Prophet Jesus (PBUH) Never Claimed Divinity

Islam432 said:

Green Kepi said:

well that's a good thing if you believe he's not God

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Okay...but...moon worship has been practiced in Arabia since 2000 BC. The crescent moon is the most common symbol of this pagan moon worship as far back as 2000 BC. Modern usage of the moon god symbol in Islam and Arab nations is a throw back to when the Arabs all worshiped the moon.

The moon god was also referred to as "al-ilah". When Muhammad came along, he dropped all references to the name "Hubal" but retained the generic "Allah". Hubal was the Lord of the Kabah, being the highest ranking god of the 360 gods worshiped in the Kabah.

Muhammad rejected all but one…now here is the amazing thing to me. Allah was also worshiped as the Lord of the Kabah. Yet, Allah was never represented by any idol of physical nature.

Does not the Koran condemn moon god worship? "Among His Sings are the Night and the Day, and the Sun and the Moon. Adore not the sun and the moon, but adore God, Who created them, if it is Him ye wish to serve." (Koran 41:37)

Where am I wrong?

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Green Kepi said:

Islam432 said:

"My own interpretation"...gee! Jesus here is teaching about sending the Holy Spirit....

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Actually when you read the verse it says "sprit of truth" not "holy sprit" and many christian scholars agree its referring to the a prophet to come

And yes your own interpretation because

you said

"nothing will disappear from the Law UNTIL everything is accomplished"...meaning His death on the Cross.

if it was true why was supposedly Jesus(pbuh) saying this when he was put on cross

'Eli Eli lama sabachthani - Oh God Oh God (my God my God) why did you forsake me' Mathew 27:46? its an only Hebrew quotation

If everything was accomplished why was he asking God , that have you forsaken me...does it sounds logical , you be the judge

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Islam432 said:

Green Kepi said:

Actually when you read the verse it says "sprit of truth" not "holy sprit" and many christian scholars agree its referring to the a prophet to come

And yes your own interpretation because

you said

"nothing will disappear from the Law UNTIL everything is accomplished"...meaning His death on the Cross.

if it was true why was supposedly Jesus(pbuh) saying this when he was put on cross

'Eli Eli lama sabachthani - Oh God Oh God (my God my God) why did you forsake me' Mathew 27:46? its an only Hebrew quotation

If everything was accomplished why was he asking God , that have you forsaken me...does it sounds logical , you be the judge

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Good question...I believe that was said by Jesus when He took all the sins upon Him - past, present, and future. God cannot look upon sin (Habakkuk 1:13). I think Jesus realized that God had for the first time...turned His back on Him...these sins caused a separation from God. This was the human side of Jesus coming out...in anguish He cried out.

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Green Kepi said:

Islam432 said:

Okay...but...moon worship has been practiced in Arabia since 2000 BC. The crescent moon is the most common symbol of this pagan moon worship as far back as 2000 BC. Modern usage of the moon god symbol in Islam and Arab nations is a throw back to when the Arabs all worshiped the moon.

The moon god was also referred to as "al-ilah". When Muhammad came along, he dropped all references to the name "Hubal" but retained the generic "Allah". Hubal was the Lord of the Kabah, being the highest ranking god of the 360 gods worshiped in the Kabah.

Muhammad rejected all but one…now here is the amazing thing to me. Allah was also worshiped as the Lord of the Kabah. Yet, Allah was never represented by any idol of physical nature.

Does not the Koran condemn moon god worship? "Among His Sings are the Night and the Day, and the Sun and the Moon. Adore not the sun and the moon, but adore God, Who created them, if it is Him ye wish to serve." (Koran 41:37)

Where am I wrong?

