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The qur'an and Islamic terrorism

A-ManESL

Well-Known Member
so muhammad demanded them to worship one god and not use idols, isn it? And when they were not ready to accept that, muhammad conquered them and destroyed idols in kaaba temple and made it a mosque....what right muhammad have to evaluate others faith? the idols placed in kaaba temple was that of jesus and mary, and muhammad did believed to worship them is wrong..... If you justify muhammad for this, how can you blame the mughals who destoryed innumerable temples of india? hindus were polythiestic and idol worshippers like pagans...



he demanded to pagans to worship one god and destroy idols in kaaba temple, muhammad was not at all peaceful on that.



After those wars, the women of opponents were taken as slaves by muhammad, there were instances where those women complain to muhammad about the harassment and torture from his soldiers, and begging to leave them free, and muhammad refused all their requests. So muhammad had no problems with his followers harassing women, means they were true followers of muhammad. How can we say the later muslims who conquered and raped women were not true followers of muhammad?

I think you need to read the book. Lots of wrong things in your post, some factually wrong (such as Muhammad(pbuh) destroying idols of Jesus and Mary, in fact the painting was not destroyed but preserved with respect), and some out of context (as I have explained, there was no new religion, and the whole idea as you think of religion today wasnt there in Islam). You are also ignoring the fact that pagan Arabs had no real religion, merely a religion of convenience to facilitate their ends. Also please to know that warfare a part of life in that society, and the Prophet indulged in them along with his tribe since he was a young man, before he became the messenger. Also many times fighting is necessary: didnt Lord Ram kill demons, and Bali and invade Lanka. No person with sense would say that what he did was wrong.

For real religions such as Judaism, Christianity, Zoroastrianism which existed at that time they were recognized as de-jure religions by the Prophet. As for Hinduism, they were and are not like the pagan Arabs and later on their are innumerable statements of Muslim scholars which placed their status at-par with Christians/Jews etc.

The women thing is all nonsense, again, I suspect some incident taken out of context. And after which wars: the conquest of Mecca wasnt a war, or a battle: it was without bloodshed.

Nameless, let me be honest with you. I strongly suspect you have merely read these arguments off some naive anti-Islamic site and not from some book (if you have, could you kindly mention the name). I again invite you to read a good book.

Regards
 
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.lava

Veteran Member
.lava, not Muslim sites, but actual historians.

interesting. so you are sincerely expecting me to offer non-Islamic sources about the Prophet of Islam! extremely smart!

Although of the two of you, .lava, your assertions are the more ridiculous. I mean, Muslims agree and revere Muhammad as one of the greatest generals/commanders/leaders in history. The man founded a dynasty that lasted for centuries, conquered vast lands and united their people into a fighting force that eventually occupied most of the inhabited world, and you're trying to portray him as some kind of pacifist? That's absurd.

what absurd is your angle. i was referring to murderer. i've never denied wars. of course they should protect their families. what else? and yes, of course he was great, he was messenger of God. all Prophets are special people.

The fact that Muhammad is "Qur'an on feet" is part of the problem.

or in other words entire Muslim population on Earth is part of your problem, nice.

Muslims seek to emulate a great warlord, and that legacy continues to bear violent fruit today.

he did not declare war on anyone. Muslims were attacked by others so they defended as a real man should. but maybe non-Islamic sources can not stand this fact and they change it to "He started war on -infidels-". and we Muslim women are more than happy to follow a man who's a rapist, murderer..etc. i must admit, Western theory and what they insist that's happened in the past clearly shows how they see Muslim women, all Muslims....basically over a billion maniacs who's willing to follow someone who rapes. yeah, right! the truth is one must be lunatic to believe such a thing or -of course- a delusional and hateful person who's blinded by his own lies.

The fact is that Islam was born of war as well as words,

you wish.
Islam brought equality to a society where people were sold as slaves. the rich did not like it and they attacked Muslims. they tortured them, killed them and forced them to abandon Islam so that they would not lose power.

I mean, raiding merchant caravans is just not self-defense, and there's no way to paint it as such.

that's nothing but eye-for an eye IMO

.
 
