Science&Logic-Flawed?

Ryan2065 · Aug 19, 2005

Av1611 said:
And that's exactly my point. Science cannot prove it. Welcome to my world now, Ryan.

No no, you misunderstand me Av1611. Prove to me that the actual EVENT happened. I don't care if 1000 ghosts came to your house and started doing the limbo with you. Prove to me that the actual event happened that cannot be explained. This should be easy =) Like lets say I thought JFK's assasination had a spiritual cause. All I would have to do is say the JFK assasination happened (theres enough proof that this event happened) and then say what was spiritual about it.

Ok... ready... set... go! Give me an event!

michel · Aug 19, 2005

Fade said:
I say you may need to watch David Copperfield or David Blaine sometime.

Jesus is much more powerful; He did what He did --- without mirrors!

michel · Aug 19, 2005

Ryan2065 said:
No no, you misunderstand me Av1611. Prove to me that the actual EVENT happened. I don't care if 1000 ghosts came to your house and started doing the limbo with you. Prove to me that the actual event happened that cannot be explained. This should be easy =) Like lets say I thought JFK's assasination had a spiritual cause. All I would have to do is say the JFK assasination happened (theres enough proof that this event happened) and then say what was spiritual about it.

Ok... ready... set... go! Give me an event!

Well, seeing as the event I mentioned happened approx. 1,975 years ago ... and taking into account that the participants in the event are not physically here ... and the fact that it was a miracle ... I would venture to say that Science is just going to have to get in the back of the bus on this one.

Same thing with Columbus discovering America. How do you prove that? Albeit, that was not a spiritual event per se.

JerryL · Aug 19, 2005

Science is what we humans use as a way of learning about the world, even the universe around us using methods based upon logic.

I don't agree. Logic is a name for neccessairy rationality. If you prefer, logic is a presupposed state; though we cannot discuss altrenatives as discussions require logic.

The problem is, logic, and therefore science, has at least one glaring flaw that i cannot get around(maybe someone can prove me wrong so I can sleep better at night). If you see a cat, logically you know that the cat must have been born, and that it must die as well.

I don't logically know these things at all.

It's accurate to say that logic tells you basically nothing about reality. What logic does is allow you to get from point A to point B.

IF all cats are born AND
IF all cats die AND
IF I am seeing a cat:
THENThe cat I'm seeing was born and will die.

Logic did not give you those "if"s, it just moved you to the THEN.

So if we look at the universe, it must have come from somewhere, and there must be an end.

IF all universes must come from somewhere AND
IF all universes must end:
THEN This universe must have come from somewhere and must end

How can you support your IFs?

a) Everything cannot have a beginning, there must be something that has existed, and always will, which flies in the face of everything I know about science and logic.

b) Everything must have a beginning, which flies in the face of everything I know about science and logic.

This is an argument of causality and teporality. I don't know if everything had a beginning or not. I'm not even sure what "everything" encompases. Are you familiar with Hawkings and borderless time?

Either way, science and logic have a major flaw, so since both A and B are equally impossible, we are in a sort of quandry arn't we.

Your precepts "Everything has a beginning" and "not everything has a beginning" are pradoxical, so logic tells us at least one must be wrong. Since they are the positive and negative of the same claim (as I've phrased them), I'll imagine one is right.

Of course, they are terribly undefined as well.

Jayhawker Soule · Aug 19, 2005

AV1611 said:
Well, seeing as the event I mentioned happened approx. 1,975 years ago .... I would venture to say that Science is just going to have to get in the back of the bus on this one.

Unless it's fable.

michel · Aug 19, 2005

Deut. 32.8 said:
Unless it's fable.

Fade, believe me, one of these day you are going to know for sure. It's just a matter of time. I hope and sincerely pray that by the time that time comes, you'll already know the difference.

michel · Aug 19, 2005

AV1611 said:
Fade, believe me, one of these day you are going to know for sure. It's just a matter of time. I hope and sincerely pray that by the time that time comes, you'll already know the difference.

Oops! I should have addressed Deut on this one --- but ditto for Fade --- as well as myself, also.

Jayhawker Soule · Aug 19, 2005

AV1611 said:
Oops! I should have addressed Deut on this one --- but ditto for Fade --- as well as myself, also.

No problem. There remains no reason to view the whole thing as little more than fable, perhaps inspired by Job 9:8.

michel · Aug 19, 2005

Deut. 32.8 said:
No problem. There remains no reason to view the whole thing as little more than fable, perhaps inspired by Job 9:8.

Deut, that verse you gave me, I love it. Here it is:

Job 9:8 = WHICH ALONE SPREADETH OUT THE HEAVENS...

Did you know that scientists "just recently" found out that the universe is expanding? Yet this was written circa 1520 bc!

JerryL · Aug 19, 2005

Deut, that verse you gave me, I love it. Here it is:

Job 9:8 = WHICH ALONE SPREADETH OUT THE HEAVENS...

