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Why christians believe that jesus is God?

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
John 8:58 Jesus said tho them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

From Old testament scripture, the words "I AM" refer to the name of God Himself.

Exodus 3:14 And God said untio Moses, I AM THAT I AM; and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

John 14:8,9...He who has seen Me has seen the Father...
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Also see John 5:23,24 8:19 14:1 1:1
Also, Jesus accepted worship and told people their sins were forgiven, only God can accept worship, and forgive sins. The disciples always told ppl NOT to worship them, but to worship God. Throughout the new testament he is called God;
Romans 9:5 ...Christ came, who is overall, the eternally blessed God, Amen.
Hebrew 1:8 But to the Son He says; 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever...
Colossians 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

There is so much more in the new testament that shows Jesus is God, this is just a tiny bit. One more verse, I quoted back a bit;

Mathew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a SON, and they shall call his name EMMANUEL, which being interpreted is, GOD with us.
 

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
The Truth said:
* The indispensable "VIRGIN" in the above verse has now been replaced in the RSV with the phrase "a young woman," which is the correct translation of the Hebrew word almah. Almah is the word which has occurred all along in the Hebrew text and NOT bethulah which means VIRGIN. This correction is only to be found in the English language translation, as the RSV is only published in this tongue. For the African and the Afrikaner, the Arab and the Zulu, in fact, in the 1 500 other languages of the world, Christians are made to continue to swallow the misnomer "VIRGIN."
You concentrate on the word, virgin, missing the point of the verse, It said she will bring forth a SON and they will call him EMMANUEL which means GOD with us.

Speaking of virgin, I have heard all the arguements, but let me ask, How can a young woman conceiving a baby be a SIGN from God?? It happens every day!!!

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a SIGN; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Luke 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin' name was Mary.

Luke 1:34 THen said mary unto the angel, How shall this be, SEEING I KNOW NOT A MAN? (to "know' someone throughout the bible means SEX!)
 

may

Well-Known Member
IacobPersul said:
May,

I'm afraid I still don't get it. All the Bible quotes in the world are not going to clear up a logical contradiction. I can logically, as well as scripturally, argue why Christ was both fully Man and fully God and why He had to be so to effect our salvation. You seem only to be able to rely on scriptural arguments.

James
I am very glad to hear you say that i am only sticking to the bible for my answers .as my belief as one of JW is based solely on the bible as the pure word of God ,i do not base my beliefs on any manmade doctrines
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
may said:
I am very glad to hear you say that i am only sticking to the bible for my answers .as my belief as one of JW is based solely on the bible as the pure word of God ,i do not base my beliefs on any manmade doctrines
That is not what I said at all. You appear to be reading what you would most like to see into my answer. What I said was, that your premises lead to a seeming logical absurdity but when I ask you for an explanation all you can provide are Biblical quotes that (according to your interpretation) support your premises, rather than trying to explain how these premises lead logically to your conclusion.

In actual fact I said almost the exact opposite of what you claim I did, as I quite clearly stated in one of my posts that even your premises only make sense if, for the sake of argument, I accept the JW tradition of interpretation. This tradition is indeed a manmade doctrine and one which is certainly not obvious from the text of the Scriptures that you claim to follow solely.

James
 

may

Well-Known Member
Ahmadi said:
Can you explain more about Elijah being alive after his "ascension". Can you please rewrite the quotation of 2 CH 21:12-15? I don't know what it refers to.
Also, you still haven't answered my question about the prophecy regarding the return of Elijah. How was that prophecy fulfilled? Or, what do you understand of the prophecy?

Eventually there came a writing to him from E·li´jah the prophet, saying: "This is what Jehovah the God of David your forefather has said, ‘Due to the fact that you have not walked in the ways of Je·hosh´a·phat your father or in the ways of A´sa the king of Judah .....i was just making the point that he did not die earlier, as it mentions him writing a letter 2 chronicals 21;12only some say he died when he was taken up , but here later he is still alive .


















(2 Kings 2:1) And it came about that when Jehovah was to take E·li´jah in a windstorm up to the heavens, E·li´jah and E·li´sha proceeded to go from Gil´gal.