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Dude please read it with the context! Dont be brainwash by website.

Bible:

1. Jihad/Fight for the cause of God started with Bible!

"All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, WERE TO BE PUT TO DEATH, whether small or great, man or women" [2 Chronicles, 15:13]


2. Real Terrorism:

"They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded moses, and killed every man...Now kill all the boys (innocent kids). And kill every women who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man" [Numbers 31:7, 17-18]



kill everything that "breathes" from human and animals!

"However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, DO NOT LEAVE ALIVE ANYTHING THAT BREATHES" [Deut, 20:16]


The Jewish soldiers were commanded by "God" in the Bible to keep the woman children (little girls) for themselves! In addition, they commanded to kill every woman that hath know a man by lying with him. My question, HOW THESE SOLDIERS IN THOSE DAYS KNOW IF THE GIRLS ARE VIRGIN OR NOT? Simply they verify it by raping them and if the Jews discovered that they are non-virgins then they killed them as they commanded by "God"

BUT THE MOST OUTRAGEOUS IS THAT THE BIBLE IMPLY THAT GOD IS A PEDOPHILE HIMSELF!! (Naujubellah)!

3. Sucking infants were executed by the ten thousands!

"Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; BUT SLAY BOTH MAN AND WOMEN, INFANT THEM AND SUCKING, ox and sheep, camel and ***" [1 Samuel, 15:3]

"And Saul gathered the people together, and numbered them in Telaim, TWO THOUSAND FOOTMEN, AND TEN THOUSAND MEN OF JUDHA"
[1 Samuel, 15:4]

Rape, Murder and pillage at Jabesh-Giled in Judges 21:10-24


4. Killing the righteous before the wicked!

"And say to her: 'This is what the LORD says: I am against you. I will draw my sword from its scabbard AND CUT OFF FROM YOU BOTH THE RIGHTEOUS AND THE WICKED." [Ezekiel, 21:3]

"Because i am going to cut off the righteous and the wicked, my sword will be unsheathed against everyone from south to north." [Ezekiel, 21:4]

"Then all people will know that I the LORD have drawn my sword from its scabbard; it will not return again" [Ezekiel, 21:5]


5. According to Jesus childrens are guilty for the sin of Mother!

"AND I WILL KILL HER CHILDREN WITH DEATH; and all the churches shall know that i am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and i will unto every one of you according to your works" [Revelations 2:32]

Jesus Himself breaks the Old Testament law, so he was a sinner.

"Father shall not be put to death for the children, neighter shall the children be put to death for the father. Every man shall be put to death for his own sin" [Deut, 24:16]

Islam:

1. In Islam slay any innocent man equal is the slay of whole mankind!

"On that account: I ordained for the children of israel that if any one slew a person- unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land- IT WOULD BE AS IF HE SLEW THE WHOLE PEOPLE: AND IF ANY ONE SAVED A LIFE, IT WOULD BE AS IF HE SAVED THE LIFE OF THE WHOLE PEOPLE...." [Quran, 5:32]

"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress Limits: for God loveth not transgressors" [Quran, 2:190]

"But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God, for He is One that hearth and knoweth (all things)" [Quran, 8:61]

"And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion of God. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrongdodrs" [Quran, 2:193]

"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error..." [Quran, 2:226]

"Say, 'The Truth is from your LORD': Let him who will believe, and let him who will reject it..." [Quran, 18:29]


2. kill any women and children is prohibited in Islam!

Narrated by 'Abdullah : During some of the Ghazawat of the Prophet a Women was found killed. God's Apostle DISAPPROVED THE KILLING OF CHILDREN AND WOMEN" [Sahaih Bukhari, volume 4, book 52, number 257]

Narrated by Umar: "Messenger of God forbade the killing of women and children" [Sahiah Bukhari, volume 4, book 52, number 258]


3. Suicide is prohibited in Islam:

"...Do not kill yourselvs: for verily Allah hath been to you Most Merciful" [Quran, 4:29]

"If anyone do that in rancour and injustic, soon shall I cast him into the fire.." [Quran, 4:30]


Prophet Muhammad(Pbuh) also says:

Narrated Jundab the Prophet said, "A man was indicted with wounds and commited suicide, and so Allah said: My slave has caused death on himself hurriedly, so I forbid Paradise for him" [Sahiah Bukhari, Volume 2, Number 445]

*** The point is that if Prophet Muhammad killed his pagan enemies, even though Islam is truly a Religion that respects the enemies (even when they're killed), THEN WHY IS IT OK FOR THE BIBLE'S PROPHETS TO KILL THEIR ENEMIES???***
 
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EtuMalku

Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
At this point all I can say is that all three of the Abrahamic religions seem pretty evil to me, maybe we could build a cage at Ground Zero and throw one of each in and who ever is left standing gets to build a temple thingy?
 

Cypress

Dragon Mom
At this point all I can say is that all three of the Abrahamic religions seem pretty evil to me, maybe we could build a cage at Ground Zero and throw one of each in and who ever is left standing gets to build a temple thingy?
When Jews and Christians had their great times, they were pretty brutal too.
Only problem is: Weapons were pretty primitive those times compared with what we have today.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
After i wrote my last post here and logged off, i myself was wondering, not how i should answer you, but whether i myself knows the answer or not. What i realized was that, only few people know *something* about it. I believe that Muslims themselves are confused, what happened to my religion? what happened to my fellow Muslims!

That's why all what an average Muslim can tell you is that what it happening is contrary to the teachings of Islam. They honestly don't know what's wrong! I know, it's hard to believe, but this is how Muslims feel. And even if you asked scholars, each one of them would have his own theory.

I asked myself this question so many times, it was really puzzling. What happened?! What's going on?!Many non-Muslims don't realize how Muslims are struggling. I started reading countless Muslim resources about it, and i wasn't satisfied, what i found was either apologies, justifications, or condemnations. Hey, i shouted in my mind, i need a reason! Unfortunately, i found none. Is it my Quran? Is it my religion?

The default answer is no for me because there are more than one and half billion people who belong to this religion and most of them live their lives normally. I thought to myself, maybe the Muslims would be the last people i should ask, because i'm a Muslim and i don't know anything about this and why it's happening, so i thought non-Muslims, especially British and Americans maybe will be more capable of telling me about my problem, because they are fighting terrorism, isn't it?

So, I started reading non-Muslim resources. I read so many books written by non-Muslims on Islam, terrorism, violence, politics, Muslim's history, etc, and again, each one of those had his/her own theory. Still, no body knows the answer, just mere speculations.

I think i should ask myself this question, after all these years of research on this issue, am i able to answer this question now? why Muslims turned into terrorists, killing their own brothers and sisters in Islam before killing the others!!!

Maybe i have a glim of truth finally? Who knows!

I'll try to explain for you to the best of my ability what i know so far on this subject. Don't worry, they are my own words this time, not the articles you despise. The following is what i have been thinking about for so many hours. I tried to gather in my head what i can understand so far on the subject, but i know that i can't remember everything so this is what comes to my mind now.


After the fall of Ottoman Empire, Muslim countries were like children who lost their parents, still figuring out how to survive on their own. They had no relatives and no guardian to take care of them. The problem was that, there was A LOT of children.

Some of them been adopted for being too talented or too beautiful, some of them were very small and weak so they got kidnapped, some of them walked alone in the dark so they got raped, some of them were very poor so they worked in prostitution, some of them struggled but finally lost their mind, some of them tried their best and they could barely survive, some of them worked so hard so they made it, and some of them died. They kept growing up, and when fighting others, they kept winning and losing, laughing and crying, but they were still, just children.

Between the 80's and late 90's they were already teenagers, but after that they started to grow more and more till they became grown ups and chose their paths. The tough decisions appeared on the surface and either good or bad decisions had their own consequences. Once they became grown ups, they looked around them and noticed how people in the far east and west were old, mature, and wise because they finished up the miseries since ages, but to the "Muslims", the real battle to know themselves have just began.

A big blow happened, many Muslims were injured and most of them till now are going through a very difficult surgery which will determine whether they will survive or die, but even if they lived, their life will never be the same.

That's the whole story.

