Are you really a monotheist if you believe in angels?

Tiapan · Jul 3, 2010

The Abrahamic religions define themselves by their monotheism, it is a corner stone of their doctrine, yet they concurrently believe in angels and many other supernatural entities.

A god is super natural and not human, an angel is supernatural and not human, are they not both "godlike" with similar properties. It seems the only difference is the hierarchical ladder of power with restrictions on lower limits, so the term God was modified from the family of godlike species to indicate only the top dog of the species. Is this a fair interpretation of the term "God".

As I see it there is a very close correlation between modern monotheistic and ancient polytheistic cultures, where a God ruled a mythical world of lesser gods. Consider the parallel God=Ra=Jupiter=Zeus=Wotan etc, and Gabrielle gods messenger = Mercury the gods messenger etc.

The Romans defined Mercury as a god, however the Jews and therefore Christians and Muslims demoted their definitions of these lesser gods so now they are angels, is there actually a difference other than semantics?

I wont mention Cherabims, Seraphim, Satan, Archangels etc etc.

Is this not polytheism in disguise?

Cheers

eliehass · Jul 18, 2010

No, at least as far as judiasm is concerned. In judiasm, angels are seen as beings that are "supernatural", but they have no free will. They can do nothing but carry out the express will of God. So angels are not God-like at all.

st_worm2 · Aug 8, 2010

Tiapan said:
A god is super natural and not human, an angel is supernatural and not human, are they not both "godlike" with similar properties.

Cheers

Hi Tiapan, as for Christianity, we definitely see many differences in the supernatural being we call "God", and the supernatural servants He created that we refer to, in general, as "angels". Here are but a few of those differences:

1. God is: Without beginning or end. He is. Angels are created beings.
2. God is: Omnipresent. Angels are "sent" beings, messengers who move to and fro throughout the Earth, occupying a single place in both time and space.
3. God is: Immutable. Angels are capable of righteous or sinful behavior (Holy -v- Fallen angels ... or demons).
4. God is: Omniscient. Angels have limited knowledge.
5. God is: Omnipotent. Angels are powerful beings to be sure, some much more than others, but even lowly humans can exert great power over them through the use of the tools that God gave us ... principally, The Bible.
6. God is our Judge. We will judge the angels.

That barely scratches the surface but, at least from the Christian perspective, I think you can see that we believe there are certainly vast differences between the person of God and His angels.

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - I chose to not include Scriptural references but would be happy to provide them for part or all of the statements above if you'd like.

fatima_bintu_islam · Aug 8, 2010

eliehass said:
No, at least as far as judiasm is concerned. In judiasm, angels are seen as beings that are "supernatural", but they have no free will. They can do nothing but carry out the express will of God. So angels are not God-like at all.

100% agreed

st_worm2 · Aug 8, 2010

eliehass said:
In judiasm, angels are seen as beings that are "supernatural", but they have no free will. They can do nothing but carry out the express will of God.

Hi Eliehass, so in Judaism, there are no "fallen" angels? Although far more prevalent in the New Testament, what Christians refer to as the Old Testament hardly seems void of at least some references to these beings (esp. Satan). For instance:

1. The serpent (Satan) in Genesis 3 in the garden of God
2. Satan (the angelic being) in Job 1, 2
3. Satan in Ezekiel 28:12-19
4. Satan's fall described in Isaiah 14:12-14
5. Michael the Archangel and (perhaps) Gabriel at war with Satan in Daniel 10
6. Satan tempting David in 1 Chronicles 21 to number the people

What does Judaism recognize these passages as saying?

Thanks!

--David
p.s. - Fatima, if you don't mind, how would Islam answer some (or all) of the questions I posed above? Thanks!

fatima_bintu_islam · Aug 8, 2010

st_worm2 said:
p.s. - Fatima, if you don't mind, how would Islam answer some (or all) of the questions I posed above? Thanks!

Of course I would me more than glad to answer your questions ... if only I understood them

I hope you dont mind rephrasing your questions as english is my second language or your question was too much complex

Best regards

Madhuri · Aug 8, 2010

I think the answer is quite evident. What is God? God is Creator. What are the angels and other beings you referred to? Creations of God. Just like everything is.
That's why it is called God- everything comes from it.

TashaN · Aug 8, 2010

Tiapan said:
The Abrahamic religions define themselves by their monotheism, it is a corner stone of their doctrine, yet they concurrently believe in angels and many other supernatural entities.

A god is super natural and not human, an angel is supernatural and not human, are they not both "godlike" with similar properties. It seems the only difference is the hierarchical ladder of power with restrictions on lower limits, so the term God was modified from the family of godlike species to indicate only the top dog of the species. Is this a fair interpretation of the term "God".

