Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Because they do.
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The qur'an and Islamic terrorism
- Thread starter Autodidact
- Start date
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Actually, Islam means submission. And actually, they sound violent because killing is violent.
Non sequitor anyone?
Please what?
Wotan
Active Member
Because they ARE?
And we have your holy book that says so.
And all you guys offer is excuses. Bad translation, not correctly understood, taught the wrong message, mistreated by bullies.
But not one of you - not a single one - has denied the clear intent of the words. Any way you read it any translation you get any common understanding in any language - the intent is clear pure and obvious. HATE. Hate for any and all who don't share your belief in your mythology.
We had one of your fellow believers posting here not so long ago who was honest enough to say so.
And what was the response from the rest of you?
Silence.
sonofskeptish
It is what it is
Yup, that about sums it up.
truth
this is a good point as well. the fact that Islam doesn't have a clear-cut clergy and culture is so deeply intertwined with religion doesn't help either.
dude, i'm not going to admit to something that is not true. the single biggest problem in Islamic culture today is IGNORANCE and ILLITERACY. wrong people have gotten into power and have frustrated, raped and pillaged its people. poverty, ignorance, and desperation are extremely dangerous. when people feel they have nothing to lose, they'll do anything.
you are refusing to read and learn from those who have explained verse for verse what is being discussed (Badran for example). one can't convince the unconvincable.
what silence do you see? i've seen a few Muslims reply to this thread. i guess you won't be satisfied until you hear one of us say that the Qur'an teaches us to hate non-Muslims and wants us to kill them all.
well, that ain't gonna happen either.
EtuMalku
Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
:sw: Couldn't agree with you any more, well said.
The Muslim faith needs a voice, someone who can represent this religion and put everyone's mind at rest. Clear up the disinformation and answer questions.
The Muslim faith needs a voice, someone who can represent this religion and put everyone's mind at rest. Clear up the disinformation and answer questions.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Hmmm, so you are basically saying that the god of the NT is different from the god of the OT? Ok then. So, do you worship both of them or only the god of the NT?
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Since I started this I guess I should pipe in now and then
Plenty of hate and evil in the New Testament too
EM
Wow, talk about taking something out of context! In this verse, Jesus is QUOTING the Old Testament! And you only took one line out of Matthew 15:4-7. The complete text is:
1Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2"Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!"
3Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4For God said, 'Honor your father and mother'[a] and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'[b] 5But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' 6he is not to 'honor his father[c]' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.'[d]"
10Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand. 11What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' "
12Then the disciples came to him and asked, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?"
13He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. 14Leave them; they are blind guides.[e] If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."
15Peter said, "Explain the parable to us." 16"Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them. 17"Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' "
Jesus was speaking about the SPIRIT - not the LETTER - of the Old Testament law, explaining that it's principle that matters, not legalistic application.
This is a PARABLE and in this parable, these are the words of ruthless king, NOT the teachings of Jesus:
11While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. 12He said: "A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. 13So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas.[a]'Put this money to work,' he said, 'until I come back.'
14"But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, 'We don't want this man to be our king.'
15"He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it.
16"The first one came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned ten more.'
17" 'Well done, my good servant!' his master replied. 'Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.'
18"The second came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned five more.'
19"His master answered, 'You take charge of five cities.'
20"Then another servant came and said, 'Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. 21I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.'
22"His master replied, 'I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? 23Why then didn't you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?'
24"Then he said to those standing by, 'Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.'
25" 'Sir,' they said, 'he already has ten!' 26"He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. 27But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over thembring them here and kill them in front of me."
This is not a command - this is what Jesus sees as the inevitable outcome when people stand on principle and do what is right. He is speaking to his twelve disciples about how difficult it will be to follow Him and how it will create division within their JEWISH families.
Same scenario as Matthew 15 - described again in Mark.
Wow - talk about a SNIPPET. Here's what it REALLY says:
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[i] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
25Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sistersyes, even his own lifehe cannot be my disciple. 27And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.
Luke 14:26 falls into a category of "extreme language," the language of absoluteness used to express a preference, and may refer to disattachment, indifference, or nonattachment without any feelings of revulsion involved. To seal this matter completely, let's look at some parallel materials which prove our point. The closest example comes from Genesis 29:30-1:
And he went in also unto Rachel, and he loved also Rachel more than Leah, and served with him yet seven other years. And when the LORD saw that Leah was hated, he opened her womb: but Rachel was barren.
Here, "hated" is clearly used synonymously with one who is loved less. Let it be added that if Jacob hated Leah in a literal way, it is hardly believable that he would consent to take her as his wife at all. (See also Judges 14:16 and Deut. 21:15-17.) Now here is another example from Jesus, Luke 16:13:
No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.
Such extremes of feeling would be atypical, but the extremes are not meant to be taken literally; the point is that one master will get more dedicated labor than the other. As I stated in my first post - nowhere in the New Testament are Christians told to seek or instigate actual war with ANYONE. This contrasts sharply with the teachings in the Koran.
.lava
Veteran Member
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Because the people who are doing it describe it that way. That's my point.
.lava
Veteran Member
.lava
Veteran Member
so their word is more trust worthy than ours? how come? is that because they say what you're willing to and expect to hear? how could you trust word of a guy who kills and tortures anyway?
