle. God hasn't stopped, either. I've witness quite a few miracles, in my day, but that's because I have faith, and miracles follow the faithfull.

JerryL said:
Actually, I have a different hypothesis on why they don't show up there much. But he actually did a lot for unbelievers. He argued directly with the unbelieving rabbi, he showed his wounds to Thomas, etc.
He did a lot for the people who were unbeleivers due to having never heard aobut him. He didn't very much at all for those who, even seeing what he could do, hardened their hearts and refused to believe.

JerryL said:
In fact, God has often gone out of his way to make a miricle to prove himself to the unbelievers. The face-off between Jehovia and Baal is a classic.
He has done very little. When he was resurected, did Jesus go to pontius pilot and tell him to let Jesus make a public declaration to all those who yelled for his crucifixtion about the fact that he has risen? When great multitudes came to hear him speak, did he do anything more than feed them? Did he shoot fire out his eyes in front of the pharisees, or did he just make them think and perhaps heal a man? Did he walk on water for anybody but his desciples? No. Miracles AREN'T for the unbeleiving. The face off between Jehova and Baal was for his chosen people, who still beleived in Jehova but didn't want to worship him.

JerryL said:
No, it doesn't. Emerpical data changes skeptical minds. Heck, there's a very analogous thing I was equally opposed to that I had my position changed on about 5 years ago because I was shown it and able to test it.
There's tons of proof out there. You have all you need, if you were really interested in conversion. You're not. You're interested in solidifying the beleif you have that God does not exist.

JerryL said:
The Egyptians, the followers of Baal, the Sodomites, Thomas...
It's funny you should mention the Egyptians, as it essentially proves my point. Even with all the miracles God was doint through Moses, the Pharoah refused to let the Irealites go. It was only until all the first borns died, but then it wasn't because of fear or beleif in the lord.
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
Melody said:
Miracles still happen every day. Most people have just gotten too arrogant to see them and instead find some way to try and explain them away with "science".....evolution for example. Those who think the universe just popped into existence one day and man crawled out of the primordial ooze are missing the miracle. I know...I know...you'll say that's not a miracle because science yada yada. You've just made my point.
The heat gnomes prove their existance every day, congregating near heat sources and making things nearby hot with their presence. You see it every time you put something on the stove and it gets hot. I know, you'll say "it's just condution", but you prove my point.

Your statement is rhetoric. There are clear examples of miracles on demand, and for the explicit benifit of the observer throughout the Bible. They are not "flowers bloomed", they are "every firstborn died in one night", "The sea parted", "A pillar of fire decended from the sky and killed only the opposing army".

I have many, many questions, and have gotten many, many answers, to questions that can be validated. You're asking the wrong questions, and asking them for the wrong purpos.
It's the only way I can tell the difference between real communication and false (whether believed or not). I can ask a plant what shirt I should wear today and come up with an answer and say that proves that plants are telepathic. It's not a useful claim without the ability to support it.

Only his apostles and two women saw that.
The son of the widow of Zarephath (1 Kings 17:17-23).
The Shunammite woman's son (2 Kings 4:32-37).
The young man laid in Elisha's grave (2 Kings 13:21).
The widow's son (Luke 7:12-15).
Jairus' daughter (Luke 8:49-55).
Lazarus (John 11:43,44).
Jesus (Matt. 28:1-15; Mk. 16:1-13; Lk. 24:1-12; Jn. 20:1-18).
Saint who were raised, coming from the tombs that were opened after Christ's crucifixion (Matt. 27:52-53).
Dorcas (Acts 9:37-40).
Eutychus (Acts 20:9-12).
Many others who are not named (Heb. 11:35).
only a few people saw that
Making fish appear? Hundreds? Appearing before Paul? Hundreds? Turning the Nile to blood? at least tens of thousands.

To fulfill prophecy, and to fulfill the law. What would have been the point of him coming down and doing nothing? Miracles can convert people, but that isn't their point, and they can't convert those who are asking to see a miracle. God hasn't stopped, either. I've witness quite a few miracles, in my day, but that's because I have faith, and miracles follow the faithfull.
The Emperors new clothes.