(2 Kings 2:11) And it came about that as they were walking along, speaking as they walked, why, look! a fiery war chariot and fiery horses, and they proceeded to make a separation between them both; and E·li´jah went ascending in the windstorm to the heavens.......
At 2 Kings 2:11, 12 the prophet Elijah is described as "ascending in the windstorm to the heavens." The heavens here referred to are the atmospheric heavens in which windstorms occur, not the spiritual heavens of God’s presence. Elijah did not die at the time of such ascension, but he continued to live for a number of years after his heavenly transportation away from his successor Elisha. Nor did Elijah upon death ascend to the spiritual heavens, since Jesus, while on earth, clearly stated that "no man has ascended into heaven." (Joh 3:13


sorry not sure about the prophecy that you mentioned i maybe on the wrong track but did not John the baptist act like Elijah clearing up the way before Jesus came

 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
joeboonda said:
Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a SIGN; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
* the word Immanuel means God by itself or you assumed it means God because christians claims that Jesus is God?

If it means God so is there any root for this word?
 

Ahmadi

Member
may said:



(2 Kings 2:1) And it came about that when Jehovah was to take E·li´jah in a windstorm up to the heavens, E·li´jah and E·li´sha proceeded to go from Gil´gal.​
(2 Kings 2:11) And it came about that as they were walking along, speaking as they walked, why, look! a fiery war chariot and fiery horses, and they proceeded to make a separation between them both; and E·li´jah went ascending in the windstorm to the heavens.......​

At 2 Kings 2:11, 12 the prophet Elijah is described as "ascending in the windstorm to the heavens." The heavens here referred to are the atmospheric heavens in which windstorms occur, not the spiritual heavens of God’s presence. Elijah did not die at the time of such ascension, but he continued to live for a number of years after his heavenly transportation away from his successor Elisha. Nor did Elijah upon death ascend to the spiritual heavens, since Jesus, while on earth, clearly stated that "no man has ascended into heaven." (Joh 3:13)

So, the ascension of Elijah to the heavens is different from the ascension of Jesus (as) to the heavens... okay? Now I am really confused. One ascension is being taken literally and the other is metaphorical?

Since you are trying to prove that Elijah was alive after the "ascension", I can also prove that Jesus (as) was alive after the "ascension". In fact, there is a lot of historical evidence for that.

sorry not sure about the prophecy that you mentioned i maybe on the wrong track but did not John the baptist act like Elijah clearing up the way before Jesus came.
Did John the Baptist ever claim that he is Elijah?
 

Ahmadi

Member
IacobPersul said:
By taking on our humanity Christ divinised human nature restoring us to our relationship with God and, by His death and Resurrection he vanquished death destroying its hold over man.
Thanks for the detailed reply.:)

However, I've got to admit that there alot of things that I totally disagree with. And to explain the historial arguments, I have a lot of problem with the 'death and resurrection' of Jesus Christ (as). What solid proof exists for his death? There seems to be a lot of historical arguments that suggest that he did not die at all. Since this is getting off topic, can you explain this in more detail in the following thread: Jesus and Islam: A new perspective

Secondly, what is your viewpoint on the prophecy of Elijah - did he really ascend to heaven? If yes, isn't that similar to the ascension of Jesus Christ (as) to heaven, thus, giving birth to the orthodox beliefs?
 

Ahmadi

Member
joeboonda said:
John 8:58 Jesus said tho them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

From Old testament scripture, the words "I AM" refer to the name of God Himself.

