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a letter to the muslims

chuck010342

Active Member
RearingArabian said:
Well, I guess it's my turn.

What's that supposed to mean?


RearingArabian said:
Allah sent His Message to us, to believe in Him and do good. Now, it is obvious that people interpret things in different ways. For example:

I asked ten people to describe an elephant:

It is big.
It has a long trunk.
It has four legs.
It can fly (a kid who watched Dumbo ;)).
It is a herbivore.
It can swim.
It likes water.
It has a rope-like tail.
It cannot jump.
It lives in Africa and Asia.

Now, this is ten people describing an elephant. Now, they can be correct, as most of them are. They interpret it as being big, herbivorous, etc. However, some interprtations can be incorrect, such as the child's interpretation. My point: Humans should base their ideas on what Allah has revealed to us.

my point is that if this book is perfect therefore no interpetations are required.

RearingArabian said:
The interprtations are based on revelation. Many people, however, base interpretations upon other peoples interpretations, meaning that you interpreted their interpretations wrong. We rely on ourseleves or other people to interpret Allah's Word. We might interpret wrong, but someone else will interpret correctly. So, it all comes down to what Allah has revealed and how we can understand it.

If there is a correct interpetation what is it? If this God is omniscient and omnipotent then why bother with interpetation?

RearingArabian said:
I don't think that made much sense, so you might like to ignore it.

If you are talking nonsense then don't say anything. I'm not being mean but what point is there in talking if you don't know what your talking about.

RearingArabian said:
These () do not exist in Arabic, they only exist in other languages. Why? A ayat in Arabic makes sense, but in English, it doesn't. The words enclosed in () make the Ayat make sense in English; without them, it wouldn't. This is precisely why you should learn the Qur'an in Arabic.

I personally have a really hard time learning another language. ( Spanish was a nightmare when I took it for two semseters in college) does that mean I am dammed to eternal hell because I cannot read arabic?

RearingArabian said:
Read again. It clearly states that if you are looking in the allegorical parts, looking for contradictions (discord), and searching for hidden meanings, you won't find them, because no one knows the except for Allah. Example: At the beginning of Surah Al-Baqarah, in the first Ayat, is Alf-Lam-Meem. It roughly translates to A-L-M, which are the sounds those letters represent. Do you know what that means? No, and neither do I. Only Allah knows. So, unless you know the meaning, you can't make a contradiction. Obviously, the whole Qur'an isn't allegorical. So, there are only some things that we are unable to understand.

See my response to Saalam to answer these questions.

RearingArabian said:
But why have an allegorical part at all? It's like asking why did 'Isa (Jesus)(as) speak in parables? The allegorical part, for Muslims, should mean that we do not know some things, and that those things we do not understand are proof of a being far more knowledgeable and intelligent than us.

Be very careful here, are you talking about the Jesus of the bible or the Jesus of the Koran.

RearingArabian said:
I am not sure of your master, but my Master is Most-Merciful.

You dont' know my master???? I would love to tell you about him.

RearingArabian said:
Let's look at them again:
I cannot remember the exact meaning of Islam, but as far as I know, it is "submission to Allah." Now, here, Ibrahim (Abraham)(as) is telling them not to die as disbelievers, but as a people who believe in Allah and submit themselves to Him.

He is saying that he is the first to believe.

RearingArabian said:
These are Musa (Moses)(as)'s words, correct? Now, if you read the preceding Ayat, you shall find out that he was in the presence of people. So, we can conclude he is the first to believe from the people.

Not nessisarily. If I am speaking in front of my family and I say God is great would I be speaking for all of them? (if you knew my family you would say certainly not.)



RearingArabian said:
Who's that?

Read the book of numbers and you will find out.

RearingArabian said:
People who have been chosen to reveal Allah's Word. Jonah is included. He is mentioned in the Qur'an as being a Prophet.

Jonah is an unwilling prophet, does that make him a prophet?

RearingArabian said:
I don't say there is a pecking order. If you want to be a Muslim, you can. No questions asked. Except that you might be asked if you're telling the truth.

Thats what the explination of Salaam said.

RearingArabian said:
He (as) had to be because he was in Heaven before he was sent to Earth, and he saw Allah, the Angels, and the Jinn. You think somebody wouldn't believe if Allah Himself was talking to Him?

Whoa this is completely unbiblical.
 