Now, the Muslims who will change and adapt, will be able to, not only survive, but go forward and catch up to the rest of the civil world. On the other hand, those who will resist change will either be FORCED to change or will die and humiliated in misery. It was the wake up call for Muslims around the world, to teach them that doing NOTHING does have consequences.

We can use an example here, he is not just a well known scholar but maybe he is one of the most charismatic and influential men in the Muslim world, who have gone through this change. A great, modern, open-minded clergy, a unique Muslim thinker, and one of those who helped to laid out the foundations of reform in the Muslim world. He is the Shikh, Dr. Salman al-Ouda, who changed dramatically from supporting chaos and terrorists into supporting reform and enlightenment.

Salman al-Ouda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I myself found out that i was closed minded person on some issues compared to him. Sometimes when he speak, i can't believe that these words are coming from a conservative Shikh like him. I learnt a lot from him, and his attitude really was enlightening to me. He inspired thousands and maybe millions of Muslims to change positively and abandon their fear.

It's true that Europe lived well their dark ages and the Muslims helped in their enlightenment in the past, but today i think it will be the other way around, even if it was indirectly and unintentionally.


Autodidact, i think if i wanted to write on this subject seriously, i will not be able to do so in a post or two, but i'll need to write an entire book about it. That's why i tried so hard to squeeze me thoughts and what i have learnt and searched for during the last couple of years into a one big picture represented in this humble post of mine. I know it might not fully satisfy your thirst on this subject, but i hope it can give you an idea of what's going on, maybe a glim of hope. Maybe instead of attacking Islam, you will find a more noble cause by attempting to be more understanding, and more productive, and more supportive, because you are attacking the wrong people.

Start picking up a couple of books about Islam and Muslims in the past and how they changed Europe and helped them to reach to where they are today. Maybe that will help you to see the big picture, not about Islam, but about the whole world. All these things around us happened in less than a century. Think of the previous centuries and the centuries to come, and you will realize that we just represent less than a fraction in the course of history. Only then, you will know the truth, that nothing can stay constant in this life forever.


Regards,
Tashan
 
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Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
This is not entirely true. I'm tempted to refute your claims about the motivations of Prophet Mohammed and how he treated his enemies, the false statements about the details of wars and why these battles started. Nevertheless, i think if i started doing all of that we will need to put it in a new independent thread because we will lose our focus in your OP, unless you believe it's necessary for you to know the accurate information of Mohammed's history, then i would be more than happy to provide you with the details *using my own arguments*, not articles this time.

They really belong in the "Muslims why so violent" thread, but for some reason the Powers That Be shut it down and never re-opened it. I think we can go there now.

I think you are making it more difficult for me and for the other Muslims to focus on your OP, because you are doing the exact thing you have accused me of doing, spouting propaganda.
Tasha: I have stated really uncontroversial, basic facts about Muhammed. I didn't go into whether he's a pedophile or mterrorist. I think Muslims and non-Muslims can agree that Muhammed conducted raids on merchant caravans--that's really not disputed, is it? Don't you agree that Muhammed took prisoners and held them for ransom? I really tried to stay away from any controversial accusations and just make the basic point that the man was a conqueror. He led campaigns and directed campaigns in war. He conquered. This is undisputed, and I don't understand your objection.

I'm not saying that Christianity or any other religion are great or haven't committed atrocities, but one thing that is distinct and unusual about Islam is that it was founded by a warrior.

Further, Muslims are told to emulate this founder as the best possible man. Therefore, the best possible thing for a Muslim to be is a warrior.

I feel confident that is one of the reasons it is represented by warriors today is that it was founded by a warrior that Muslims are directed to emulate.
That's why Muslims will feel that they need to correct the errors in your posts, which is really not that beneficial to the purpose of your OP, so instead of splashing quotations and verses, i hope you will focus more in reasoning, analyzing, and interacting with us.
What did I say that you disagree with?
I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt until now, but if you keep throwing at our face wrong information about Islam, your thread will either die in misery, or you will end up debating with yourself and with some bigots and your thread will turning into a propaganda which have no purpose but to bash Islam.
I'm using very neutral sources here, Tasha.