Did you know that scientists "just recently" found out that the universe is expanding? Yet this was written circa 1520 bc!

You are misinterpreting the verse. The Frimament (heavens) was believed to be a layer which kept the water above seperate from the waters below. The word (Raquia) transleates to a "hammered out expanse". This was coppon mythology in the region at the time.

When he spreads out the heavens, the Bible does not mean "he causes the heavens to continually expand", it means that he hammered the firmament up there, causing a space between the waters (much like spreading a tablecloth).

In fact, you'llsee the tablecloth analogy repeated in Revelations.

What does this have to do with logic?

michel · Aug 19, 2005

JerryL said:
You are misinterpreting the verse. The Frimament (heavens) was believed to be a layer which kept the water above seperate from the waters below. The word (Raquia) transleates to a "hammered out expanse". This was coppon mythology in the region at the time.

When he spreads out the heavens, the Bible does not mean "he causes the heavens to continually expand", it means that he hammered the firmament up there, causing a space between the waters (much like spreading a tablecloth).

In fact, you'llsee the tablecloth analogy repeated in Revelations.

What does this have to do with logic?

You're confusing FIRMAMENT with HEAVENS. Job said He SPREADETH OUT THE HEAVENS, which is a reference to the Universe, not the Water Canopy.

Jayhawker Soule · Aug 19, 2005

AV1611 said:
Did you know that scientists "just recently" found out that the universe is expanding? Yet this was written circa 1520 bc!

Oh, my! :biglaugh:

Unfortunately for you, Job is employing the same imagery found in Isaiah 40:22. If you want to read inflationary cosmology into it, be my guess. You might even try convincing yourself that Isaiah's "curtain" is none other than a P-Brane of M-Theory, but the argument is more worthy of laughter than serious consideration.

Ryan2065 · Aug 19, 2005

AV1611 said:
Well, seeing as the event I mentioned happened approx. 1,975 years ago ... and taking into account that the participants in the event are not physically here ... and the fact that it was a miracle ... I would venture to say that Science is just going to have to get in the back of the bus on this one.

Same thing with Columbus discovering America. How do you prove that? Albeit, that was not a spiritual event per se.

How about this, prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the event happened. And millionth eye witness accounts don't really count.

You can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that columbus discovered america. You cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Jesus walked on water. Come on, all you have to do is fine me 1 event that happened that is spiritual in nature and that there is no way science can explain or prove why it happened.

And I'll give you a hint. Any event that you give should be believed to have happened by someone who has nothing to lose by it being wrong. If Jesus never walked on water and never performed any miracles, then I'd say all the Christians would look like fools and would have something to lose. =)

michel · Aug 19, 2005

Ryan2065 said:
How about this, prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the event happened. And millionth eye witness accounts don't really count.

You can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that columbus discovered america. You cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Jesus walked on water.

There's no way I can, Ryan --- not to you --- but I tried!

Jayhawker Soule · Aug 19, 2005

Ryan2065 said:
How about this, prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the event happened. And millionth eye witness accounts don't really count.

Don't get carried away. They sure as hell should count for something. :banghead3

JerryL · Aug 19, 2005

You're confusing FIRMAMENT with HEAVENS. Job said He SPREADETH OUT THE HEAVENS, which is a reference to the Universe, not the Water Canopy.

No, I'm not.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?new=1&word=Job+9%3A8&section=0&version=nsn&language=en

The word used is "Shamayim", which is translated alternately by theologians as "sky" or "heaven"

Genesis 1:7-8
[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]

God made the expanse [Raqiya`], and separated the waters which were below * the expanse from the waters which were above * the expanse; and it was so.

[/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]

God called the expanse [Raqiya`] heaven [Shamayim]. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

[/font]
As you can see, in Job, not only does the Bible refer to an expanse, but it actually refers to it by given name (Shamayim), which was given to the expanse which seperates the waters above from the waters below.

Ryan2065 · Aug 19, 2005

AV1611 said:
There's no way I can, Ryan --- not to you --- but I tried!

So is it safe to say that the only spiritual events that you think have happened are in the bible? Because I am just looking for spiritual events that have happened that are not in the bible... Come on, this shouldn't be too hard...

Snowbear · Aug 19, 2005

I realize you aren't talking to me, but I wanna answer anyhow

Ryan2065 said:
So is it safe to say that the only spiritual events that you think have happened are in the bible?

I don't think so. Spiritual events happen all the time all over the world. Some of them even make the news... Like This one

Ryan2065 · Aug 19, 2005

Snowbear said:
I don't think so. Spiritual events happen all the time all over the world. Some of them even make the news... Like This one

I read that article... for one its on a christian website and for two they apparently have it on video, but when i plugged in where this happened and the date in google, i found nothing.

Ceridwen018 · Aug 19, 2005

There's no way I can, Ryan --- not to you --- but I tried!

AV1611,

You've said this sort of thing to many people so far. Have you ever thought that problem is not with Ryan "not accepting" what you say, but that what you say is simply unacceptable?

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