What does the Bible say about Slavery?

waitasec · Sep 4, 2010

who is jc talking to in matthew 22:39?
the sadducees and the pharisees, right?

i was originally trying to point out how jc NEVER speaks out against slavery
you brought up the golden rule...i then i pointed out the golden rule was intended for
"any member of the hebrew nation and commonwealth"
you are reading into the word "neighbor"
even the NIV cross references this passage to Leviticus 19:18

18 " 'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself "any member of the hebrew nation and commonwealth"

masters and slaves were not considered to be "neighbors"

and besides, the golden rule would not apply to non jews anyway...

Kathryn · Sep 4, 2010

Skwim said:
Interesting post, although I echo your "Sigh."

.

[QUOTE

My contention is that with such a variety of words available to denote a servant, as given above, there is no good reason to translate words such as "doulos"---that have as their only, or at least primary, definition, "slave"--- as "servant." And this I believe is corroborated by the fact that it's translation in some verses in some Bible versions as "servant" are few, whereas more often the word in those verses is translated as "slave."
][/quote]

Hmm. My research simply doesn't bear this out.

Doulos:
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]a slave, bondman, man of servile condition

1. a slave
2. metaph., one who gives himself up to another's will those whose service is used by Christ in extending and advancing his cause among men
3. devoted to another to the disregard of one's own interests
a servant, attendant

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]Translated Words[/FONT] [FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]KJV (127) - bond, 6; bondman, 1; servant, 120; NAS (141) - bond-servant, 11; bond-servants, 12; bondslave, 3; bondslaves, 8; both men and women, 8; servants, 1; slave, 58; slave's, 1; slaves, 39; [/FONT]

I'll let you go into each verse in both the KJV and the NAS and see if the word "slave" or "servant" is used. Then you can look at the context of each verse and see whether the usage bears out the 21st century idea of a slave, or the 1st century concept of servant, bondservant, attendant, indentured servant, etc. Have at it, but I can save you some trouble and let you know that the vast majority of the references use the word "servant," and their meanings are widely varied.

So I disagree with your assessment that "The Greek "doulos" is used most often - interchangeably between the two English words "slave" and "servant." While its translation as "servant" does happen, in most of the cases I've seen it only does so in a few specific versions of the Bible; moreover, most Bibles translate the term in these specific verses as "slave."

Source please. And let's stick with the most commonly used versions of the English bible, OK? That seems fair enough. The information I posted uses the KJV and the New American Standard.

And, as I pointed out in my previous post, those variations of "doulos" as well as "andrapodistēs" almost invariably, if not exclusively, mean "slave" in Greek. So their use in those verses that condone slavery, in the word's contemporary meaning, are quite legitimate

The problem with this statement is that the meaning of the Greek word "doulos" is NOT limited to our 21st century concept of the word "slave." See above.

Throw in the truth, as I illustrated earlier, that there are 8 other Greek words (not counting the variations of doulos) that are used to describe various forms of servitude, slavery, and types of personal attendants and members of households who were not family members, and you will see a very large and diverse meaning to the simple phrase "slave" or "servant" that people bandy about when discussing this issue.

waitasec · Sep 4, 2010

Kathryn said:
You looked up "your people," not "neighbor." Those can be two entirely different entities.

You are layering your own sociological any philosophical opinions on these definitions by the way.

We're discussing servants and slaves, right? Wouldn't they be living in the households and on the property of the master? That would place them, well - NEAR each other. In fact, virtually right on top of each other.

You're really stretching - which is why you're having such a hard time understanding the passages. Rather than accepting them for what they mean, you are trying to twist them to fit your own agenda. That's why it seems so difficult for you to understand.

Let me lay it out for you:

On several occasions Jesus told various groups and individuals that the greatest commandment at all was "Love God and love your neighbor as yourself" and "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

These groups consisted of a wide array of people - common people, leaders in the community, rich, poor, middle class. His message didn't change, depending on who He was addressing.

"neighbor" means simply "one living near you." It doesn't imply class, race, creed, etc. Those are YOUR issues, not Christ's.

By the way, here's a little tidbit about the word "others" (also translated as "people" in some English translations) as in "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

Matthew 7:12 --
12In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

The word here is (get ready for this):

anthrópos

Which simply means - humans.

TREAT HUMANS THE WAY YOU WANT TO BE TREATED.

