Lack of Evidence?

joeboonda said:

No there is not lack of credible evidence, its quite abundant, do I really have to list stuff? Not trying to be cold, but the info is out there.

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Well, you may not want to list things, but provide links (or reasonable quotes) to reputable scientists that would make the cases you're making.

Most atheists (and many evolution accepting christians) have read creationist claims, as well as proper scientific information. I suggest you research evolution before you claim that it can be easily explained away. You say you were exposed to it through mass media, but (judging by your location) you may not have been taught it properly in the classroom setting. I, too, am from the south, and even public school teachers can let their bais slip out in the classroom. Seriously: research all sides, not just your side. As I posted in another thread: Tree rings can be consistently dated back 10,000 years which predates most Young Earth Creationists' universe by over 2 thousand.

Back on topic: To elaborate on my first post, I would have to say that the only way I would believe the God of the OT, NT, or Koran is if he personally talked to me, and explained his actions, recorded therein. I don't really mean a personal revelation, though that may work, but really would prefer a physical, tangible, concrete conversation. If he could give me good enough reasons for acting the way he does, I would believe he exists. I probably still wouldn't worship him, though. Even if he did create everything, that doesn't give him the right to harm his creations.

To draw an analogue, does anyone here watch the new episodes of Stargate SG1? They encountered a race of ascended beings that act much like the Abrahamic Gods, they are powerful, enlightened, and demand worship.

In a way, I think the demand of worship alone sort of detracts from your deserving of it.

Deut. 32.8 said:

Lack of evidence, contempt for the God-of-the-Gaps, and a deep appreciation for the power of methodological naturalism.

What causes you to not believe in Pixies?

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what makes you believe I don't ?:biglaugh:

OH, haw haw, yup I live in the south , haw haw, I am an ignorant hillbilly. Dude, I have lived in Pennsylvania, Michigan, Ohio, Kentucky, Georgia, Illinois, and Tennessee, some of those states I lived in twice OH, PA, and TN. my education is quite broad, so, whatever!

The oldest living tree is about 4200 years old, the oldest living coral reef is about 4200 years old, the Sahara desert is 4200 years old, which takes us back to the flood.

Explain to me the Bombadier Beetle of Florida, a frog catches it in its mouth and it shoots two separate chemical out of two separate tubes that once combined create a chemical explosion thus the frog releases it. Now how was that not designed??? Did beetles explode randomly for "millions" of years trying to get it right? Don't think so.

How do bees know to give the queen the royal jelly for a long life, or to make honey or combs, and to keep the temperature just right? THere is design in nature, thus requiring an intelligent designer, or can a house just evolve if given enought "time"? No, it needs an architect. Enough examples for now.

Worship?? The Bible says that all of creation declares the glory of God, all things were made for His glory. Worship is nothing more than acknowleging and thanking the one who gave us life, as he is worthy of our returned love to him. You remind me of the rich man Jesus spoke of who wanted them to warn his brothers, Abraham said even if one were to come back from the dead ( oh, and Jesus did!) they would still not believe.

THe evidence is abundant, you just choose not to honestly look for it. God have mercy on you.-

dorsk188 said:

Well, you may not want to list things, but provide links (or reasonable quotes) to reputable scientists that would make the cases you're making.

Most atheists (and many evolution accepting christians) have read creationist claims, as well as proper scientific information. I suggest you research evolution before you claim that it can be easily explained away. You say you were exposed to it through mass media, but (judging by your location) you may not have been taught it properly in the classroom setting. I, too, am from the south, and even public school teachers can let their bais slip out in the classroom. Seriously: research all sides, not just your side. As I posted in another thread: Tree rings can be consistently dated back 10,000 years which predates most Young Earth Creationists' universe by over 2 thousand.

Back on topic: To elaborate on my first post, I would have to say that the only way I would believe the God of the OT, NT, or Koran is if he personally talked to me, and explained his actions, recorded therein. I don't really mean a personal revelation, though that may work, but really would prefer a physical, tangible, concrete conversation. If he could give me good enough reasons for acting the way he does, I would believe he exists. I probably still wouldn't worship him, though. Even if he did create everything, that doesn't give him the right to harm his creations.

To draw an analogue, does anyone here watch the new episodes of Stargate SG1? They encountered a race of ascended beings that act much like the Abrahamic Gods, they are powerful, enlightened, and demand worship.

In a way, I think the demand of worship alone sort of detracts from your deserving of it.

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joeboonda said:

OH, haw haw, yup I live in the south , haw haw, I am an ignorant hillbilly. Dude, I have lived in Pennsylvania, Michigan, Ohio, Kentucky, Georgia, Illinois, and Tennessee, some of those states I lived in twice OH, PA, and TN. my education is quite broad, so, whatever!