Exodus 3:14 And God said untio Moses, I AM THAT I AM; and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

John 14:8,9...He who has seen Me has seen the Father...
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Also see John 5:23,24 8:19 14:1 1:1
Also, Jesus accepted worship and told people their sins were forgiven, only God can accept worship, and forgive sins. The disciples always told ppl NOT to worship them, but to worship God. Throughout the new testament he is called God;
Romans 9:5 ...Christ came, who is overall, the eternally blessed God, Amen.
Hebrew 1:8 But to the Son He says; 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever...
Colossians 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
From what I see is that the above verses are susceptible to different interpretations and even different translations. For instance, "I am my Father are one" is similar to many statements that have been made by many a saint in Islamic history who have said: "I am God". Such statements were always metaphorical and they mean that those saints have actually reached a very high status in spirituality that they have a very strong bond with God. Anyhow, is there a statement where Jesus clearly says, "I am God" -- oh, and I don't want third person statements or statements that can be interpreted in different ways. Is there a statement where Jesus (as) actually says, "I am God and you should wordhip me". Thanks for your help.
 

may

Well-Known Member
Ahmadi said:
So, the ascension of Elijah to the heavens is different from the ascension of Jesus (as) to the heavens... okay? Now I am really confused. One ascension is being taken literally and the other is metaphorical?

Since you are trying to prove that Elijah was alive after the "ascension", I can also prove that Jesus (as) was alive after the "ascension". In fact, there is a lot of historical evidence for that.


Did John the Baptist ever claim that he is Elijah?
i am not trying to prove that Elijah was alive after the ascension ,but i am only seeing what the bible says, also the bible tells us, that Jesus did go to heaven ,as the bible tells us that he was in heaven at Gods right hand

(Acts 7:56) and he said: "Look! I behold the heavens opened up and the Son of man standing at God’s right hand


(Ephesians 1:20) with which he has operated in the case of the Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places,


(Colossians 3:1) If, however, YOU were raised up with the Christ, go on seeking the things above, where the Christ is seated at the right hand of God.

(Hebrews 1:3) He is the reflection of [his] glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power; and after he had made a purification for our sins he sat down on the right hand of the Majesty in lofty places.​



(Hebrews 10:12) But this [man] offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God

(Hebrews 12:2) as we look intently at the Chief Agent and Perfecter of our faith, Jesus. For the joy that was set before him he endured a torture stake, despising shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God


(1 Peter 3:22) He is at God’s right hand, for he went his way to heaven; and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him .............so the bible informs us that Jesus was at Gods side ...........

 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
joeboonda said:
You concentrate on the word, virgin, missing the point of the verse, It said she will bring forth a SON and they will call him EMMANUEL which means GOD with us.

Speaking of virgin, I have heard all the arguements, but let me ask, How can a young woman conceiving a baby be a SIGN from God?? It happens every day!!!

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a SIGN; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Luke 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin' name was Mary.

Luke 1:34 THen said mary unto the angel, How shall this be, SEEING I KNOW NOT A MAN? (to "know' someone throughout the bible means SEX!)
Good points, joeboonda.
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
Ahmadi said:
Secondly, what is your viewpoint on the prophecy of Elijah - did he really ascend to heaven? If yes, isn't that similar to the ascension of Jesus Christ (as) to heaven, thus, giving birth to the orthodox beliefs?
Yes, Elijah really ascended to heaven, but as he didn't die and wasn't resurrected, I don't see the similarity with Christ's ascension. Do you think you could explain what it is you see as being similar?

James
 

Ahmadi

Member
may said:
i am not trying to prove that Elijah was alive after the ascension ,but i am only seeing what the bible says, also the bible tells us, that Jesus did go to heaven ,as the bible tells us that he was in heaven at Gods right hand


(Acts 7:56) and he said: "Look! I behold the heavens opened up and the Son of man standing at God’s right hand



(Ephesians 1:20) with which he has operated in the case of the Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places,


(Colossians 3:1) If, however, YOU were raised up with the Christ, go on seeking the things above, where the Christ is seated at the right hand of God.

(Hebrews 1:3) He is the reflection of [his] glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power; and after he had made a purification for our sins he sat down on the right hand of the Majesty in lofty places.​




(Hebrews 10:12) But this [man] offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God

(Hebrews 12:2) as we look intently at the Chief Agent and Perfecter of our faith, Jesus. For the joy that was set before him he endured a torture stake, despising shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God



(1 Peter 3:22) He is at God’s right hand, for he went his way to heaven; and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him .............so the bible informs us that Jesus was at Gods side ...........
The above verses are susceptible to different interpretations. However, you haven't answered my question regarding the fulfillment of the prophecy regarding Elijah. Who fulfilled that prophecy? How was it fulfilled?