.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
My view is that a religion is whatever its adherents say it is. Just as you have an opinion as to what "True Islam" is, so do they, and they have just as much a right to theirs as you do to yours. To me, there is no right answer about that, and I'm not interested in being dragged into a discussion as to what "True Islam" is. There are as many Islams as there are Muslims. That's not going to get us anywhere.
My question is, do the words of the qur'an form any part of the motivation of radical Muslims, the kind of people who are willing to kill and die for their view of Allah.
Rather than argue with me about whether their understanding of Islam is correct, let's try to figure out what's going on in their minds, what is causing their actions, so we can start figuring out what to do about it.
My perception is that they are motivated by their understanding of Islam, including the qur'an, hadith, and life of the prophet, and history of Islam. My impression is that their goal is to create and increase the Muslim Caliphate to encompass as much of the world as possible, to bring as large an area as possible under Muslim rule, and to impose Sharia law, dhimmi-status, collect jyizza from any people in that area who do not convert to Islam.
I think they seek to do this because that is their understanding of the proper goal of any true Muslim.
I am not trying to figure out whether they are right. That is up to you Muslims. If you disagree with them, you should be challenging them--if you dare.
They are dangerous people, and particularly dangerous to other Muslims who disagree with them.
So, to answer your question, I respect their right to determine what their religion is and says, just as I respect yours.
Wotan
Active Member
Be careful you don't break your arm patting yourself on your back.
But if you can break away from self-congratulatory celebrations for a minute look back at what you and the other defenders of this myth have posted.
WHERE in any of those posts - or on the "Islam will Dominate" thread - is there a single word denying that your myth tells you to dominate the world?
Cite it. I dare you.
Whatever you think you believe, whatever the "moderate" Muslims actually DO believe there is a stunning silence from your faithful fellow believers. VERY few of you in public at least, have uttered a single syllable of protest against these "radicals" who are so mis-representing your faith.
We will start taking your protests about US seriously when YOU start making some protests of your own about those 'not true Muslims' and their "mis-reading" of your mythology.
Be careful you don't break your arm patting yourself on your back.
But if you can break away from self-congratulatory celebrations for a minute look back at what you and the other defenders of this myth have posted.
WHERE in any of those posts - or on the "Islam will Dominate" thread - is there a single word denying that your myth tells you to dominate the world?
Cite it. I dare you.
Whatever you think you believe, whatever the "moderate" Muslims actually DO believe there is a stunning silence from your faithful fellow believers. VERY few of you in public at least, have uttered a single syllable of protest against these "radicals" who are so mis-representing your faith.
We will start taking your protests about US seriously when YOU start making some protests of your own about those 'not true Muslims' and their "mis-reading" of your mythology.
i haven't seen the "Islam will Dominate" thread (i'll check it out next)...but i have spoken out several times, as has Badran and .lava, against the radicals who are warping Qur'anic teachings to suit their needs. please run a search on my posts and you'll see how many times i have condemned their actions. until then, don't accuse those which you don't know.
the Muslims who speak out against the radicals aren't televised or covered; it doesn't make for sensational news stories.
i don't deny that Qur'anic teachings call for implementing Shariah; that would be lying. however, the methodology, timing, and execution of such has to be done at a certain time and place. that time and place IS NOT NOW, and those who think it is are delusional.
Wotan
Active Member
WOW! Talk about equivocation and denial.
And not a single cite. Just a "look it up" claim. Why am I not surprised?
I'll tell you the time and place for you Shariah Son. Never! And NOWHERE in any civilized society.:no::no::no:
WOW! Talk about equivocation and denial.
And not a single cite. Just a "look it up" claim. Why am I not surprised?
I'll tell you the time and place for you Shariah Son. Never! And NOWHERE in any civilized society.:no::no::no:
1) i'm not a SON. i'm a grown mother of six beautiful daughters, so watch yourself.
2) where's the equivocation and denial? i found the other thread, and it's a million pages long and started by 301ouncer.
give me some time, sir. 3) i didn't want to crowd a thread with MY posts,
4) you have the right to that opinion, and i agree. i'm not so sure i'd want Shariah law everywhere either unless and until it is fully understood and modified to current times.
just so you'll stop being so angry, here:
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...6-muslim-anti-terrorism-camp.html#post2114291
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...attend-62nd-ahmadiyya-muslim.html#post2097724
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...attend-62nd-ahmadiyya-muslim.html#post2095749
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/historical-debates/99544-palestine-israel-3.html#post2094399
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...than-2-5m-muslims-threaten-2.html#post2088575
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...s-seem-flock-online-forums-2.html#post2087733
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...r-al-awlaki-puts-everybody-2.html#post2083434
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...71-female-arab-talks-sense-8.html#post2083296
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...ban-behead-11-shia-afghans-2.html#post2071272
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...ittle-girls-clitorises-ivy-4.html#post2069670
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...ristians-muslims-hate-jews-3.html#post2069443
there are a ton of posts where i have agreed wholeheartedly with others who have condemned radicals (including Kathryn) but if i posted my response only, it wouldn't make sense.
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WHERE in any of those posts - or on the "Islam will Dominate" thread - is there a single word denying that your myth tells you to dominate the world?
Cite it. I dare you.
You missed a whole lot of muslim posts then, because what you think we don't do, we do a lot.
ssainhu already posted some examples on muslims condemning terrorism and the acts of the radicals. Here is a couple about sharia:
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Hello, this thread isn't about moderate Muslims. It's about radical Muslims. Any thoughts?