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Clearing up Mormonism

joeboonda

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
Katzpur said:
I see. So now I'm supposed to thank you for calling me names
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I think I apologized for that?


No it doesn't. If you're talking about Revelation, it says that no one is to add to "this book." If you think "this book" refers to the Bible, you've got some explaining to do. The Bible didn't even exist when John recorded Revelation. "This book" was Revelation. God has never said He's through talking to us, joeboonda, and you can't give me one instance of where the Bible says He has.
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I still believe we have the completed cannon in the Holy Bible. Revelation is the last book, about the end of everything, and the warning to me is for not just that book, but all the Bible. I personaly don't dare add or take away one thing from the Bible. A criteria for authorship of the new testament was that you had to have known, or know someone who knew Jesus when he was on earth. I simply do not believe in ongoing revelation, we are in the end times, and we have all we need in the Bible.


I guess that Catholicism is a cult, too, then. Much of Catholic doctrine is based upon tradition. And since Catholics account for roughly half of the world's Christians, they must comprise the world's largest cult.
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As in any religion, I think if one trusts Christ alone for salvation, they are saved, My whole family was catholic at one time, and we consider it to be a false religion, but I won't list all the why's of that here.

Well, if I were to read the Bible alone, I could hardly begin to compare our additional scriptures to it, now could I?
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Nothing wrong with reading other books, but I won't give them the same authority as the Holy Bible, sorry.
 
joeboonda

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
Aqualung said:
We don't assume God added to the Bible. We assume men took away from the Bible. Have you ever read the Bible? Then surely you have come across all the references to scriptural works that haven't been found. Even the Bible admits that it is not complete. Obviously these works were important enough for whoever it was to mention them. The Bible is nowhere near complete, and to claim it is just shows a lack of knowledge about the subject.
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You assume. I read it everyday. name one scriptural work the Bible mentions that hasn't been found, and give me the verse. What verse says the Bible is not complete? And don't insult me by saying I have less knowledge, or ask me if I ever read it, It is my sole book for my religion.
 
joeboonda

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
Katzpur said:
joeboonda,

Stop trying to tell people what Mormons believe! You don't know what Mormons believe. You only know what you think Mormons believe. And keep your questions, if you have any, to one per post. Many of your statements about our beliefs are outright lies. Others of them are obvious distortions of what we really believe. I believe I was quite clear in my post #82 on this thread. Reread it if you've forgotten what I said.

Kathryn
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Got that information straight from my local Christian bookstore, thank-you.
 
joeboonda

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
Katzpur said:
I'll answer this tonight (I'm at work now) when I have some available resource material.


I'm sorry, I don't know what a "women's prayer/worship dress thingy" is. Could you possibly rephrase that?

By the way, in case you don't know, many Masons are Christians. Your statement applies that they're not.

Kathryn
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Sorry a Mormon took my book about that, my friend that used to be a Mormon said they were trained to do that. And yup, again, I consider Masonry a cult.
 
joeboonda

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
jonny said:
I have always found this argument fascinating. The bible was not the bible when its books were written. The books were brought together and cannonized much later. If you want to use this argument, you will have to consider that every book added to the book of Revelation is an addition to the bible.

Anyway, this morning while I was studying my scriptures, I read this and it reminded me of these arguments.

2 Nephi 29: 8 - "Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.

9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever."

I will never understand why the thought that God would actually reveal his gospel to people outside of the middle east makes so many Christians so angry. If God loves everyone, I believe that he would want to tell as many people as possible that they can be saved through the sacrifice of Christ.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ isn't a secret club, meant only for the lucky ones who were born at the right time in the right place. The gospel is for everyone who wants to accept Christ into their hearts.

I'm glad you have accepted Christ. I have also. Please don't question my faith in Christ or his ability to save me. I already have a judge and, seeing as he is perfect, I prefer to await His judgement.
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Jesus said to tell the world, its not a secret club, lol. And there are more reasons why I do not believe in ongoing revelation, but I dont have the time to go into it. PEACE!
 
joeboonda

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
Aqualung said:
Isn't the entire Bible based in the fact that God does give revelation to people? Why would he stop now, especially without telling anybody that he was going to stop?


If we can't become gods, how are we to be "joint heirs with Christ."(Rom 8:17 Why does he continually tell us "be ye therefore perfect, even as your father"(Matt 5:48) if there is no future for us after death? What are we striving for? Does it make God any less perfect if we can become like him? Does it some how devalue all that he has done for us? And it that vein, does him having been a man somehow make him any less perfect? or any less our God? No. He is still our one and only God, whether he was a man first, or whether we may become gods, too. It doesn't devalue him at all. He has been our God since the beginning of time. He has always been our God and always will be. That doesn't change.