_salam_

Member
chuck010342 said:
I believe in all of these things how come I'm not a muslim then?
In a extremly basic sense of the meaning I suppose. However there is more to it than just those seven things I listed. Also I said that as a Muslim we have to believe in ALL of God's Prophets (that includes Muhammad, peace be upon him) and in all of God's revelations/scriptures (that includes the Qur'an). Now obviously somebody who lived before these things came about would not be required to believe in them since they had not happened yet.

The reason I asked about Jonah is because Jonah was not a willing prophet. I wanted to know if the critera for a prophet was his willingness to submit to God.
Thats according to the Bible not the Qur'an.
 

_salam_

Member
chuck010342 said:
If nobody knows the meanings of the verses execpt Allah then why are they there? Its not for humans because we cannot understand them in the first place. Also if Nobody knows then your not relying on a person at all. If nobody knows the meaning of the verses then the verses are useless. And the Koran cannot be a perfect book if it has useless verses in them.
As I said before we may not know certain verses now but one day people might be able to understand them with advances in knowledge and technology. I think you're lossing site of what I have already said, maybe you should go back and read posts #126 and 127.



Another critera for the book not being perfect and from heaven. If the book is perfect then it should be able to be understood in the now.
The Qur'an is understadable here and now, again go back and read verse 3:7



right so the koran cannot be perfect for all humans because we need ( ) to clarify it. If the book was perfect for all humans then we wouldn't need the ( ) now would we?
As its been said before the () are not in the original Arabic only in other languages. The Qur'an is understandable in Arabic.



Teach us? How can it teach us if the book has verses in them that cannot be understood?
Again go read verse 3:7
 

_salam_

Member
chuck010342 said:
Be very careful here, are you talking about the Jesus of the bible or the Jesus of the Koran.
Obviously Jesus (pbuh) of the Bible, He would use parables in almost all of the stories He gave.



He is saying that he is the first to believe.
Verse 2:132,
"And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! God hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam."

Care to show me where it says or even implies that Abraham (pbuh) was the first. It only shows that Abraham (pbuh) was of this faith.
 

chuck010342

Active Member
_salam_ said:
Obviously Jesus (pbuh) of the Bible, He would use parables in almost all of the stories He gave.



Verse 2:132,
"And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! God hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam."

Care to show me where it says or even implies that Abraham (pbuh) was the first. It only shows that Abraham (pbuh) was of this faith.

Where did his sons come from? they came from Abraham who if he teaches his sons of the faith then he himself had to be from the same faith?
 

chuck010342

Active Member
_salam_ said:
Obviously Jesus (pbuh) of the Bible, He would use parables in almost all of the stories He gave.

Yes but its Jesus not an interpetation of him.

_salam_ said:
Verse 2:132,
"And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! God hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam."

Care to show me where it says or even implies that Abraham (pbuh) was the first. It only shows that Abraham (pbuh) was of this faith.

Abraham's sons came from there father and the knowledge of there faith came from there father so it comes from Abraham.
 

_salam_

Member
Yes I know the verse says that Abraham (pbuh) followed Islam, I'm not denying that. However, you had said that the verse stated Abraham (pbuh) was the first to believe, and it does not say that, it merely says that he believed.
 

_salam_

Member
chuck010342 said:
If nobody knows the meanings of the verses execpt Allah then why are they there? Its not for humans because we cannot understand them in the first place. Also if Nobody knows then your not relying on a person at all. If nobody knows the meaning of the verses then the verses are useless. And the Koran cannot be a perfect book if it has useless verses in them.

Teach us? How can it teach us if the book has verses in them that cannot be understood?
Let me clarify on this subject a bit more. Lets say that I were to write a medical paper describing the human body. In this paper there are no gramatical errors, I used all the correct medical terms to refer to the correct parts of the body, everything was used in the correct context, and it agreed perfectly with known medical knowledge. In other words the paper was completely perfect. Now lets say that I were to read this paper to my nine year old brother. I can assure you, and I'm sure you would agree, that he isn't going to be able to understand or comprehend some, if not the majority, of the things discussed within the paper dispite it being perfect. As we can see, the fact that my brother can't comprehend everything within the paper has no effect on the paper's validity, how truthful it is, or it's perfection.