As I see it there is a very close correlation between modern monotheistic and ancient polytheistic cultures, where a God ruled a mythical world of lesser gods. Consider the parallel God=Ra=Jupiter=Zeus=Wotan etc, and Gabrielle gods messenger = Mercury the gods messenger etc.

The Romans defined Mercury as a god, however the Jews and therefore Christians and Muslims demoted their definitions of these lesser gods so now they are angels, is there actually a difference other than semantics?

I wont mention Cherabims, Seraphim, Satan, Archangels etc etc.

Is this not polytheism in disguise?

Cheers

The similarities is no secret between Monotheism and other belief systems or philosophical views and many philosophers have attempted to explain why.

But in short, the similarity in some aspects can't be used as a proof that Monothiesm is Polytheism in disguise for so many reasons.

Rakhel · Aug 8, 2010

Don't know how Eliehass will answer these questions but here is my take on them

st_worm2 said:
:

1. The serpent (Satan) in Genesis 3 in the garden of God

It is just a serpent

2. Satan (the angelic being) in Job 1, 2

He is much like a prosecutor in a trial

3. Satan in Ezekiel 28:12-19

Not too sure where you got Satan from these verses. I looked at both the Hebrew and Christian versions and only saw where this was talking about the son of Tyre

4. Satan's fall described in Isaiah 14:12-14

This is a common misinterpretation. These verses are talking about the about the King of Babylon. His kingdom being to the east of Jerusalem is would make sense to call him son of the morning star. Further, as with most early kingdoms, the king was believed to be the son of a god.

5. Michael the Archangel and (perhaps) Gabriel at war with Satan in Daniel 10

A battle with Persia

6. Satan tempting David in 1 Chronicles 21 to number the people

This one I cannot answer. Not because there is no answer, but because I do not know enough to answer it. I know that it is related to another verse where it said G-d told David to make the count. Someone more learned will be answer this better than I can

st_worm2 · Aug 8, 2010

fatima_bintu_islam said:
Of course I would me more than glad to answer your questions ... if only I understood them

I hope you dont mind rephrasing your questions as english is my second language or your question was too much complex

Best regards

Hi Fatima, let me try this again. You (and Eliehass) spoke of angels as beings who have no free will of their own. But the Bible seems to say that angels do have a will of their own as it mentions some who have fallen into sin and followed Lucifer (or Satan), the first fallen angel, rather than God. This is all much more replete and the teaching often more didactic in the New Testament, but I did site a number of passages from the Old Testament that mention Satan or another demonic (or "fallen") angel at work in this world ... and therefore angels who chose, of their own free will, to disobey God.

My questions are, if angels do not have free wills, how could they chose to sin ... as they appear to have been able to do in the mentioned passages? Also, how does Islam interpret these passages if it does not believe angels have free wills of their own?

I hope that's easier to understand. If not, let me know and I'll try again.

--David

fatima_bintu_islam · Aug 8, 2010

Yes, it is easier now , thanks for the clarification

Also, how does Islam interpret these passages if it does not believe angels have free wills of their own?

First of all, Ill have to tell you that in Islam we think that previous holy books have been corrupted, so we do not prove or deny whats in it, we only do prove whats in Quran.

Now regarding angels having free will in Islam : then no, they dont. All they do is following ALlah's orders.

However, there was two angels called Harut and Marut who were making comparisons as to how humans are alwyas sinning while angles never do. So Allah put in their hearts the desires of women: desire for sex, desire for harming , and sent them down to earth. And they sinned.

Therefore, this particular story was a test and a sign for those two angles that they are free of sin only because Allah wanted them to, if He wanted them to have human desires they would have sinned too.

Hope it helps,

Best regards

Fatima Zahrae

st_worm2 · Aug 8, 2010

rakhel said:
Not too sure where you got Satan from these verses.

This one I cannot answer. Not because there is no answer, but because I do not know enough to answer it. I know that it is related to another verse where it said G-d told David to make the count. Someone more learned will be answer this better than I can

Hi Rakhel, I believe you need the assistance of the New Testament writers, who through ancient Hebrew tradition and/or the direct revelation of God, gave a more complete picture of the verses mentioned. Of course I realize that as a Jew, you would be disinclined to take the New Testament as authoritative in this .. or any other matter. However, let me get back to you (with examples and questions directly from some of these verses) as I think you will have to agree that these passages cannot all be so easily dismissed as simply a story about this king or that kingdom, but clearly have a spiritual AND even supernatural side to them as well ... clearly evident w/o the help of the NT.