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Some non-Muslims have been bending over backwards to denigrate Islam in hatever way possible. Their attempt to attribute a pagan origin to Islam is a part of their whole scheme of maligning Islam by any means. To this end, they have claimed that the idol Hubal worshipped by the ancient pagans of Arabia was the same as 'the Allah of Muslims'. As a matter of fact, we have very little record of the pre-Islamic religion in Arabia. Whatever we know comes to us through isolated statements of Greek writers, poetical compilations of the old poets, and the few anecdotes and traditions embedded in later Islamic literature. Some information may also be gathered from polemical allusions in the Quran.
But whatever be the true nature of the pre-Islamic paganism, the one thing we know for certain is that it was Islam that dealt a death blow to it. Islam was able to wipe out from Arabia all traces of idolatry and pagan practices.
It must be clear to any sensible person that no religion has conducted such a relentless campaign against idolatry and paganism as Islam. And yet the missionary wants to depict Hubal as "the Lord of the Kabah". They allege that the crescent moon became a Muslim symbol because of its connection to "Hubal the Moon God".
According to Philip Hitti, the author of the well-known History of the Arabs, Hubal was a Moabite god known as Baal brought into Arabia:
The tradition in Ibn Hisham, which makes 'Amr ibn-Luhayy the importer of this idol from Moab or Mesopotamia, may have a kernel of truth in so far as it retains a memory of the Aramaic origin of the deity.At the conquest of Makkah by Muhammad, Hubal shared the lot of the other idols and was destroyed. (Quoted by Mohamad Elfie Nieshaem Juferi in his article on "Hubal in the Worship of Pre-Islamic Arab Consciousness" from Philip Hitti, History of the Arabs, p. 100, last accessed Sept. 1, 2008)
This means that a tribal god like Hubal could never have been elevated to the status of the One and Only Creator of the whole universe, Allah; but a god worshipped by the Moabites and later by the Quraish in Makkah. One may also note Hitti's statement that Hubal was destroyed once for all with the other idols at the conquest of Makkah.
It is noteworthy that the name Allah can be understood to be the same as Elah or Alah of the Hebrew Bible. The word for God in Genesis 1:1 is elohim, which is essentially a plural form of a more basic root-Hebrew word for God, eloh.
Furthermore, the Arabic translation of the Jewish Bible uses the name "Allah" to refer to God. Here is the transliteration of Genesis 1:1:
" Fee al-badi' khalaqa Allahu as-Samaawat wa al-Ard . . ." ( = In the beginning God (Allahu) created the heavens and the earth.) (Abu Iman Abd ar-Rahmn Robert Squires, The word "Allah in the Arabic Bible, last accessed Sept. 1, 2008)
The foregoing means that Allah is the One and Only God worshipped by the followers of Abraham, Moses and other Old Testament prophets.
It is true that a few Muslim countries — mostly non-Arab — have the crescent moon on their flags. But this has nothing to do with Islam. Indeed, the star and crescent symbol are very ancient, dating back to early Sumerian civilization. And long after the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him) the Ottomans adopted the crescent and the star into their battle standard; though it had nothing to do with Islam.
It should be noted that the twin sources of Islam — the Quran and the Sunnah — do not mention such a symbol; and the flag of the Prophet was a black and white one inscribed with "Nasrun min Allah," "With the help of Allah."
Since the Ottoman times, there has been the public perception that the star and crescent is a symbol of Islam and Muslims, and so it came to be used in decorative arts and Saracen architecture, jewelry, and so on. Hence, they can be seen on the top of mosque buildings in countries like India and Pakistan.
It should be emphasized that Islamic scholars do not approve of the use of the crescent moon and star or any such figure as a "symbol" of Islam. Islam has never adopted any symbol, and so there is no sense in Muslims adopting any such icon.
It was possible that the crescent was on top of the Kabah some 400 years before the Prophet, though there is no record except some people's dubious claim; but the question is whether the Prophet allowed its use; and the answer is emphatically, no.
Remember that the first thing the Prophet did on re-entering Makkah after the Hijrah (the Prophet's migration to Madiah), was to break all the idols in the Kabah, including that of Hubal.
We have indeed no evidence to say that Hubal was a moon god either.
Islam as taught by Prophet Muhammad has been consistently and strongly opposed to the use of all sorts of idols, icons and symbols that may lead the believers away from the worship of the One and Only God.

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Green Kepi said:

Islam432 said:

Good question...I believe that was said by Jesus when He took all the sins upon Him - past, present, and future. God cannot look upon sin (Habakkuk 1:13). I think Jesus realized that God had for the first time...turned His back on Him...these sins caused a separation from God. This was the human side of Jesus coming out...in anguish He cried out.

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can you prove it to me that what you are saying is true (quote bible) ...like i said many people assume things without any proof

(According to the Noble Quran and the original writings of the Disciples of Jesus, Jesus was not crucified, and he watched the crucifixion of the doomed person.Also, according to the Apocalypse of Peter that was discovered in Egypt, Jesus sat on the tree and watched the crucified one getting crucified. Peter witnessed this and wrote the Apocalypse. Not only that, but while Christians insist that the book is a Gnostic one, but according to Wikipedia.org, "It is unclear whether this text advocates an adoptionist (Jesus was Divine) or docetist (Jesus' body and crucifixion were an illusion) christology".
salm 91:8 testifies to the Truthfulness of the Apocalypse of Peter!