He did a lot for the people who were unbeleivers due to having never heard aobut him. He didn't very much at all for those who, even seeing what he could do, hardened their hearts and refused to believe.
Actually, mostof the world still hadn't heard about him.. but that too is a different topic.

He has done very little.
Plagues, pillar of fire, parting the sea, flooding the world, talking bush, magical ark of the covenant, striking dead those who enter the inner shrine without animal blood, walking theroughthe Jewesh camp with moses, bringing down the walls of Jerico, stopping the sun in the sky. Not to mention all the angels.

Then there's the NT. An army of zombie saints marching on Jeruselam, the eclipse and earthquake, the appearance before hundreds of non-believers (not the least of which paul himself), curing lepers, raising several dead people.

Your statement is simply false.

There's tons of proof out there. You have all you need, if you were really interested in conversion. You're not. You're interested in solidifying the beleif you have that God does not exist.
Rhetoric. I can reverse the language and say it about you.

It's funny you should mention the Egyptians, as it essentially proves my point. Even with all the miracles God was doint through Moses, the Pharoah refused to let the Irealites go. It was only until all the first borns died, but then it wasn't because of fear or beleif in the lord.
Actually, the *reason* he refused is "God hardened his heart".
 

Aqualung

Tasty
JerryL said:
he son of the widow of Zarephath (1 Kings 17:17-23).
The Shunammite woman's son (2 Kings 4:32-37).
The young man laid in Elisha's grave (2 Kings 13:21).
The widow's son (Luke 7:12-15).
Jairus' daughter (Luke 8:49-55).
Lazarus (John 11:43,44).
Jesus (Matt. 28:1-15; Mk. 16:1-13; Lk. 24:1-12; Jn. 20:1-18).
Saint who were raised, coming from the tombs that were opened after Christ's crucifixion (Matt. 27:52-53).
Dorcas (Acts 9:37-40).
Eutychus (Acts 20:9-12).
Many others who are not named (Heb. 11:35).
Oh! Raise others from the dead! I thought you meant be resurected himself. But anyway, he only "revived" people when they asked him IN FAITH to raise them. They didn't ask "knowing" that it woudn't work. They didn't ask somebody else to ask for them, because the beleived so little that they didn't want to do it themselves. They asked, in faith, so they got an answer.
 

Aqualung

Tasty
JerryL said:
Making fish appear? Hundreds? Appearing before Paul? Hundreds? Turning the Nile to blood? at least tens of thousands.
When you say stuff like this, can you say which verses you're looking at? I find it helpful if I can read them myself, but I usually don't know exactly where they are.
As for the fish appearing, he didn't say, "Look! I have three fish... and now I have a whole lot of fish." Only his disciples saw how many he started with and how many he ended with.

JerryL said:
The Emperors new clothes
You say a lot of stuff like this. you're just writing it off without any proof. You're essentially just saying "you're wrong" without telling me why.
JerryL said:
Actually, the *reason* he refused is "God hardened his heart".
Actually, that's a mistranslation. It should have said "pharoah harded his heart." It says the LORD because, probably, the original just said "he" and a translator at one point took this to mean God, not the Pharoah.

JerryL said:
It's the only way I can tell the difference between real communication and false (whether believed or not). I can ask a plant what shirt I should wear today and come up with an answer and say that proves that plants are telepathic. It's not a useful claim without the ability to support it.
You can ask God anything, too. But if you think tha tyou won't get answer, you won't. And you can't expect others to pray for you.

most of the things that you mentioned when I said he had done very little either ended up killing everybody except the beleivers, so only the beleivers witnessed it anyway, were actually only seen by the believer (the burning bush, for example), or weren't beleived anyway, even though they were horribly miraculous
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
Oh! Raise others from the dead! I thought you meant be resurected himself. But anyway, he only "revived" people when they asked him IN FAITH to raise them. They didn't ask "knowing" that it woudn't work. They didn't ask somebody else to ask for them, because the beleived so little that they didn't want to do it themselves. They asked, in faith, so they got an answer.
Not true: For example, everyone just declared Lazarus dead and Jesus brought him back.

