Paganism

Master Vigil · Jan 24, 2005

"The true purpose of magic is to mirror the self with the divine"

Do christians do this when they "love their neighbor, and forgive, and such"? Do Taoists do this when they let themselves be one with tao by flowing with the way of tao? Do Buddhists do this when they strive for enlightenment? Do Hindus do this when they strive for Moksha and unity with Brahma?

My point here is, do most religions do this but just don't call it Magick?

lilithu · Jan 24, 2005

hoomer said:
Thelema...eeesh....too many see the divine as soemthing I can "get something from"..its mine I want it....

Yes, that was my assessment of it too. I've looked into a lot a religions/practices and always found something lacking in each of them, but I also found something worthwhile in most of them. The only two religions that I just couldn't stomach were Satanism and Thelema. Rather than looking outward or towards the divine, they turn the focus inward - making people more self-centered than ever. But then, there is a brand of Buddhism that thinks one can get material goods from chanting mantras....talk about a perversion

hoomer said:
The true purpose of magic is to mirror the self with the divine.....the (al)chemical wedding..the great work..the making and consumptin of stilton( a fine cheese).......the coming togehter and working in HARMONY with other orders of life in order to unite the crown and the kingdom (qablah).....to escape samsara.....and to have sex on a golf course ike dave lister....

I love stilton! So in the end, you see unity with Ein Sof as the same as unity with Atman/Brahman? I have been grappling with this myself lately, whether they are saying the same thing.

hoomer said:
Paganism isnt just wicca....or just witch craft...may I humby point out.....

Yes, I realize that. But as I said, I did not feel that I could explore other pagan practices because I did not feel a cultural connection with them. When C1 talked of the Holly King and the Oak King, I thought that was beautiful, but not mine. Similarly, the Egyptian, Norse, etc pantheons are not mine. I looked into the Chinese pantheon (Hsi Wang Mu, etc), which is integrally connected with Taoism, but it didn't really do anything for me either. At the moment, my altar holds the bodhisattvas of wisdom (Manjushri), compassion (Avalokiteshvara), and power (Vajrapani) and the Buddha. I see a connection between them and the correspondences of intellect, emotion, will, and manifestation. But I am neither buddhist nor pagan... I am a mixed up mutt at this point and can no longer even identify where I got most of my ideas from...just grappling with my own way.

hoomer said:
Sadly yes I was being humourous about Well "I'm off to get naked....masturbate into a clay pot bury it in my garden under the light of the silver moon and gain much money from my magick........" But this is genuine magic(k) for some! and is a direct practice transcribed from a best selling author's book !!!(printed by Llewlyn)....to be fair..its not his ideas originally its Osman Spare ( I think??!!!) who kinda inveted chaos magic?!!!!...but he's another crowley breakaway whoever used this technique originally....
:bonk: go fig....

Yes, but that is the case with all religions - there are people who will focus on the external rituals and think that is religion and then there are people who delve deeper. They are both right in their own ways, I think. It depends on what one wants to get out of it.

hoomer said:
Summa Scientia Nihil Scire (the height of knowledge is to know nothing)

Thank you for explaining that.

A wise man seeks the Truth but only a fool finds it.

kreeden · Jan 24, 2005

Lilithu , I read LaVey's Satanic Bible back in '80 { ?? } . Yea , Mt. St, Helens erupted that year , right ? Anyway , I have to agree with you .

I read it on a plane from Halifax to Vancouver , and basicllay tossed it aside as I got off . I think that there are some truths in what he wrote , but like you , I don't like where it lead .

The reason for this post is that I kinda disagree with what you say about looking inward as opposed to looking inward ... to a degree . They say " Know thy Self ", and I believe that is the start to any Spirit journey .

Mmmm . Your words make me wonder about the balance of my own views . Strange how things like that work out at times . I think I have some reflection to do .

Thank you for your timely words , although they may not have been directed at me . Strange how that works at times .

lilithu · Jan 24, 2005

kreeden said:
The reason for this post is that I kinda disagree with what you say about looking inward as opposed to looking inward ... to a degree . They say " Know thy Self ", and I believe that is the start to any Spirit journey .

Hi kreeden, namaste.

I bet that we don't really disagree. It's a problem with the limitations of language. I completely agree that one needs to look inward - for self-reflection, self-cultivation. But the ultimate goal of self-reflection is imo to better reflect outward. For a theist, the question might be "how can I better relate to the Divine?" For a non-theist, the question might be "how can I better relate to my fellow man?"

The problem that I found with both Satanism and Thelema is that they encouraged an attitude of "how can I get the world to better reflect my own desires?" How can I manipulate people and objects to make things go my way? I appreciate that there is something empowering in that attitude, as opposed to feeling completely at the mercy of a capricious deity, but one can be empowered without being at war with the rest of creation.

-lilith

kreeden · Jan 24, 2005

Greetings Lilithu .