Let me give you another example from the Bible itself. Jesus (pbuh) would use parables to give lessons to people and to his disciples, however, the people and even sometimes his disciples didn't comprehend the meanings of the parables. Some examples:

Matthew 13:36
"....His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."

This obviously implies that they (his disciples) didn't understand the meaning.

Mark 4:10
"When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables....."
Mark 4:13
"Then Jesus said to them, "Don't you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable?..."

Again these show that the disciples didn't comprehend the parables.

Mark 8:17-21 (This one isn't a parable but nonetheless it shows how the disciples didn't comprehend)
"Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked them: "Why are you talking about having no bread? Do you still not see or understand? Are your hearts hardened? Do you have eyes but fail to see, and ears but fail to hear? And don't you remember? When I broke the five loaves for the five thousand, how many basketfuls of pieces did you pick up?"
"Twelve," they replied.
"And when I broke the seven loaves for the four thousand, how many basketfuls of pieces did you pick up?"
They answered, "Seven."
He said to them, "Do you still not understand?"

Now, I'm sure you would agree that even though the crowds and Jesus' (pbuh) own disciples did'nt understand or comprehend the teachings/parables/signs of Jesus (pbuh) doesn't make them "useless" (as you put it), or less valid, or untrue, or have any effect on how perfect they are. Our unability to comprehend God has no effect on His perfection.

As I have stated before, maybe when we become more knowledgable about the world around us we will be able to understand certain verses in the Qur'an that are a mystery to us now. Let me provide an example of a verse in the Qur'an that shows how this has been the case in the past.
In the book "The Bible The Qur'an and Science" written by Dr. Maurice Bucaille (who by the way does speak Arabic), he has this to say in the chapter about astronomy.

"The expansion of the universe is the most imposing discovery of modern science. Today it is a firmly established concept and the only debate centres around the way this is taking place.
It was first suggested by the general theory of relativity and is backed up by physics in the examination of the galactic spectrum; the regular movement towards the red section of their spectrum may be explained by the distancing of one galaxy from another. Thus the size of the universe is probably constantly increasing and this increase will become bigger the further away the galaxies are from us. The speeds at which these celestial bodies are moving may, in the course of this perpetual expansion, go from fractions of the speed of light to speeds faster than this.
The following verse of the Qur'an (sura 51, verse 47) where God is speaking, may perhaps be compared with modern ideas:
"The heaven, We have built it with power, Verily We are expanding it."
'Heaven' is the translation of the word sama' and this is exactly the extra-terrestrial world that is meant. 'We are expanding it' is the translation of the plural present participle musi' una of the verb ausa'a meaning 'to make wider, more spacious, to extend, to expand'.
Some translators who were unable to grasp the meaning of the latter provide translations that appear to me to be mistaken, e.g. "we give generously" (R. Blachere)."

As you can see here, the verse in the Qur'an has been misunderstood becasue the translator (R. Blachere) didn't comprehend the meaning of the verse. My guess is that he translated it before the expansion of the universe had been discovered and therefore "We are expanding it." didn't make sense to him. Now that we do know of the expansion of the universe the verse makes a lot more sense to us. There are other instenses within translations similar to this one, where phrases have been mistranslated because the translator did'nt understand what the verse meant, but with new discoveries we have made we can now comprehend these verses. So perhaps God put certain verses like this, in the Qur'an, so that they can be a sign for people of latter generations, and perhaps there will be more signs like this one found in the Qur'an. Infact these signs like this one just prove to me that the Qur'an and Islam were meant for all people for all time (which is a Muslim belief).
 

Peace

Quran & Sunnah
chuck010342 said:
If the Quran is destined for all of humanity they why is it in its perfect form in a paticular language?
The Quran is perfect in Arabic because it was revealed to Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him in Arabic and no other language. The Quran is the words of God and not the words of man that's why it is perfect. When the Quran is translated, it is translated by men and not by God and the words of men are not perfect.

Peace
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Chuck, try to think of it this way. How many different virsions of the bible are there? Dozens all based on different translations. There is one koran. If you want to know what the koran really says you learn to read Arabic. Devotion and keeping with the origional source, not a bad combo really.

wa:do
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
chuck010342 said:
One of Marys? what do you mean?

I don't see how the different geneologies are countradictory. One Geneology doesn't say that Solomon was the son of David. while another says that David was the son of Solomon.

