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Christianity: Jesus in the Old Testament

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
It has been said that Jesus is in the OT concealed, and the NT revealed.

It has also been said that Jesus is on every page of the Bible.

How true are these statements? I submit these as examples:

  • Capitalization of Names
  1. Exodus 3:14 = And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM
  2. Psalm 68:4 = ...extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name JAH
  3. Psalm 83:18 = That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH
  4. Matthew 1:21 = And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shall call his name JESUS
Notice the capitalized names in the above verses? Coincidence or Design?

  • Tetragrammaton
  1. J = an extended, giving hand
  2. H = an enclosure such as Heaven or a window
  3. V = a nail
  4. H = an enclosure such as Heaven or a window
God reached His hand out of the windows of Heaven and we put a nail in it. Having taken our punishment for sin, He has returned to Heaven. Coincidence or Design?

  • The Boards of the Tabernacle
  1. Exodus 26:37 = And thou shalt make for the hanging five pillars of [acacia] wood, and overlay them with gold
  2. Isaiah 53:2 = For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
The acacia plant grows out of the desert floor, a root out of a dry ground. Thus the wood boards points to Jesus' humanity, while the gold overlay points to His deity. Coincidence or Design?

  • The Outer Fence of the Tabernacle
  1. Exodus 27:9-17 = 60 pillars as fence posts, 20x10, with silver hooks
  2. Exodus 30:13-15 = silver collected from half-shekels
Thus seen from a helicopter above, this outer fence with 60 half-shekel silver hooks points to 30 pieces of silver our Lord was betrayed for. Coincidence or Design?
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
AV1611 said:
It has been said that Jesus is in the OT concealed, and the NT revealed.
Not sure that you are going to get a lot of Christians to debate this with you..... but great post!
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Scott1 said:
Not sure that you are going to get a lot of Christians to debate this with you.....
Thank you, Scott. I quite agree. After the first few hours after I posted it, I already drew that conclusion. LOL
 

CMIYC

Member
AV1611 said:
It has been said that Jesus is in the OT concealed, and the NT revealed.

It has also been said that Jesus is on every page of the Bible.

How true are these statements? I submit these as examples:
  • Capitalization of Names
  1. Exodus 3:14 = And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM
  2. Psalm 68:4 = ...extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name JAH
  3. Psalm 83:18 = That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH
  4. Matthew 1:21 = And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shall call his name JESUS
Notice the capitalized names in the above verses? Coincidence or Design?
  • Tetragrammaton
  1. J = an extended, giving hand
  2. H = an enclosure such as Heaven or a window
  3. V = a nail
  4. H = an enclosure such as Heaven or a window
God reached His hand out of the windows of Heaven and we put a nail in it. Having taken our punishment for sin, He has returned to Heaven. Coincidence or Design?
  • The Boards of the Tabernacle
  1. Exodus 26:37 = And thou shalt make for the hanging five pillars of [acacia] wood, and overlay them with gold
  2. Isaiah 53:2 = For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
The acacia plant grows out of the desert floor, a root out of a dry ground. Thus the wood boards points to Jesus' humanity, while the gold overlay points to His deity. Coincidence or Design?
  • The Outer Fence of the Tabernacle
  1. Exodus 27:9-17 = 60 pillars as fence posts, 20x10, with silver hooks
  2. Exodus 30:13-15 = silver collected from half-shekels
Thus seen from a helicopter above, this outer fence with 60 half-shekel silver hooks points to 30 pieces of silver our Lord was betrayed for. Coincidence or Design?
Would I be able to use the same alpha in any other language and get the same result?
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
CMIYC said:
Would I be able to use the same alpha in any other language and get the same result?
Hi CMIYC

What do you mean?

Were you referring mainly to the Tetragrammaton?

If so, I only used the alphabet to make my point. In the Hebrew language, though, they have something we don't.

Each Hebrew letter is a pictograph, and if I could have typed the pictographic representation of the letters for JHVH, it would have been even clearer.

For instance, the letter V is a nail, and looks like one.
 

*Paul*

Jesus loves you
It's a pity this person is banned, they look like a knowledgable Christian, not easy to find here in my part of England.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
AV1611 said:
It has been said that Jesus is in the OT concealed, and the NT revealed.

That's a crude and meaningless nursery rhyme.

It has also been said that Jesus is on every page of the Bible.

I hope not.

are these statements?

Unfortunately, none of them are...

Capitalization of Names
1. Exodus 3:14 = And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM
2. Psalm 68:4 = ...extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name JAH
3. Psalm 83:18 = That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH
4. Matthew 1:21 = And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shall call his name JESUS
Notice the capitalized names in the above verses? Coincidence or Design?