Psalm 91:8 You will only observe with your eyes and see the punishment of the wicked.​

So there is no proof that the book is Gnostic.)

The following Biblical verses that further refute the crucifixion and resurrection lies:
Being lifted and saved:
Luke 4:10-12
10 For the Scriptures say, ‘He will order his angels to protect and guard you.
11 And they will hold you up with their hands so you won’t even hurt your foot on a stone.’”
12 Jesus responded, “The Scriptures also say, ‘You must not test the Lord your God.’”
Matthew 4:5-10
5 Then the devil took him to the holy city, Jerusalem, to the highest point of the Temple,
6 and said, “If you are the Son of God, jump off! For the Scriptures say, ‘He will order his angels to protect you. And they will hold you up with their hands so you won’t even hurt your foot on a stone.’”
7 Jesus responded, “The Scriptures also say, ‘You must not test the Lord your God.’”
8 Next the devil took him to the peak of a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.
9 “I will give it all to you,” he said, “if you will kneel down and worship me.”
10 “Get out of here, Satan,” Jesus told him. “For the Scriptures say, ‘You must worship the Lord your God and serve only him.’”

There are few points to notice in these verses:
1- Notice how satan referred to Psalm 91 regarding the protection of Jesus.
2- Notice how Jesus confirmed that Psalm 91 was indeed speaking about him by saying "the Scriptures also say..." (Luke 4:12 and Matthew 4:7).
3- As we will see in the sections below, Psalm 91 is not just concerned with preventing Christ or the Messiah from striking his feet against the ground
If Jesus died on the cross and got buried, then his feet would've struck the ground and the stones on it from bringing him down, throwing him on the floor and burying him). 13 You will tread upon the lion and the cobra; you will trample the great lion and the serpent.
14 "Because he loves me," says the LORD, "I will rescue him; I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name.
15 He will call upon me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble, I will deliver him and honor him.
16 With long life will I satisfy him and show him my salvation."

(The Noble Quran, 4:156-159)"

"That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them.

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Islam432 said:

Green Kepi said:

Some non-Muslims have been bending over backwards to denigrate Islam in hatever way possible. Their attempt to attribute a pagan origin to Islam is a part of their whole scheme of maligning Islam by any means. To this end, they have claimed that the idol Hubal worshipped by the ancient pagans of Arabia was the same as 'the Allah of Muslims'. As a matter of fact, we have very little record of the pre-Islamic religion in Arabia. Whatever we know comes to us through isolated statements of Greek writers, poetical compilations of the old poets, and the few anecdotes and traditions embedded in later Islamic literature. Some information may also be gathered from polemical allusions in the Quran.
But whatever be the true nature of the pre-Islamic paganism, the one thing we know for certain is that it was Islam that dealt a death blow to it. Islam was able to wipe out from Arabia all traces of idolatry and pagan practices.
It must be clear to any sensible person that no religion has conducted such a relentless campaign against idolatry and paganism as Islam. And yet the missionary wants to depict Hubal as "the Lord of the Kabah". They allege that the crescent moon became a Muslim symbol because of its connection to "Hubal the Moon God".
According to Philip Hitti, the author of the well-known History of the Arabs, Hubal was a Moabite god known as Baal brought into Arabia:
The tradition in Ibn Hisham, which makes 'Amr ibn-Luhayy the importer of this idol from Moab or Mesopotamia, may have a kernel of truth in so far as it retains a memory of the Aramaic origin of the deity.At the conquest of Makkah by Muhammad, Hubal shared the lot of the other idols and was destroyed. (Quoted by Mohamad Elfie Nieshaem Juferi in his article on "Hubal in the Worship of Pre-Islamic Arab Consciousness" from Philip Hitti, History of the Arabs, p. 100, last accessed Sept. 1, 2008)
This means that a tribal god like Hubal could never have been elevated to the status of the One and Only Creator of the whole universe, Allah; but a god worshipped by the Moabites and later by the Quraish in Makkah. One may also note Hitti's statement that Hubal was destroyed once for all with the other idols at the conquest of Makkah.
It is noteworthy that the name Allah can be understood to be the same as Elah or Alah of the Hebrew Bible. The word for God in Genesis 1:1 is elohim, which is essentially a plural form of a more basic root-Hebrew word for God, eloh.
Furthermore, the Arabic translation of the Jewish Bible uses the name "Allah" to refer to God. Here is the transliteration of Genesis 1:1:
" Fee al-badi' khalaqa Allahu as-Samaawat wa al-Ard . . ." ( = In the beginning God (Allahu) created the heavens and the earth.) (Abu Iman Abd ar-Rahmn Robert Squires, The word "Allah in the Arabic Bible, last accessed Sept. 1, 2008)
The foregoing means that Allah is the One and Only God worshipped by the followers of Abraham, Moses and other Old Testament prophets.
It is true that a few Muslim countries — mostly non-Arab — have the crescent moon on their flags. But this has nothing to do with Islam. Indeed, the star and crescent symbol are very ancient, dating back to early Sumerian civilization. And long after the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him) the Ottomans adopted the crescent and the star into their battle standard; though it had nothing to do with Islam.
It should be noted that the twin sources of Islam — the Quran and the Sunnah — do not mention such a symbol; and the flag of the Prophet was a black and white one inscribed with "Nasrun min Allah," "With the help of Allah."
Since the Ottoman times, there has been the public perception that the star and crescent is a symbol of Islam and Muslims, and so it came to be used in decorative arts and Saracen architecture, jewelry, and so on. Hence, they can be seen on the top of mosque buildings in countries like India and Pakistan.
It should be emphasized that Islamic scholars do not approve of the use of the crescent moon and star or any such figure as a "symbol" of Islam. Islam has never adopted any symbol, and so there is no sense in Muslims adopting any such icon.
It was possible that the crescent was on top of the Kabah some 400 years before the Prophet, though there is no record except some people's dubious claim; but the question is whether the Prophet allowed its use; and the answer is emphatically, no.
Remember that the first thing the Prophet did on re-entering Makkah after the Hijrah (the Prophet's migration to Madiah), was to break all the idols in the Kabah, including that of Hubal.
We have indeed no evidence to say that Hubal was a moon god either.
Islam as taught by Prophet Muhammad has been consistently and strongly opposed to the use of all sorts of idols, icons and symbols that may lead the believers away from the worship of the One and Only God.

