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John 1:1 Discussion

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Bryan X

Member
Hey people,

Let's have a discussion on John 1:1, shall we? I know this verse(and lots others) is quoted to prove that Christ is God. Let's have a debate on those who believe that Christ is God and those who believe Christ is not God using John 1:1. You can use other verses as well but let's try to stick to John 1:1 as best we can. I know it's only decent if I break the ice first, but I'd like someone to do the head start instead.

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ...and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
 
Ceridwen018

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
Well, I think it's pretty black and white. This verse clearly says that Jesus was god made flesh...what are the alternative interpretations?
 
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dan

Well-Known Member
John 1:1 is a verse that has been corrupted (along with many segments of John) by neoplatonic thought. John wrote his letters during a time when this philosophy was running rampant through the church. His teachings were quickly diluted by the ever prevelant Greek philosophies that invaded the church after the Gospel was turned over to the Gentiles. The lack of stable authority at that time only helped to perpetuate the platonic influence. St. Augustine later cemented platonic teaching into the church. The Catholic idea of the trinity is only a branch of this esoteric enigmatic breed of philosophy that so entertains the lugubriously self-righteous.
 
R

Ronald

Well-Known Member
There are two aspects of John's writing.
#1. We need to know alittle about Hebrew thought and language.
#2. John was a Kabbalist, SOD level of interpretation.
Compare Genesis 1, John 1:1-5, both are almost the same.
Yeshua is the Word of God, was with God and was God.
God spoke the Word and it came into being, everything that was made was made by him God by the words from his mouth. Torah = Word of God = Yeshua born of woman, the word made flesh and dwelt among them. Aleph Bet first born of creation, God spoke the Torah by the Words from his Aleph Bet. All of the terms and words are in both Testaments, meaning the same thing and pointing to Yeshua Messiah sent into the world as the lamb of God, to redeem the Elect from sin.
 
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dan

Well-Known Member
Christ was with God in the beginning, and Christ shares all the atributes and perfections of God, including the title occasionally; but Christ and God are two different people and always have been.
 
B

Bryan X

Member
dan said:
Christ was with God in the beginning, and Christ shares all the atributes and perfections of God, including the title occasionally; but Christ and God are two different people and always have been.
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Shares? What do you mean shares? Isn't it true that God performed all those miracles through Christ? But does that mean Christ is God? Well, I don't think so.

Christ and God are 2 [very] different people('beings' is a much better term, I'd rather use)...yes, that's true. That statement only proves that since Christ differs from God, then He is not God. By the way, that seems a little hypocritical to me how you say that Christ shares the same attributes of God and then say that they are 2 different beings.

Oh my, this thread just might go a long way.
 
Christ Michael

Christ Michael

Member
Jesus taught his apostles the truth regarding the persons of the Paradise Trinity, but they thought he spoke figuratively and symbolically. Having been nurtured in Hebraic monotheism, they found it difficult to entertain any belief that seemed to conflict with their dominating concept of Yahweh. And the early Christians inherited the Hebraic prejudice against the Trinity concept.

The first Trinity of Christianity was proclaimed at Antioch and consisted of God, his Word, and his Wisdom. Paul knew of the Paradise Trinity of Father, Son, and Spirit, but he seldom preached about it and made mention thereof in only a few of his letters to the newly forming churches. Even then, as did his fellow apostles,Paul confused Jesus, the Creator Son of the local universe, with the Second Person of Deity, the Eternal Son of Paradise.

The Christian concept of the Trinity, which began to gain recognition near the close of the first century after Christ, was comprised of the Universal Father, the Creator Son of Nebadon, ( Jesus ) and the Divine Minister of Salvington--Mother Spirit ( Holy Ghost )of the local universe and creative consort of the Creator Son.

Not since the times of Jesus has the factual identity of the Paradise Trinity been known on Urantia (except by a few individuals to whom it was especially revealed) until its presentation in these revelatory disclosures. But though the Christian concept of the Trinity erred in fact, it was practically true with respect to spiritual relationships. Only in its philosophic implications and cosmological consequences did this concept suffer embarrassment: It has been difficult for many who are cosmic minded to believe that the Second Person of Deity, the second member of an infinite Trinity, once dwelt on Urantia; and while in spirit this is true, in actuality it is not a fact. The Michael Creators ( Jesus Christs )fully embody the divinity of the Eternal Son, but they are not the absolute personality.


[from The Urantia Book]
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P.S. Jesus CHRIST is A SON of God, an offspring between The Universal Father and The Eternal Son but he is God as well because he is the Creator of this PHYSICAL time-space creation in which we live.

Cheers
 
Jayhawker Soule

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Why not defer regurgitating your inane little cult snippets until after you explain your cult's obnoxious racial attitudes?
 
R

Ronald

Well-Known Member
Ceridwen018 said:
*raised eyebrows*

Ronald, do I even want to ask how you presume to know this?
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You will have to tell me that!