How can you think Jesus is God. He continually prayed to his Father in heaven. How could he be God? That has always been one of the wierdest docrinal things I have ever heard. And let me tell you this. I only recently converted to Momonism. I grew up in the Lutheran, Baptist, JW, and Quaker church, and the Quaker church was the only one that taught that Jesus was God. If you beleive that Jesus was once a spirit, does that suddenly make all his miracles, or all his teachings, or all his modeling of behaviour, suddenly dissapear, or make it less than what it was, or in any way devalue it? No. How could it?
When you say "Adam-God" is that because you think that we think Adam is God? If so, that is one of the most rediculous things I have ever heard. We beleive no such thing.
I don't beleive that came down and physically had sex with Mary. All of the mormons I have discussed this with don't beleive it either. You're misinterpreting things, again.


"faith without works is dead" Why do you think that is even in the Bible if it's not true?
Even Jesus was baptized to "fulfill all righteousness." don't you think it's rather presumptuous of us to beleive that we don't need to be baptized, if even this perfect man needed to be baptized? And then why did Jesus always say "if you beleive and and are baptized" you would be saved? Why did he tell Nicademous "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Was he lying, yanking his chain, messing with his mind? If you don't think baptism is necessary, you need to reread the Bible.
1 Cor 15:29 speaks of baptism for the dead. Was Paul just making things up?


John 14:2 "in my Father's house are many mansions."
2 Cor 12:2 "such an one caught up to the third heaven"
1 Cor 15:40-ish is about the glories of the different heavens
People who actually reject Christ will certainly go to hell. But the majority of people, even now, accept him and his principles, even if they don't know who they are accepting. through the nudgings of the holy spirit, which they may or may not know is the holy spirit, they are choosing to live pretty close to what God wants from us. They will be saved. Just not in the highest degree possible.


Our revelations don't contradict the Bible.
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Er, I was not presenting the info as an arguement, I was just clarifying what I believe as one who follows only the Bible. But I will give 3 vereses about Jesus being God:

Mathew 1:23 Behold a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. v.10 He was in the world and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

I John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one.

I won't get into the whole baptism thing again, I have explained my views before.

In the world at that time, the 3 heavens were, 1 the earth's atmosphere, 2 the stars, and 3 heaven.

Anyway, I really don't want to argue these points, I was just stating the differences. Everything I stated, was at least at some point, Mormon doctrine.

Anyway, I'm done, there are books on all this, I'll keep reading and you do the same. PEACE!
 
H

huajiro

Well-Known Member
jonny said:
Mormons give 10% of their income to the church as a tithing. Many churches follow this same principle, although I don't know the exact amounts that people pay. I have done this my entire life and don't really see it as a lot of money.

We also give time to our church because we have a lay ministry. None of the local leaders are paid. For example, my father is a bishop, the leader of a local congregation (ward). He works at his normal job during the week, and a few nights a week and the weekend are spent serving as Bishop. This is a temporary assignment (usually five years). Our family has been blessed immensely during the time that my father has served as a Bishop and I see it as a wonderful opportunity to serve the Lord.

As for the last question, I don't know how much it costs to build a church. Because all of the church tithing funds are combined in a central location, the church is able to use its money very efficiently to build churches. I would assume that most of the tithing money comes from members in the United States, but that most of it is spent outside the United States. The church also does a lot of charity work. You can find information on the churches charities at http://www.providentliving.org/.
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http://www.acclaimimages.com/_gallery/_pages/0037-0501-1508-0504.html :

This is a Mormon church near where I live, it cost millions to build......my problem with that is millions could feed many people.....this to me is a complete waste.
 
J

jonny

Well-Known Member
joeboonda said:
You assume. I read it everyday. name one scriptural work the Bible mentions that hasn't been found, and give me the verse. What verse says the Bible is not complete? And don't insult me by saying I have less knowledge, or ask me if I ever read it, It is my sole book for my religion.
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Here is a list of books mentioned in the bible that are not contained in the bible.

http://www.fairlds.org/apol/bible/bible03.html
 
H

huajiro

Well-Known Member
jonny said:
This is a temple, not a church. There are only about 120 temples in the world and this is one of the more elaborate ones.
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That still doesn't make it a worthwile expense.....it even has real gold statues up top
 
joeboonda

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
Hey, all! Say, I just want you to know, speaking to Mormon's (and anyone), that I am not here to put you down, I respect your beliefs, and I don't feel like debating, at least at this moment. Just made some sausage biscuits, and I am SWEATING! lol. And I again apologize for the use of the word cult, false religion, etc for Masons, Mormons, Catholics, or anyone. If we in my religion consider another religion to be that, we will keep it to ourselves, I was being too open and honest stating my belief, without considering who may have been offended by it.

With that said, I was wondering, and just to learn, ok? But why do Mormon (women only I think), have Temple Garments? I asked a friend of mine who is an ex-Mormon, about the Masonic symbols in them. She actually had to go home and look at her mother's and saw the symbols. Another friend said they were the same symbols that can be found in wicca or the occult religions. Just wondered about all that, if someone could share? Thanks, and PEACE!
 