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You need to cite your source when you cut-and-paste the work of others. It's a forum rule.

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sojourner said:

Islam432 said:

You need to cite your source when you cut-and-paste the work of others. It's a forum rule.

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I didn't post that....

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sojourner said:

You need to cite your source when you cut-and-paste the work of others. It's a forum rule.

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Islam432 said:

Green Kepi said:

can you prove it to me that what you are saying is true (quote bible) ...like i said many people assume things without any proof

(According to the Noble Quran and the original writings of the Disciples of Jesus, Jesus was not crucified, and he watched the crucifixion of the doomed person.Also, according to the Apocalypse of Peter that was discovered in Egypt, Jesus sat on the tree and watched the crucified one getting crucified. Peter witnessed this and wrote the Apocalypse. Not only that, but while Christians insist that the book is a Gnostic one, but according to Wikipedia.org, "It is unclear whether this text advocates an adoptionist (Jesus was Divine) or docetist (Jesus' body and crucifixion were an illusion) christology".
salm 91:8 testifies to the Truthfulness of the Apocalypse of Peter!

Psalm 91:8 You will only observe with your eyes and see the punishment of the wicked.​

So there is no proof that the book is Gnostic.)

The following Biblical verses that further refute the crucifixion and resurrection lies:
Being lifted and saved:
Luke 4:10-12
10 For the Scriptures say, ‘He will order his angels to protect and guard you.
11 And they will hold you up with their hands so you won’t even hurt your foot on a stone.’”
12 Jesus responded, “The Scriptures also say, ‘You must not test the Lord your God.’”
Matthew 4:5-10
5 Then the devil took him to the holy city, Jerusalem, to the highest point of the Temple,
6 and said, “If you are the Son of God, jump off! For the Scriptures say, ‘He will order his angels to protect you. And they will hold you up with their hands so you won’t even hurt your foot on a stone.’”
7 Jesus responded, “The Scriptures also say, ‘You must not test the Lord your God.’”
8 Next the devil took him to the peak of a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.
9 “I will give it all to you,” he said, “if you will kneel down and worship me.”
10 “Get out of here, Satan,” Jesus told him. “For the Scriptures say, ‘You must worship the Lord your God and serve only him.’”