The oldest living tree is about 4200 years old, the oldest living coral reef is about 4200 years old, the Sahara desert is 4200 years old, which takes us back to the flood.

Explain to me the Bombadier Beetle of Florida, a frog catches it in its mouth and it shoots two separate chemical out of two separate tubes that once combined create a chemical explosion thus the frog releases it. Now how was that not designed??? Did beetles explode randomly for "millions" of years trying to get it right? Don't think so.

How do bees know to give the queen the royal jelly for a long life, or to make honey or combs, and to keep the temperature just right? THere is design in nature, thus requiring an intelligent designer, or can a house just evolve if given enought "time"? No, it needs an architect. Enough examples for now.

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You continue to reason from a false premise, joeboonda, even your term "design" implies intentionality.

There is order and function in Nature and there is tremendous complexity.There are explanations of how this came about employing only the laws of chemistry and physics. If you choose not to look into them, well, there are none so blind...

so you think this just happenned by accident? there are none so blind...

Joeboonda,
Maybe you should first check out the FAQ at the talkorigins website. They've dispatched with the young earth creationist points pretty effectively. If afterwards you still have a valid case then I strongly urge you to write your findings up and submit them to a peer-reviewed scientific journal such as Science or Nature. Professional geologists, climatologists, chemists, physicists, anthropologists, archeologists, historians and linguists can validate your interpretations with the current and historical data.

I'm not sure what category proving a "Global flood" falls into but surely you would be nominated for some type of Nobel Prize. There is a pretty decent cash award (more than $100K) but be prepared for constant travel and speaking engagements which can be quite a strain. I worked with a Nobel laureate (1979), he was a very busy guy even 20 years after the award. If you don't feel that you have enough background to do the write up, perhaps you could ask one of the world class "scientists" over at the Institute for Creation Reasearch, Answers in Genesis, or Discovery Institute to give you a hand. There is nothing stopping you from turning the scientific world upside down and defeating the atheistic conspiracy!

Mister Emu said:

Because I have had contact with neither Zues nor any of the greek pantheon, nor Brahma or any of their pantheon, however the same can not be said of the Lord.

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Excellent, Mister Emu. Now, read carefully: I have had contact with one fewer god than you have. If Zeus, or Thor, or Brahman, or YHWH, or the Easter Bunny "made contact" with me, I would believe in them. I do not believe in YHWH for the exact same reason that you do not believe in Zeus. I'm not attacking your belief here. I'm just trying to help you (and Victor, who started this thread) understand why I do not share your belief. I hope I have done so.

Victor said:

MS, and anyone else wanting to claim that the Bible contradicts itself why not just ask us what it means?

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I do ask, I just don't find the answers convincing, just as you do not find the answers that Mormons or Muslims or Pagans give in their apologetics convincing. I find that the most plausible and parsimonious explanation is that the Koran, Greek mythology, the Book of Mormon, the Bible, etc. are ancient texts written by ancient people, and thus they can be admired and appreciated for what they are, rather than stressing over futile attempts to reconcile the writings of many authors redacted over many years. Beowulf doesn't make much sense, either.....but it's still a compelling story.

Victor said:

Interpretation is everything and even among atheist you will see varying interpretations. It proves nothing but that the Bible has areas in which are not clear.
Even if it was flawless under your own standards, you would still "lack belief". This whole contradiction argument is not gonna you anywhere with theists.

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To be fair, I did not say that contradictions within any text constitutes evidence against any deity/deities.

Pah said:

That wonder from that diversity is strong evidence of a subjective God - which I do endorse.

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*hugs this sentence and holds it close to her heart*

cmotdiddler, thanks for your reply. Glad you know of some creation science organizations, can't say I agree their theories have been dispatched with that well.

Guys, from a fundamental christian viewpoint, a main line of thought, is that by one man, Adam, sin entered the world, and by one man, Jesus, sin was paid for, is the root for belief in Adam and Eve, the creation story, and the flood. Linealogies are traced all the way to Adam, Jesus acknowledged Adam in his speaking,. If one does not believe the book of Genesis, then he makes Jesus and Paul out to be liars, which they were not.

So, I look at things from a biblical perspective, as I believe the prophecies, scientific statements, medical statements, the Bible's amazing unity, preservation, and historical accuracy, archeological findings, scientific findings, etc. prove the Bible is true and so I use it as my plumb-line in testing everything else.

Throughout history, people have left the faith because of some "scientific finding" that supposedly went against the Bible, only to find that that "finding" was proven incorrect later, and the Bible still held true.

Timothy 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called. IITimothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap unto themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.(like evolution)

Romans 1:22 about people who turned from God to their own ways: "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools."

joeboonda said:

so you think this just happenned by accident? there are none so blind...