Therefore, for now, i feel that i need to address your main concern here, which i believe is, how these wars in the time of Prophet Mohammed whether they were justified or not play a vital role in inspiring some Muslims today to act similarly, which will also takes us to point number 2.
The main issue is, were they (seen as) wars of aggression, or wars of self-defense?

No one can deny that wars occurred in the past during the life of Prophet Mohammed and the Muslims after him but they were acting as a state which need to defend itself sometimes, and in some other times, they needed to expand and concur other lands.
they needed to conquer? Why? Conquering lands is not self-defense.

On the other hand, Islam is extremely strict about the state affairs, that's why it's strictly prohibited in Islam for the normal citizens to rebel or act independently when it comes to the things which only the Caliph/King/President have a say on. Not only that, but also, those who rebel and act that way will be fought by the ruler and in our religion we will call them khawarij.
Yes, that's one of the other problems with Islam--the idea that subjects must obey the ruler absolutely, no matter how despotic.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
You are also ignoring the fact that pagan Arabs had no real religion, merely a religion of convenience to facilitate their ends.

Define "religion." Provide some unbiased source for this slur.

So basically you're completely opposed to freedom of religion? Pagans shouldn't have the same rights you have?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
autodidact said:
they needed to conquer? Why? Conquering lands is not self-defense.
Conquering lands not theirs can never be considered "self-defence".

And I don't believe that any invasions can be considered their leaders or armies to be "liberators"; the real word to use is "invaders".
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
interesting. so you are sincerely expecting me to offer non-Islamic sources about the Prophet of Islam! extremely smart!
Of course. Do you accept Christian sources about Jesus? Do you accept that Jesus is God and was resurrected? Of course not. We're looking for an unbiased source, neither Islamic nor a hate-Muslims site.

what absurd is your angle. i was referring to murderer. i've never denied wars. of course they should protect their families. what else? and yes, of course he was great, he was messenger of God. all Prophets are special people.
Not just wars, Tasha, but wars that he started to conquer other countries. You don't establish one of the largest empires in history by "defending your family." The question is not whether he was great, but what he was great at. He was (among other things) a great general, war-lord and conqueror. This is not propaganda, it's basic life-of-Muhammad stuff. What do you dispute?

or in other words entire Muslim population on Earth is part of your problem, nice.
No, not particularly. This thread is about Islamist extremists. I don't consider "the entire Muslim population" to be among that group.

he did not declare war on anyone.
Sorry, that's just flat out wrong, and I think you know that.
Muslims were attacked by others so they defended as a real man should. but maybe non-Islamic sources can not stand this fact and they change it to "He started war on -infidels-".
Tasha, stop and think for a minute. How do you conquer hundreds of square miles and establish a great Caliphate defending your self? That makes no sense.
and we Muslim women are more than happy to follow a man who's a rapist, murderer..etc.
I didn't say any of those things. Read my post.
i must admit, Western theory and what they insist that's happened in the past clearly shows how they see Muslim women, all Muslims....basically over a billion maniacs who's willing to follow someone who rapes. yeah, right! the truth is one must be lunatic to believe such a thing or -of course- a delusional and hateful person who's blinded by his own lies.
Please focus. Islamist radical. Radical Islamists. Are most Muslim women radical Islamists who support Al Qaeda, hizbollah and Muslim Brotherhood?
you wish.
Islam brought equality to a society where people were sold as slaves.
Facts. Muslims sold Africans as slaves for centuries.
the rich did not like it and they attacked Muslims. they tortured them, killed them and forced them to abandon Islam so that they would not lose power.
I'm guessing you learned history from Muslim propagandists? Have you ever read any nuetral, qualified historians about the life and deeds of Muhammad?

Do you believe other religion's propaganda? Why would we believe yours?
that's nothing but eye-for an eye IMO
First, eye for an eye is not moral progress. Second, are you saying they raided Muhammad's caravan?

 

A-ManESL

Well-Known Member
Define "religion." Provide some unbiased source for this slur.

So basically you're completely opposed to freedom of religion? Pagans shouldn't have the same rights you have?