There are few points to notice in these verses:
1- Notice how satan referred to Psalm 91 regarding the protection of Jesus.
2- Notice how Jesus confirmed that Psalm 91 was indeed speaking about him by saying "the Scriptures also say..." (Luke 4:12 and Matthew 4:7).
3- As we will see in the sections below, Psalm 91 is not just concerned with preventing Christ or the Messiah from striking his feet against the ground
If Jesus died on the cross and got buried, then his feet would've struck the ground and the stones on it from bringing him down, throwing him on the floor and burying him). 13 You will tread upon the lion and the cobra; you will trample the great lion and the serpent.
14 "Because he loves me," says the LORD, "I will rescue him; I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name.
15 He will call upon me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble, I will deliver him and honor him.
16 With long life will I satisfy him and show him my salvation."

(The Noble Quran, 4:156-159)"

"That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them.

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I have found on any subject, especially religion, discussing why I believe is like if someone refuses to believe that people have walked on the moon...then no amount of information is going to change their thinking. Sufficient evidence is suppressed and the truth about Jesus and God would never be believed anyway. But...at least you respond with reasonable dialog...you are doing much better than most Christians that see things differently than I do. Atheists are the worse...they usually resort to name calling and want to tell me how stupid I am for my belief.... Salam.

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A-ManESL said:

The verse you are quoting, needs to be interpreted in context of what the words deen and Islam mean in the Quran. Islam doesnt stand for the religion Islam, there it means surrendering (the ego). Similarly deen doesnt translate as religion but way of life or system. In today's parlance the verse might be read as "And whoever follows other than surrender as a system, it will not be accepted from him, and in the Hereafter he is of the losers." (Quran)

The concept of varying religions as it is understood today is validated in the Quran itself. I could quote numerous such verses, such as 2:62, 14:4 etc.

You should try to read more about Islam from good books, not off the internet. Allah, Brahman, God, nirvana etc are all symbolisms for the same Reality which different people have focussed on differently.

Regards

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Islam432 said:

[youtube]0S_A9ERJWN0[/youtube]
YouTube - Christian accepts Islam after challenging Zakir Naik - MUST SEE !!!

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Islam432 said:

Concept of God according to Hindu Scriptures:

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K.Venugopal said:

Your differentiating between Deen and Islam is a very important one. I would see a parallel in Hinduism between the words Dharma (righteousness) and Matham (religion). You must write more on this subject to bring out aspects that appear to have been missed by most writers when they treat Deen and Islam as synonyms.

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K.Venugopal said:

Dr. Zakir Naik, as usual, appears logical but is actually not.

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Green Kepi said:

I have found on any subject, especially religion, discussing why I believe is like if someone refuses to believe that people have walked on the moon...then no amount of information is going to change their thinking. Sufficient evidence is suppressed and the truth about Jesus and God would never be believed anyway. But...at least you respond with reasonable dialog...you are doing much better than most Christians that see things differently than I do. Atheists are the worse...they usually resort to name calling and want to tell me how stupid I am for my belief.... Salam.

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K.Venugopal said:

Hinduism has concepts of God at many levels and none of these concepts are contradictory. Actually they are a graded movement to the highest concept of non-duality, which concept is not there in Islam. Therefore Muslim scholars try to see in Hinduism the concept of one God to testify that Hinduism also talks of One God like Islam. Hinduism has never reduced God to any countable number. It has only expressed God in many ways so that eventually the essence of God is got into by the most ardent of its practitioners. Hinduism is not about loyalty preached by One God religions but about self-discovery. Dr. Zakir Naik has misled Muslims about Hinduism.

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Islam432 said:

lol , all the talk you cant prove that i was wrong or what you claimed was right actually

your going against scripture

why don't you quote your scripture vedas etc , like i say assuming things doesn't make it right

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Islam432 said:

We are all here to learn bro, if i say something wrong which goes against Qur'an or Bible you can correct me in same way , iam trying to prove through your scripture that what you are saying isnt right

Also i'll give you credit that your at least searching for the truth , most people in this world just blindly follow there parental religion without even reliezing what they are following might be wrong

You can research Islam for yourself and then again don't look at the people who are practicing it but read there scriptures ie Quran and Hadith

Surah Fussilat:

"Soon We will show them our signs in the (farthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things?"

[Al-Quran 41:53

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Green Kepi said:

"You are trying to prove through my Scripture that I am wrong"...does that then me that you have arrived at the truth and I am still searching?

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Islam432 said:

If you read all the major world scriptures you'll always find "oneness of God" is always mentioned even though the people who practice the religion against it

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