Yes , as I wrote , I realized that I agreed more with what you said , then disagreed . That is what I figure I have to reflect a little on , as I do appear to be on an inward Path right now . No big deal really , just wonder what I'm looking for in there . And where that is leading ...

I don't know anything about Thelema , but I agree with what you say about Satanism . It just isn't the Path that I want to follow . But then , I have found many that I didn't wish to follow .

hoomer · Jan 25, 2005

not sure to use this site yet fully!!

to master vigil
Do christians do this when they "love their neighbor, and forgive, and such"? Do Taoists do this when they let themselves be one with tao by flowing with the way of tao? Do Buddhists do this when they strive for enlightenment? Do Hindus do this when they strive for Moksha and unity with Brahma?

My point here is, do most religions do this but just don't call it Magick?

magic(I prefer without the K...I have a blindspot for Crowey...yes he was a genius...but in the end he died a penniless drug fiend and other things I coud mention...in essence his achemy was impure...example: have you ever actualy met a happy Themite??) is a very comon thing...mst human endevours are acts of magic.....Now if I define MAgic..I know it will cause arguments...lol......but here's 2

1. magic=controled use of imaginatin in order to create a matrix ofenergy (I think thats how my "teacher" defines it...lol)

2. magic= from the word Magister...to master...."to reach the highest spiritua potential of an initiated individual" ---william G Gray (hugey infuental...but sadly forgotten except for people in the know....Kabbalist...from England..)

So yes almost every human endevour is magic....painting a picture is magic..as it utilises the imagination and creates an outward manifestation.......

Of course many are flawed...it does take MANY lives to reach "perfection" (or as I prefer to "realise" perfection)

"without nipples breasts would be pointless"

--Ben

Master Vigil · Jan 25, 2005

I gotcha Hoomer. I thought as much, it's always a difference of terms. And Christians love to call magic evil, yet they do it every time they pray.

hoomer · Jan 25, 2005

So in the end, you see unity with Ein Sof as the same as unity with Atman/Brahman? I have been grappling with this myself lately, whether they are saying the same thing.
I think they are,,,,,..and perhaps the same as Nirvana???!!!....though I'm a bit dumb when it comes to Buddhism......

Chanting to get hwant you want..oh tsk...lol

For me Satanism.....I dnt know that much about Thema....I've sen thelmites online...they aren't pleasant beings...lo...but satanism to me is negation....negation of all else but the self.....to me this is nihiism...kinda...and the utimate concusion of denial..im...is suicide!!!

blessed are the cheesemakers

kreeden · Jan 26, 2005

Master Vigil said:
I gotcha Hoomer. I thought as much, it's always a difference of terms. And Christians love to call magic evil, yet they do it every time they pray.

There is a danger in defination Master V.. Although I agree that all of life , all of Nature is Magic , Christians do not . So , forcing our defination upon them is no different then they forcing their defination upon us , is it ?

Honey is the sweetness of Nature , but if you have an allergy ....

Master Vigil · Jan 26, 2005

I am not trying to force anything here. All I'm pointing out is a difference in terms. And it goes along with my "is religion a toy" theory, how we argue more on terms, and not what is behind the terms.

kreeden · Jan 26, 2005

Nor am I . I guess it was just your wording Master V.

Druidus · Jan 26, 2005

Lilithu, what kind of deities do you prefer to follow? Until yesterday, I had a patron and matron deity, Oghma (God of Wisdom) and Dannu (Goddess of Nature and Earth). Yesterday I added another patron deity in, Cernunnos, God of Animals and Woods. I don't worship all of the 33 (Although ever-changing, the number and the Gods) deities of the Druids, because I don't feel connected with them all, but I do respect them. According to my religion, I may be worshipping Gods that no longer exist anymore (They died, and were reincarnated into the Otherworld, although another God will fill the place at some point)! We believe in an omnipresent "Source", from which this universe came. The realms are the ashes of the Source (which is depicted as a fire), and the beings are the sparks. Eventually we can reach this Source, through reincarnation and by following the Triads. It is pure ecstacy, until we are sparked out into the realms again.

lilithu · Jan 27, 2005

Druidus said:
Lilithu, what kind of deities do you prefer to follow? Until yesterday, I had a patron and matron deity, Oghma (God of Wisdom) and Dannu (Goddess of Nature and Earth). Yesterday I added another patron deity in, Cernunnos, God of Animals and Woods. I don't worship all of the 33 (Although ever-changing, the number and the Gods) deities of the Druids, because I don't feel connected with them all, but I do respect them. According to my religion, I may be worshipping Gods that no longer exist anymore (They died, and were reincarnated into the Otherworld, although another God will fill the place at some point)! We believe in an omnipresent "Source", from which this universe came. The realms are the ashes of the Source (which is depicted as a fire), and the beings are the sparks. Eventually we can reach this Source, through reincarnation and by following the Triads. It is pure ecstacy, until we are sparked out into the realms again.