Yours and His,
David

st_worm2 · Aug 8, 2010

fatima_bintu_islam said:
Yes, it is easier now , thanks for the clarification
First of all, Ill have to tell you that in Islam we think that previous holy books have been corrupted, so we do not prove or deny whats in it, we only do prove whats in Quran.
Now regarding angels having free will in Islam : then no, they dont. All they do is following ALlah's orders.
However, there was two angels called Harut and Marut who were making comparisons as to how humans are alwyas sinning while angles never do. So Allah put in their hearts the desires of women: desire for sex, desire for harming , and sent them down to earth. And they sinned.
Therefore, this particular story was a test and a sign for those two angles that they are free of sin only because Allah wanted them to, if He wanted them to have human desires they would have sinned too.

Hope it helps,

Best regards
Fatima Zahrae

Yes, I've run into this problem with Islam and the "other" Holy Books being corrupted by man. Perhaps this is something that needs to be discussed in another thread? Also, is this teaching directly from the Quran?

Lastly (for now), you said that Harut and Marut were given the "desires of women". I'm specifically interested in the desire to "harm"? What does that mean? Also, are the desires of women seen as being somehow different than the desires of men in Islam?

Thanks for your help

Kindest Regards,
David

Levite · Aug 9, 2010

st_worm2 said:
Hi Rakhel, I believe you need the assistance of the New Testament writers, who through ancient Hebrew tradition and/or the direct revelation of God, gave a more complete picture of the verses mentioned. Of course I realize that as a Jew, you would be disinclined to take the New Testament as authoritative in this .. or any other matter. However, let me get back to you (with examples and questions directly from some of these verses) as I think you will have to agree that these passages cannot all be so easily dismissed as simply a story about this king or that kingdom, but clearly have a spiritual AND even supernatural side to them as well ... clearly evident w/o the help of the NT.

Yours and His,
David

I have to back Rakhel on this. She's quite right. There are a few commentators who speculate that the snake had some sort of higher spiritual property, but basically, the tradition says it was a snake. The verses you cite are read purely as the comments of the prophets on people and events in their lifetimes, or are mystical in nature but having nothing to do with angels, fallen or otherwise.

The accepted Jewish traditions of angelology have all been fairly clear: angels were created by God. They have no free will of their own.

And with all due respect, I am sure I can safely say that no Jew would ever accept any supporting prooftexts from the New Testament. For us, that work has no spiritual significance, no holiness, and no relevance to sacred text. I am certainly not suggesting that it shouldn't be holy for Christians: we have no problem with it as Christian scripture, for Christians. We just don't believe it has anything to do with Judaism or Jewish scripture.

fatima_bintu_islam · Aug 9, 2010

st_worm2 said:
Yes, I've run into this problem with Islam and the "other" Holy Books being corrupted by man. Perhaps this is something that needs to be discussed in another thread? Also, is this teaching directly from the Quran? (1)

Lastly (for now), you said that Harut and Marut were given the "desires of women". I'm specifically interested in the desire to "harm"? What does that mean? Also, are the desires of women seen as being somehow different than the desires of men in Islam? (2)

Thanks for your help

Kindest Regards,
David

(Bold part 2)

It made me laugh , what I actually meant was the desire FOR women i.e sexual desire

(Bold part 1): Directly from Quran And from other proofs such as obvious contradictions in Bible, multiple versions of it and other stuffs for jews. But I guess this is not the right thread to talk about and Im not the right person to talk about it

Best regards

Fatima Zahrae

HiddenDjinn · Aug 9, 2010

As far as Satan tempting David, that was his job, to tempt, then prosecute those who fall short.

HiddenDjinn · Aug 9, 2010

I'll further add that Satan tempting people is no indication that he is behaving independently of HaShem. That is shown throughout the book of Job, where he asked for permission to do each thing he did.

fatima_bintu_islam · Aug 10, 2010

yosi said:
I'll further add that Satan tempting people is no indication that he is behaving independently of HaShem. That is shown throughout the book of Job, where he asked for permission to do each thing he did.

Do Jews believe that Satan was an angel?

horntooth · Aug 10, 2010

(neo)platonism is, for example, called "pagan", yet, it is monotheistic. the just call their "angels"- "gods".

"monarchical polytheism", and "monist polytheism" are two terms for traditions that are generally considered polytheistic, but are essentially monotheistic.

Terrywoodenpic · Aug 10, 2010

Angels are just one of the Heavenly Host, all are subject to God.
If we believed in Gin as the Muslims do they to would be subject to God.

Are you really a monotheist if you believe in angels?

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