Luke is greek so I think he traced the linage back to God. Matthew is Hebrew so he traces the linage back to the father of the Hebrews Abraham.
So you admit a contradiction in the given lineage? Because they can't both be correct lineages, can they chuck?
I suppose this also goes to the question of whether jesus is a jewish moshiach......but i'm gonna start rambling here in a minute so i'll stop
 

_salam_

Member
Peace said:
The Quran is perfect in Arabic because it was revealed to Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him in Arabic and no other language. The Quran is the words of God and not the words of man that's why it is perfect. When the Quran is translated, it is translated by men and not by God and the words of men are not perfect.

Peace
Well said.;)
 

chuck010342

Active Member
_salam_ said:
As I said before we may not know certain verses now but one day people might be able to understand them with advances in knowledge and technology. I think you're lossing site of what I have already said, maybe you should go back and read posts #126 and 127.

The Qur'an is understadable here and now, again go back and read verse 3:7

You just countradicted yourself.

_salam_ said:
As its been said before the () are not in the original Arabic only in other languages. The Qur'an is understandable in Arabic.

yeah I know that the ( ) are not in the Koran so why are they there now? because the koran was translated into english. The Koran does not speak fully to everybody because it was revealed in Arabic, therefore it is not perfect because it shows paticularity to a specific language.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
The Koran does not speak fully to everybody because it was revealed in Arabic, therefore it is not perfect because it shows paticularity to a specific language.
And the Bible doesn`t?
 

chuck010342

Active Member
_salam_ said:
Let me clarify on this subject a bit more. Lets say that I were to write a medical paper describing the human body. In this paper there are no gramatical errors, I used all the correct medical terms to refer to the correct parts of the body, everything was used in the correct context, and it agreed perfectly with known medical knowledge. In other words the paper was completely perfect. Now lets say that I were to read this paper to my nine year old brother. I can assure you, and I'm sure you would agree, that he isn't going to be able to understand or comprehend some, if not the majority, of the things discussed within the paper dispite it being perfect. As we can see, the fact that my brother can't comprehend everything within the paper has no effect on the paper's validity, how truthful it is, or it's perfection.

I see. this makes good sense. There is still the language barrier is there not? your 9 year old brother does not see that medical paper as perfect if he cannot understand it can he not?

_salam_ said:
Let me give you another example from the Bible itself. Jesus (pbuh) would use parables to give lessons to people and to his disciples, however, the people and even sometimes his disciples didn't comprehend the meanings of the parables. Some examples:

Matthew 13:36
"....His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."

This obviously implies that they (his disciples) didn't understand the meaning.

Mark 4:10
"When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables....."
Mark 4:13
"Then Jesus said to them, "Don't you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable?..."

Again these show that the disciples didn't comprehend the parables.

Mark 8:17-21 (This one isn't a parable but nonetheless it shows how the disciples didn't comprehend)
"Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked them: "Why are you talking about having no bread? Do you still not see or understand? Are your hearts hardened? Do you have eyes but fail to see, and ears but fail to hear? And don't you remember? When I broke the five loaves for the five thousand, how many basketfuls of pieces did you pick up?"
"Twelve," they replied.
"And when I broke the seven loaves for the four thousand, how many basketfuls of pieces did you pick up?"
They answered, "Seven."
He said to them, "Do you still not understand?"

Now, I'm sure you would agree that even though the crowds and Jesus' (pbuh) own disciples did'nt understand or comprehend the teachings/parables/signs of Jesus (pbuh) doesn't make them "useless" (as you put it), or less valid, or untrue, or have any effect on how perfect they are. Our unability to comprehend God has no effect on His perfection.

They didn't understand BEFORE the holy spirit was given. And Jesus always explained his parables when he needed to.
_salam_ said:
As I have stated before, maybe when we become more knowledgable about the world around us we will be able to understand certain verses in the Qur'an that are a mystery to us now. Let me provide an example of a verse in the Qur'an that shows how this has been the case in the past.
In the book "The Bible The Qur'an and Science" written by Dr. Maurice Bucaille (who by the way does speak Arabic), he has this to say in the chapter about astronomy.

I really wanted to read that book but time isn't permitable.

_salam_ said:
As you can see here, the verse in the Qur'an has been misunderstood becasue the translator (R. Blachere) didn't comprehend the meaning of the verse.

right here, how can something be perfect yet not understandable?
 
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