Religion is the whole way of life, spiritual component, inner piety included. I accept that this is a confusing term and should be dropped altogether. As I have mentioned earlier, in W.C. Smith's book the topic is discussed in detail.

I am completely supportive of all different forms of "religiousness", be it Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, Judaism etc, but not of exploitation of the weak.
The Quran itself says that God's message has been permeated by holy men and women among all people everywhere on earth and it has always been in the way that those people could relate to in the context of their lives (meaning of Quran 14:4). If the way of life of the pagan Arabs was not morally decadent, I would have no issues with it. That it was not morally acceptable in a variety of ways, can be attested by a number of "Muslim sources" (In Islamic parlance it is called the age of ignorance). Maybe you will not be satisfied with "Muslim sources", and so with respect to women, I found the following excerpt online: (Maybe you can find the books of W.M. Watt, titled Muhammad at Mecca and Muhammad at Medina in your local library)

In the sphere of marriage and family relations Muhammad effected a profound and far-reaching reorganization of the structure of society. Before his time new individualistic tendencies were certainly present, but their presence was leading more to a breakdown of the old structure than to the building up of a new one. Muhammad’s essential work here was to use these individualistic tendencies in the raising of a new structure. The customs and practices of the communal (tribal) stage of society, to vary the metaphor, had suffered shipwreck; Muhammad salvaged what was valuable from them, and carried it over to the new individualistic society. In this way he produced a family structure that in many respects has proved attrac tive and satisfactory for societies emerging from the communal stage and passing into an individualistic one. Both by European Christian standards and by those of Islam, many of the old practices were immoral, and Muhammad’s reorganization was therefore a moral advance

From the same writer's Muhammad: prophet and statesmen,
The break down of the tribe and clan led to the oppression of weaker members of the community...
You can read the books mentioned yourself, to make sure I am not quoting out of context etc.

Moreover the presence of any spiritual element in pre-Islamic Arab worship does not have any direct evidence, but had there been any on a large scale it is probable that some literature or references would have survived. Without the necessary spiritual ingredient, I believe, outward religion is merely show.

Regards
 
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Tathagata

Freethinker
Much more loving then Allah.

Yahweh is much more loving than Allah? FALSE.

Yahweh says: "they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up." (Hosea 13:16)

Hosea 13:16 - Passage Lookup - King James Version - BibleGateway.com

The Bible contains 1,121 violent passages where God either commands or commits violence, and the Quran has 520 violent passages.

Dwindling In Unbelief: Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?



.
 

nameless

The Creator
I think you need to read the book. Lots of wrong things in your post, some factually wrong (such as Muhammad(pbuh) destroying idols of Jesus and Mary, in fact the painting was not destroyed but preserved with respect), and some out of context (as I have explained, there was no new religion, and the whole idea as you think of religion today wasnt there in Islam). You are also ignoring the fact that pagan Arabs had no real religion, merely a religion of convenience to facilitate their ends.
Regards

pagan arabs had religion or no-religion, does it makes any difference, A-ManESL? they believed in certain gods, and worshiped them in the form of idols. Muhammad claimed he had some revealations, and demanded everyone should follow his path, if they were not interested to follow muhammad's idea, why it should be enforced on to them?
Some sources including wikipedia says, idols of mary and jesus were destroyed, but still if it was not destroyed why it should be removed? is not against the practice of cristianity?
 
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A-ManESL

Well-Known Member
pagan arabs had religion or no-religion, does it makes any difference, A-ManESL? they believed in certain gods, and worshiped them in the form of idols. Muhammad claimed he had some revealations, and demanded everyone should follow his path, if they were not interested to follow muhammad's idea, why it should be enforced on to them?
Some sources including wikipedia says, idols of mary and jesus were destroyed, but still if it was not destroyed why it should be removed? is not against the practice of cristianity?

Nothing was enforced. It is against the teachings of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to force or coerce one to change his religion. The Quran says, "There is no compulsion in religion". Nor was it demanded, that everyone should follow Islam, did you not read the letter I put in my previous post and the verse 2:62 I quoted. The destruction of the idols was in a specific context, and you need to understand the history behind the conquest of Mecca (which was without bloodshed, and about the treaty of Hudaiba & the general amnesty that was announced for all pagan Arabs after the conquest). The fresco of Jesus and Mary wasnt destroyed (see this), I have no idea what sources say that, could you show them to me.