When you say stuff like this, can you say which verses you're looking at? I find it helpful if I can read them myself, but I usually don't know exactly where they are.
As for the fish appearing, he didn't say, "Look! I have three fish... and now I have a whole lot of fish." Only his disciples saw how many he started with and how many he ended with.
Most of these are pretty commonly known stories (and I'm referring to a bunch) so I've not been citing passages. The fish instance occurs in front of (and to) a crowd of "about 5000" Matthew 14.

You say a lot of stuff like this. you're just writing it off without any proof. You're essentially just saying "you're wrong" without telling me why.
The emperors new clothes is a parable about a beautiful set of clothing that supposedly only the wise can see. The fact of the matter is that they don't exist, but since no one wants to claim they are unwise, an awful lot of people start claiming to see them.

The Bible is rife with miricles that appeared to thousands and were undisputeable. When challenged to provide one now, I get a whole slew of (often contrary) responses. Only the faithful can see miracles these days (which, of course, conflicts with the claim also made that miracles are all around me and I'm denying them), and the miracles are never concrete. Faith-healers abound, but none has replaced a missing limb; we are down to hearsay, grasping at turning everything miraculous, and blobs that "resemble Jesus" on toast.

Actually, that's a mistranslation. It should have said "pharoah harded his heart." It says the LORD because, probably, the original just said "he" and a translator at one point took this to mean God, not the Pharoah.
"Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them" - Exodus 10:1

I looked at several versions (NIV, ASV, NASV, KJV) and all agree on it.

You can ask God anything, too. But if you think tha tyou won't get answer, you won't. And you can't expect others to pray for you.
Why can't I expect that?

most of the things that you mentioned when I said he had done very little either ended up killing everybody except the beleivers, so only the beleivers witnessed it anyway, were actually only seen by the believer (the burning bush, for example), or weren't beleived anyway, even though they were horribly miraculous
No, that's simply not true. But let's hit a really prime example.

Once there was this guy named Saul. Saul didn't believe in Jesus and wasn't looking ot believe in Jesus. Then Jesus appeared to him in front of hundreds of corroborating witnesses and converted him even though he had read the scripture and not believed and was a skeptic.
 

Aqualung

Tasty
JerryL said:
Most of these are pretty commonly known stories (and I'm referring to a bunch) so I've not been citing passages. The fish instance occurs in front of (and to) a crowd of "about 5000" Matthew 14.
Yeah, I know, and I'm really sorry. But It just really helps me to read it for myself, so I can see the actual language, and what it is saying. And, while I may know pretty well what is in the Bible, I usually don't know where.
JerryL said:
The emperors new clothes is a parable about a beautiful set of clothing that supposedly only the wise can see. The fact of the matter is that they don't exist, but since no one wants to claim they are unwise, an awful lot of people start claiming to see them.
I know what the Emperor's new clothes refferrs to. But you don't ever say why you think they don't exist. You just say that they don't. And just saying that's it's parrallel is no form of proof. It's just a statement. If I said, "people just say the sky is blue. It's really not." would anyone beleive me unless I gave proof that it wasn't blue, and not reffered them to a fairy tale?
JerryL said:
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them"
Well, it should say, "he has hardened his heart." (This I know through latter-day revelation. do you want to debate into that, or just leave it an undecided thing due to difference of sources?)
JerryL said:
Why can't I expect that?
Because Jesus always says thing like "ask in faith" or "if you do this in faith it will work." Faith is essential.
JerryL said:
Once there was this guy named Saul. Saul didn't believe in Jesus and wasn't looking ot believe in Jesus. Then Jesus appeared to him in front of hundreds of corroborating witnesses and converted him even though he had read the scripture and not believed and was a skeptic.
And you never told me where that was, so I haven't been able to read it for myself. The simple fact is that I can't find things, no matter how well known they are. If you want me to debate it, tell me where it is.
 
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