IacobPersul said:
Yes, Elijah really ascended to heaven, but as he didn't die and wasn't resurrected, I don't see the similarity with Christ's ascension. Do you think you could explain what it is you see as being similar?

James
Isn't there a prophecy regarding the return of Elijah? Who fulfilled this prophecy and what's the evidence regarding the fulfillment of this prophecy?
 

may

Well-Known Member
Ahmadi said:
The above verses are susceptible to different interpretations. However, you haven't answered my question regarding the fulfillment of the prophecy regarding Elijah. Who fulfilled that prophecy? How was it fulfilled?

Isn't there a prophecy regarding the return of Elijah? Who fulfilled this prophecy and what's the evidence regarding the fulfillment of this prophecy?

Elijah foreshadowed John the Baptist, a forerunner of the Messiah. (Matthew 17:11-13)

 

glasgowchick

Gives Glory to God !!!
IacobPersul said:
Not yours, perhaps, but it seems pretty clear from mine.

James


Hi James, Jesus is God in my Bible too, he is also Lord of Lord, King of Kings He is my Lord God and saviour..AMEN... :D
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
Ahmadi said:
Isn't there a prophecy regarding the return of Elijah? Who fulfilled this prophecy and what's the evidence regarding the fulfillment of this prophecy?
Yes, there is a prophecy and no it hasn't yet been fulfilled in actuality. John the Baptist came in the ministry of Elijah foreshadowing Christ's coming but wasn't literally Elijah himself. Many Orthodox believe that Elijah will return to earth as one of the two witnesses of Revelations and fulfil the task of preparing for Christ's Second Coming, thus fulfilling the prophecy. This is not dogma, however, and we are free to believe or disbelieve in it (personally, I do). Still not sure what this has to do with Christ's divinity, though.

James
 

blueman

God's Warrior
The Christian belief that Jesus is part of the three-person God-head (God The Father, God The Son and God The Holy Spirit) is not anecdotal, but based on the fact that Jesus made reference to it Himself in the following scriptures:

Before Abraham was "I AM" (John 8:58)

I and My Father are one (John 10:30)

The Father has committed all judgement to the Son (John 5:22)

The Son of man is also the Lord of the Sabbath (Mark 2:28)

Therefore the religious leaders sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. (John 5:18)

"My Father has been working up until now and I have also been working" (John 5:17) :)
 

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
The Truth said:
* the word Immanuel means God by itself or you assumed it means God because christians claims that Jesus is God?

If it means God so is there any root for this word?
Not just used by early Christians, the word Emmanuel or Immanuel is found in the Old Testament also, so the Jewish people way before Christ and Christians used the word also, and it means God with us. But the many other verses along with these, that people have posted here, show that Jesus is God. Like water, comes in 3 forms, so does God, and, yes, it is difficult for us mere mortals to understand. To me, if a 'religion' claims to be Christian, yet their leaders or 'other' writings they hold higher than the Bible, make Jesus less than who the Bible claims him to be, is a false religion. PEACE!
 

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
Yes, many Christians think that PERHAPS, the 2 prophets during the great tribulation will be none other than Moses and Elijah, many can probably get into better detail about that than I can, its not been on my front burner actualy.:)
 

Ahmadi

Member
IacobPersul said:
Yes, there is a prophecy and no it hasn't yet been fulfilled in actuality. John the Baptist came in the ministry of Elijah foreshadowing Christ's coming but wasn't literally Elijah himself. Many Orthodox believe that Elijah will return to earth as one of the two witnesses of Revelations and fulfil the task of preparing for Christ's Second Coming, thus fulfilling the prophecy. This is not dogma, however, and we are free to believe or disbelieve in it (personally, I do). Still not sure what this has to do with Christ's divinity, though.

James
So the Orthodox belief says that Elijah ascended to heaven literally as well as Jesus and the only difference is that one died and resurrected and the other didn't. My only problem now is the verse Matthew 17:11-13. Can you shed some light on these verses?

Farhan
 
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