Nameless, I honestly feel that you need to read a good book about Islam, (by a well established author) to understand what it means, the concept of unity in it, the position of Prophet Muhammad as the universal man in it etc. Only after studying it properly can you form a informed opinion on it. It was only after studying Islam for a long time did Mahatma Gandhi come to the conclusion that the central teaching of Islam is love. Plus reading a good book, can only give you an extra viewpoint, it cant harm you in any way.If you cant find a book, tell me, and I will be happy to email you a soft copy. :)

Regards
 

.lava

Veteran Member
Of course. Do you accept Christian sources about Jesus? Do you accept that Jesus is God and was resurrected? Of course not. We're looking for an unbiased source, neither Islamic nor a hate-Muslims site.

any source about The Prophet of Islam you could find on-line or here and there use Islamic source as starters. do you know why? let me tell you, sweet thing. because humans can not travel in time. Islamic sources hold the information about Islam. the rest of sources take whatever suits their personal opinions. Christians believe in Bible. in case a Christian claim Jesus PBUH to be space alien then i would ask for verse from Bible at least to see it is written there. i am not obligated to believe it or not. and, unlike you i am not claiming Christians or Christianity to be this or that. we believe differently and everybody knows that.

Not just wars, Tasha, but wars that he started to conquer other countries. You don't establish one of the largest empires in history by "defending your family." The question is not whether he was great, but what he was great at. He was (among other things) a great general, war-lord and conqueror. This is not propaganda, it's basic life-of-Muhammad stuff. What do you dispute?

Tasha? hmm...i am so offended and heartbroken :cool:

geez. i am not even sure if Prophet ever left Arabia. what empire are you talking about?

No, not particularly. This thread is about Islamist extremists. I don't consider "the entire Muslim population" to be among that group.

as long as you consider Islam to be their true reason to ack fascistic and cruel and since all Muslims believe in Qur'an....yes, that's what you are doing IMO.

Sorry, that's just flat out wrong, and I think you know that. Tasha, stop and think for a minute. How do you conquer hundreds of square miles and establish a great Caliphate defending your self? That makes no sense. I didn't say any of those things. Read my post. Please focus. Islamist radical. Radical Islamists. Are most Muslim women radical Islamists who support Al Qaeda, hizbollah and Muslim Brotherhood?
Facts. Muslims sold Africans as slaves for centuries. I'm guessing you learned history from Muslim propagandists? Have you ever read any nuetral, qualified historians about the life and deeds of Muhammad?

Islam has ended a few old pre-Islamic traditions and slavery was one of them. it was long before West side of the world started selling people.

neutral historian? let me guess... they can time travel. they never take any information from Islamic sources. i wonder..... how could they even begin to think about it without Islamic sources?

well...Tasha can stop and think. i won't stop but i will think. btw my name is .lava around here :)

Do you believe other religion's propaganda? Why would we believe yours?
First, eye for an eye is not moral progress. Second, are you saying they raided Muhammad's caravan?

i don't mind what you believe. i am just stating my point.

try to find out why Mohammad SAW has lived in poverty and left this Earth in poverty. we know that his wife had to borrow oil to light candle (it's not called candle but i can't recall the name in English, sorry) in their home shortly before he left the planet.

well, Tasha. it's been nice talking to you

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Wotan

Active Member
Muslims were involved in the slave trade will after 1000AD. It may be said that those owning or trading slave were "not true Muslims."

But then we've all heard that fallacy before.
 

.lava

Veteran Member
Muslims were involved in the slave trade will after 1000AD. It may be said that those owning or trading slave were "not true Muslims."

But then we've all heard that fallacy before.

try to find a better angle to look at this reality then. magic is forbidden in Islam and considered as a sin but there are Muslims who's involved with magic even today. i would not know if they are true Muslims or not since a man who drinks alcohol could be a 'sinner' Muslim but i can easily say they are not following commands of God as it is written in Qur'an. get it? well, i do hope so ..

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