Hi Druidus, namaste.

I do not really follow any deities. I have always been monotheistic in my thinking. I think that the only deity that I follow is what you call the "Source" if your Source is the same as the Kabbalist's Ein Sof or the Hindu's Atman or the Buddhist's "unconditioned" or the Taoist's Tao. If you tell me that it's impossible for a human to relate to the "Source" directly, I would tend to agree with you. We either relate thru deities, devas, bodhisattvas, or we attribute finite qualities to what is infinite. That doesn't mean that I think these beings don't really exist. I don't know how to explain it except to say that I believe that polytheism and monotheism are both true and not true. The true nature of reality cannot be adequately described in words or fully comprehended by our either/or brains. Reality is paradox.

I do not really follow any deities, but if I answer truly which deities I honor in my home, I will sound like a complete new age nut job. oh well... I mentioned in another post that I have the bodhisattvas of wisdom (manjushri), compassion (avalokiteshvara), and power (vajrapani) on my altar, along with the Buddha. Mahayana buddhists believe that one must balance wisdom with compassion. One cultivates widsom by self-reflection, but that wisdom is meaningless unless it is then directed back outwards towards other living beings (compassion). Recently, I added Vajrapani to my altar, because I felt that wisdom and compassion still needed to be strengthened by will. I can know what to do; I can feel compassion for someone else's suffering. But sometimes, I still can't muster the will to do what needs to be done. That is where Vajrapani comes in. The Buddha is the perfect manifestation of all these "powers" (for lack of a better term).

I also have places reserved in my home for the Hindu deities Shiva, Kali, and Ganesh. A Christos (Christ in the Sermon on the Mount pose), an icon of the Holy Spirit as a fiery dove, and the blessed mother, Mary. And several Zuni fetishes - bear, bobcat, snake, and crow. A pentagram, a yin-yang, and an Om. As I said, new-age nut-job.

Some of the ideas that you wrote btw, at least on the surface, sound similar to Hinduism/some forms of Buddhism - deities that die and are reincarnated, everything in flux, but ultimately everything coming from Atman/Anatman, which is eternal, and Its divine spark existing in all beings.

Druidus · Jan 27, 2005

I too, have noticed a striking similarity between Druidry and several eastern religions, even though they didn't come into contact with each other. Perhaps they were on to something...

hoomer · Jan 28, 2005

Similarities in "reigions" are often cited as "they met"....could it be that they actual report what is there..instead?

Master Vigil · Jan 28, 2005

I agree Hoomer. Like I say with my "is religion like a toy" theory, they are all (well most) talking about the same thing. It is the differences that people put too much importance on. They don't realize the at the core, it is all the same. They all are reporting what is there, just a little differently.

ahunting · May 26, 2005

Ben,

You make a very good point!

hoomer said:
not sure to use this site yet fully!!

So yes almost every human endevour is magic....painting a picture is magic..as it utilises the imagination and creates an outward manifestation.......
-Ben

I was trying to think of a way to respond and you said it well. I think people practice magick all the time and don't even realize it. They would probably be offended if you said they were. When we practice magick, we are using energy to accomplish things.

Think about prayer. What is a prayer circle? Many people together praying for a common goal. Their energy flows around the circle. During my years of Christianity, I can't tell you how many times I heard about the power of prayer. The more prayers we have the more power it holds...and the like. What about the laying on of hands. Praying over someone who is ill. Yes, I know prayer is lifting your needs up to God. However, my belief of God is he/she/them expect you to also do for yourself. Sitting in a pile of poop saying "God, please help me get out of this pile of poop" is pointless. Also, repeating certain prayers such as the Lord's Prayer over and over is much like a spell. It is all so interconnected in my opinion.

Anyway...magick is energy, painting is magick, singing is magick, the power of positive thinking is energy and magick...see?

my .02

Amy

p.s. hope this didn't dabble in debate...lol :biglaugh:

ahunting · May 26, 2005

Dagnabbit! Master Vigil! Just saw your comment of prayer being magick! Hee Hee! That'll teach me to read all the posts before replying!

Amy ( I have so much to read here and so little time)

Master Vigil · May 26, 2005

ahunting said:
Dagnabbit! Master Vigil! Just saw your comment of prayer being magick! Hee Hee! That'll teach me to read all the posts before replying!

No problem.

Just make sure you have fun, thats all that matters. :jiggy:

EnhancedSpirit · Aug 23, 2005

ahunting said:
However, my belief of God is he/she/them expect you to also do for yourself.

I agree with you, here. When Moses was trapped in the desert, and asked that the sea be parted, God basically said, don't ask me, do it yourself,

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Genesis 14:15 And the LORD said unto Moses, Wherefore criest thou unto me? speak unto the children of Israel, that they go forward: [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]16 But lift thou up thy rod, and stretch out thine hand over the sea, and divide it: and the children of Israel shall go on dry ground through the midst of the sea. [/font]

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