J

jonny

Well-Known Member
joeboonda said:
With that said, I was wondering, and just to learn, ok? But why do Mormon (women only I think), have Temple Garments? I asked a friend of mine who is an ex-Mormon, about the Masonic symbols in them. She actually had to go home and look at her mother's and saw the symbols. Another friend said they were the same symbols that can be found in wicca or the occult religions. Just wondered about all that, if someone could share? Thanks, and PEACE!
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LDS members (both male and female) wear temple garments after they have received their endowments in the temple. We consider them a reminder of important and sacred covenants that we have made with God. When discussing things like this with members of the church, please keep in mind that these are items that we regard as very sacred.

In an article from our church magazine, the symbolism of the garments was described in this way. "It is written that “the white garment symbolizes purity and helps assure modesty, respect for the attributes of God, and, to the degree it is honored, a token of what Paul regarded as taking upon one the whole armor of God (Eph. 6:13; cf. D&C 27:15). Garments bear several simple marks of orientation toward the gospel principles of obedience, truth, life, and discipleship in Christ.”"

Here is a link to the complete article. http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/temples/garments_asay.htm
 
Aqualung

Aqualung

Tasty
joeboonda said:
You assume. I read it everyday. name one scriptural work the Bible mentions that hasn't been found, and give me the verse. What verse says the Bible is not complete? And don't insult me by saying I have less knowledge, or ask me if I ever read it, It is my sole book for my religion.
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Ex 24:7 "took the book of the covenants" We don't have this book of covenants.
Num 21:14 "book fo the wars of the Lord." We don't have this book of wars. It's not Joshua or anything like that. Those came later.
Josh 10:13; 2 Sam 1:18 " book of Jasher"
1 Sam 10:25 "Samuel...wrote it in a book"
1 Kings 11:41 "book fo the acts of Solomon"
1 Chr 29:29 "book fo Samuel the seer
2 Chr 9:29 "book of Nathan the prophe"
12:25 "book of Shemaiah the prophet"
13:22 "acts of Abijah...in the story of te prophet Iddo
20:34 "book of Jehu"
33:19 "written among the sayings of the seers
Matt 2:23 "spoken by the prophet, He shall be a Nazarene" The prophets in teh Bible don't say that
1 Cor 5:9 "I wrote unto you in an epistle"
Eph 3:3 "as I wrote afore in few words"
Col 4:16 "read the epistle from Laodicea"
Jude 1:3 "when I gave all diligence to write unto you"
1:14 "enoch also ... prophesied of these."

These verses say the Bible is not complete. We are missing things important enough to be mentioned by different people, yet we don't have them anymore.

Edit: Sorry. I didn't see that jonny already answered this.
 
Aqualung

Aqualung

Tasty
joeboonda said:
Er, I was not presenting the info as an arguement, I was just clarifying what I believe as one who follows only the Bible. But I will give 3 vereses about Jesus being God:

Mathew 1:23 Behold a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. v.10 He was in the world and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

I John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one.
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Jesus is not God. He is our Lord, but he answers to someone else (the Father)

Anyway, I really don't want to argue these points, I was just stating the differences. Everything I stated, was at least at some point, Mormon doctrine.
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If you didn't want to argue them, why did you post them in a thread that was set up to argue them? Do you not want to argue them because you have nothing to argue? Why did you post something filled with untrue things if you didn't want to debate.
 
Katzpur

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
joeboonda said:
Got that information straight from my local Christian bookstore, thank-you.
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Well, that explains a lot. Let me ask you something, joeboonda. If a Muslim, who knew absolutely nothing about Christianity, were to want to get accurate information on Christian beliefs and practices, do you think he'd be likely to get a truly objective response from a Jew? If you, as a Christian, wanted to learn specifically about Lutheranism, do you believe that a Catholic would be your best source of information? Would you trust Judas to tell you the truth about the teachings of Jesus? Why do you believe then, that the enemies of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would provide you with the most accurate and objective information available on Mormonism? Have you ever even considered that the information found in "Christian" bookstores (probably on a shelf labeled "cults") may not be accurate?
 
Katzpur

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
joeboonda said:
I have studied Mormonism and want no part of it, thanks.
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I can totally understand your position. If I believed a fraction of what you believe about Mormonism, I wouldn't want any part of it either!
 
Katzpur

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
dorsk188 said:
A friend of mine that frequents the RF has brought up some points about the inaccuracies of some of my posts (the Joseph Smith wife story, as well as a few points I failed to research thoroughly) and has advised that I stop posting on this thread for several reasons. My earlier inaccuracies could be used to dismiss any claims I make in the future.
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Sounds like good advice to me. Maybe you'll be more careful in the future, huh?
 
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