I rest my case.

and who is jc talking to in matthew 7:12
the crowd of people who were the servants, the lowly ones in society NOT the rich rulers
of course "others" means humans, other humans that are with you right now in this crowd the ones that are listening to me standing beside you

Kathryn said:
I just gave you the verse where Jesus was speaking directly to the religious leaders of the day. They certainly were not slaves - they were the upper echelon of Jewish society.
.

that is when jc used the word neighbor "any member of the Hebrew nation and commonwealth"
however in the crowd jc is of course referring to the common people...

Kathryn · Sep 4, 2010

OTHERS, PEOPLE, HUMANS, NEIGHBORS - these are the entities that Jesus is talking to, and talking about. Cross reference the verses that contain the Golden Rule and you will see that these words are used interchangeably regardless of audience. There are about 8 different references and passages relating this NT teaching from Jesus to various people.

By the way, the household servants and attendants ARE the neighbors of the wealthy and powerful, and weren't even necessarily Jewish. I don't see where you are getting this idea that this word excludes anyone based on class or social status.

Skwim · Sep 4, 2010

Kathryn said:
I'll let you go into each verse in both the KJV and the NAS and see if the word "slave" or "servant" is used.

Already did enough of it in THIS post, where I cited the KJV, ASV, NIV, GNT, RSV, NLT, and CSB versions.

Source please. And let's stick with the most commonly used versions of the English bible, OK? That seems fair enough.

Sorry but I'm not familiar enough with the versions to know which are most commonly used. And what would popularity signify in this case?

The problem with this statement is that the meaning of the Greek word "doulos" is NOT limited to our 21st century concept of the word "slave." See above.

But assuming the translators wanted to convey the proper sense of the Greek word in the English, they would use the the term that best did just that.

Throw in the truth, as I illustrated earlier, that there are 8 other Greek words (not counting the variations of doulos) that are used to describe various forms of servitude, slavery, and types of personal attendants and members of households who were not family members, and you will see a very large and diverse meaning to the simple phrase "slave" or "servant" that people bandy about when discussing this issue.

But the quibble here isn't about those words that are pretty much limited to the concept of servant, but those that are used to denote a slave. And as I pointed out, with the abundance of "servant" words available to the Greeks, why bother using those that denote, or principally denote, a slave? Couple this with the fact that from what I can determine these Greek "slave" words, "doulos" etc., were translated as such in the majority of Bible versions.

waitasec · Sep 4, 2010

Kathryn;2147283 The Parable of the Good Samaritan [URL="http://bible.cc/luke/10-25.htm" said:
25[/URL]On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

26“What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

27He answered: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’c; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’d”

28“You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

29But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

30In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead.

31A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side.

32So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side.

33But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him.

34He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him.

35The next day he took out two silver coinse and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

36“Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

37The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”
Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”

By the way, Samaritans were despised by the Jews and generally treated as second class citizens. The example of a Samaritan helping a Jew was used to shame the Jewish leadership and the Samaritan was held up as an example of excellent character that these hypcritical leaders would do well to model.

since the samaritans were considered to be second-class citizens, wouldn’t the meaning of the word “neighbor” be more effective if it were the jew that helped the samaritan instead of the other way around?

the good samaritan story was a political move for jc because the jews and the samaritans were enemies. the good samaritan was a man of means since he was in a position to help the jewish victim. he acted in the neighborly fashion that was expected of him because they were both a part of the “hebrew nation and commonwealth” regardless if they were enemies or not.

This has no relevance to the meaning that slaves were considered to be the “neighbor” to their masters…
slaves were slaves, they were subordinate to their masters not their equal...

Twig pentagram · Sep 4, 2010

What do you mean," What does the baby say about slavery?" Oh **** my fault, that says bible.:sorry1:

Autodidact · Sep 7, 2010

Kathryn said:
Wow, you really need to read or re-read the Gospels. From Matthew 22:

The Greatest Commandment

34Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?
37Jesus replied: Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.b 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself.c 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.

Jesus was addressing the actions and attitudes of ALL believers - not just masters, not just servants - everyone.

The problem is the ambiguity of the word "neighbor." Remember, your slaves are not to come from your neighbors, but from foreigners.

Beaudreaux · Sep 8, 2010

Which Greek text have you chosen? ABS? Nestley? Why did you pick the one you chose?

What does the Bible say about Slavery?

waitasec

Veteran Member

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.

waitasec

Veteran Member

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.

Skwim

Veteran Member

waitasec

Veteran Member

Twig pentagram

High Priest

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank

Beaudreaux

Well-Known Member