It is by design, but only the design of the English translators. The Greek and Hebrew manuscripts do not have any capitalization. Capitalization is unknown in Hebrew, and in Greek the manuscripts are either in all caps or all lower-case.

· Tetragrammaton
1. J = an extended, giving hand
2. H = an enclosure such as Heaven or a window
3. V = a nail
4. H = an enclosure such as Heaven or a window
God reached His hand out of the windows of Heaven and we put a nail in it. Having taken our punishment for sin, He has returned to Heaven. Coincidence or Design?

This is just crude. There is nothing in the Tetragrammaton that warrants what you’ve done to it.


· The Boards of the Tabernacle
1. Exodus 26:37 = And thou shalt make for the hanging five pillars of [acacia] wood, and overlay them with gold
2. Isaiah 53:2 = For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.


The acacia plant grows out of the desert floor, a root out of a dry ground. Thus the wood boards points to Jesus' humanity, while the gold overlay points to His deity. Coincidence or Design?


It would be interesting if this interpretation could be sustained. Unfortunately, the modern location of Hebrew flora is more than a little imprecise. That is, determining exactly what species the Hebrew refers to is extremely difficult to locate. Even if the Hebrew refers to a plant that grows from a desert floor, it refers to a strong, attractive tree capable of being used for construction and not a meek and lowly reed. Thus, the connection between Ex 26.37 and Is 53.2 is more than a little problematic, not to mention the extreme weakness of either pointing to the deity or humanity of Jesus of Nazareth.

· The Outer Fence of the Tabernacle
1. Exodus 27:9-17 = 60 pillars as fence posts, 20x10, with silver hooks
2. Exodus 30:13-15 = silver collected from half-shekels
Thus seen from a helicopter above, this outer fence with 60 half-shekel silver hooks points to 30 pieces of silver our Lord was betrayed for. Coincidence or Design?

This example is completely worthless and nonsensical.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
AV1611 said:
Each Hebrew letter is a pictograph, and if I could have typed the pictographic representation of the letters for JHVH, it would have been even clearer.

For instance, the letter V is a nail, and looks like one.

That's not true...

Hebrew has an alphabet that can be transliterated into English letters - not pictures. For more, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew.

Here's a picture of what Hebrew looks like, from a 10th century codex of the Bible.

We can see, even if we can't read it, that all the letters (big blak things) are the same size. From left to right, the Hebrew can be transliterated into English letters

VIHI AHLI....

800px-Aleppo_codex.jpg


Citation - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Aleppo_codex.jpg
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
Here is a picture of an ancient New Testament document, showing the Greek in clear, all caps.

The eighth line from the top can be transliterated into English just like the Heberw above...

line 8 - EVANGELION = GOSPEL
line 9 - KATA IWNHN = ACCORDING TO JOHN

line 10 - EV ARKN HN O LOGOS KAI O LOGOS HN PROS TON THEON
= IN BEGINNING WAS THE WORD AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD
nte_bo75.jpg


Citation: Papyrus Bodmer P75 (ca. 190 p. Chr. n.): Lc 24,52/53; Ioh. 1,1 sqq.
http://www.fh-augsburg.de/~harsch/gr.../nte_kdpc.html

Transliteration and translation my own...
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
Does anyone still think that the OP has a shred of credibility?
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
angellous_evangellous said:
Does anyone still think that the OP has a shred of credibility?

Whew... I guess the silence is cause for celebration. : hamster :
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
angellous_evangellous said:
It is by design, but only the design of the English translators. The Greek and Hebrew manuscripts do not have any capitalization. Capitalization is unknown in Hebrew, and in Greek the manuscripts are either in all caps or all lower-case.

I do not base my faith on parlor observances of this nauture but I am interested in knowing this; do you not believe is is possible for God to allow for such observances knowing ahead of time that the original languages would be translated into English using the proper rules of grammar.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
sandy whitelinger said:
I do not base my faith on parlor observances of this nauture but I am interested in knowing this; do you not believe is is possible for God to allow for such observances knowing ahead of time that the original languages would be translated into English using the proper rules of grammar.

Anything is possible with God.

But arguing something with false evidence cannot be sustained by the possibility that God can do anything that God wants, so there is a possibility that the false evidence that has no relationship to reality (eg, the capitalization of Greek and Hebrew and the fantasy that Hebrew letters are pictographs) actually may have been planned by God only adds to the irresponsibility of the strategy at hand.

EDIT: Capitalization is meaningless.

In German, the first vulgar langauge that received a Bible translation, all nouns are capitalized. It's simply stupid to argue that God had any plan to reveal his son through capitalization of nouns or (in the case of English) pronouns.

Perhaps our language will evolve into some other system - no caps, all caps, all cursive, whatever.
 
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