Of the Gospels, John writes on a different level, anyone should see that, as he starts his book " In the beginning/Berishis was the Torah/word, the Torahwas with God, the Torah was God. Already way out there, spiritual! The only one of the four speaking on the spiritual level/hidden meaning/SOD level of understanding. Then look at Revealations so far out pastors and ministers shy away from teaching from it.
The old time Hebrew Kabbalah, not the Maddonna Ka-bla-blah!
 
Christ Michael

Christ Michael

Member
Deut. 32.8 said:
Why not defer regurgitating your inane little cult snippets until after you explain your cult's obnoxious racial attitudes?
Click to expand...


I had already answered that question in the thread "Evil" thus:


Had you read the whole thing, and UNDERSTOOD it, you would see that it is more along the lines in my signature. If you have a problem with it I suggest you take it up with God !!! Good luck !!!!
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If you don't understand what I am insinuating please copy this post and take it to your grade 2 teacher and ask for an explanation !! In the mean time, if you have anything to add to this discussion about Jesus being God, please do, otherwise don't pollute this thread with your childlish remarks !!



Cheers
 
Linus

Linus

Well-Known Member
Why are we only going by John 1:1? I'm just curious. There are other passages that shed light on this subject. Why limit it with one passage? If there is a specific reason please let me know.
 
B

Bryan X

Member
Linus said:
Why are we only going by John 1:1? I'm just curious. There are other passages that shed light on this subject. Why limit it with one passage? If there is a specific reason please let me know.
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I said this in the beginning of my post:

Let's have a debate on those who believe that Christ is God and those who believe Christ is not God using John 1:1. You can use other verses as well but let's try to stick to John 1:1 as best we can.
Click to expand...
 
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dan

Well-Known Member
Linus said:
In that case what about John 10:30?

John 10:30 - I and My Father are one
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How about John 17? In His intercessory prayer Christ prays that all His followers become one, as He and the Father are one. Do you think He wants us all to morph into one giant uber-Christian? Christ and the Father are one in perfection, desire and will.

If I get a perfect score on a test and my buddy does too, does that mean our scores (being the same in every way) are of the same essence? Are they the same score, two uncreates yet one uncreate? Two incomprehensibles and yet one incomprehensible? Does only one of us get a grade because we must share the score, being only one score?

This is the Nicean litany that leads to the esoteric jumble of vernacular that is the Catholic idea of the Trinity.
 
Scott1

Scott1

Well-Known Member
Hiya Bryan X,

Bryan X said:
Let's have a discussion on John 1:1, shall we? I know this verse(and lots others) is quoted to prove that Christ is God. Let's have a debate on those who believe that Christ is God and those who believe Christ is not God using John 1:1. You can use other verses as well but let's try to stick to John 1:1 as best we can. I know it's only decent if I break the ice first, but I'd like someone to do the head start instead.
Click to expand...
Well, I know you would like to stick with just John 1:1, but that's kinda a silly objective. The divinity of Christ, or most things for that matter, can not be "defined" by using one verse in or out of context.

As far as Scripture clearly showing the divinity of Christ, there are several ways to "prove" it. For example:

Old and New Testament Parallels of God the Father and God the Son:
Exodus 3:14 - God says "I AM who I AM" - John 8:58 - Jesus says "Before Abraham was, I AM" in reference to Himself.
Deut. 4:2; 12:32 - the Lord God commands that we not add or take away from His word - Rev. 22:18-19 - Jesus so commands us not to add or take away from His word.

Deut. 32:39; 1 Sam. 2:6 - the Lord kills and makes alive again and raises up - John 5:21 - the Son raises and gives life.

Deut. 32:39 - neither is there any that can deliver out of God's hand - John 10:28 - nor shall any pluck out of Jesus' hand.

Deut. 32:43 - rejoice, ye heavens, with Him, and let all the angels of God worship Him - Heb. 1:6 - the "Him" is Jesus the Son.

2 Sam. 22:3 - God is the horn of salvation - Luke 1:68-69 - Jesus is the horn of salvation.

Jesus Christ Claims to be God
John 10:30 - Jesus says, "I and the Father are one." They are equal. The Jews even claimed Jesus made Himself equal to God. Jesus' statement in John 14:28, "the Father is greater than I," cannot contradict John 10:30 (the Word of God is never in conflict). Jesus' statement in John 14:28 simply refers to His human messianic role as servant and slave, which He, and not the Father or the Holy Spirit, undertook in the flesh.
John 10:36 - again, Jesus claims that He is "the Son of God."

John 10:38; 14:10 - "the Father is in me and I am in the Father" means the Father and Son are equal.

John 12:45 - Jesus says, "He who sees Me sees Him who sent Me." God the Father is equal to God the Son.


And so on and so on..............

dan said:
If I get a perfect score on a test and my buddy does too, does that mean our scores (being the same in every way) are of the same essence?
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Hoo boy, dan...... you gotta explain to me how someone can be PART-God....

Peace,
Scott
 
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