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How much have you researched? And I'm not talking about the bible.

So is God playing tricks on all the scientists, or is it that scientists are all evil and playing tricks on everyone?

Cynic said:

How much have you researched? And I'm not talking about the bible.

So is God playing tricks on all the scientists, or is it that scientists are all evil and playing tricks on everyone?

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Neither actually.

Well, I have studied quite a bit, actually, and I think most scientists are good honest men seeking truth. There are 2 kinds of science: operational (process) and historical. Operational involves doing experiments in the present and has given us many wonderful things, like computers, etc. Historical science is not so easily measured, as we cannot do direct experiments on things that happenned in the past, and the further back you go the more room for variables and unknowns to effect it. So, many times with historical science, one's worldview may come into play resulting in different conclusions.

I may add that science began to fluorish when the biblical view of creation took root in Europe as the Reformation spread its influence. The presuppositions that enabled a scientific approach to investigating the world- that the created universe is real, consistent, understandable, and possible to investigate, for example, came from the Bible. Even non-Christian historians of science have acknowledged this. Consequently, almost every branch of science was either founded, co-founded, or dramatically advanced by scientists who believed in the Bible's account of creation and the flood. And there are many scientists today who believe the Bible.

By the way, how much have you researched, and I AM talking about the Bible. Here are a couple "scientific" statements in the Bible: (just for fun)

Isaiah 40:42 that the earth is round

Job 26:7 that the earth is suspended in space without support

Genesis 15:5 the stars are countless ( scientists used to say there were ____ # of stars)

Not too mention the hydrologic cycle, sea currents, living things reproduce after their own kind, insights into health, hygiene, diet, the importance of blood -the life is in the blood,(Leviticus 17:11), the first and second laws of thermodynamics(Isa 51:6) and so much more.

The Jews were told to wash their hands in running water (way before scientists discovered germs), to cover their water and food bowls, to bury their excrement outside the camp, to quarantine the sick ( by the way that is how they stopped the Black Plague, a doctor read the Bible, imagine that) and again, so much more is in there even though the Bible is not a science book.

Trust me, I didn't leave my brain at the door to become a Christian, and no I am not the world's authority on all scientific matters, but I do enjoy learning all I can, when I can, thanks, and peace!

Pick up one or two of Steven J Gould's collections of essays, joeboonda. They're easy reads, amusing and actually very interesting. They discuss the science, scientists, maths, methodology and conclusions of evolutionary biology and paleontology.

You'll like them -- really.

joeboonda said:

OH, haw haw, yup I live in the south , haw haw, I am an ignorant hillbilly. Dude, I have lived in Pennsylvania, Michigan, Ohio, Kentucky, Georgia, Illinois, and Tennessee, some of those states I lived in twice OH, PA, and TN. my education is quite broad, so, whatever!

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Dude, sensitive much? I was merely expressing the possibility that you weren't properly exposed to evolution (something I would still assert). I didn't contend that you were an ignorant hillbilly, and AS I STATED I am from the south, myself.

joeboonda said:

The oldest living tree is about 4200 years old, the oldest living coral reef is about 4200 years old, the Sahara desert is 4200 years old, which takes us back to the flood.

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Thank you for NOT attempting to learn about dendrochronology (tree ring dating). By studying the width of the tree ring for a certain year, you can determine how long the growing season was. By examining older wood, from structures built of older wood, you can sync up the two trees (as long as they grew in a similar geography). Doing this:

Fully anchored chronologies which extend back more than 10000 years exist for river oak trees from South Germany (from the Main and Rhine rivers). A fully anchored chronology which extends back 8500 years exists for the bristlecone pine in the southwest US (White Mountains of California).

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_ring
Please make some effort to research your claims before you make them.

joeboonda said:

Explain to me...

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All of those things are explainable through the modern understanding of evolution. If you don't want to do the research, that's your decision.
talkorigins.org is a good resource for "Evidence of Evolution or Creation."
You should check out Evolution vs. Creation threads for this argument.

joeboonda said:

Worship?? The Bible says that all of creation declares the glory of God, all things were made for His glory. Worship is nothing more than acknowleging and thanking the one who gave us life, as he is worthy of our returned love to him.

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A god that DEMANDS worship, as the OT/NT/Koran indicates, has an inflated ego. As I said, demanding worship makes a being less worthy of it.

joeboonda said:

You remind me of the rich man Jesus spoke of...

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You remind me of 40% of Americans.

joeboonda said:

THe evidence is abundant, you just choose not to honestly look for it. God have mercy on you.

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I challenge you, too, to read something that you DON'T necessarily agree with. Steven J. Gould is a good choice.

When science supposedy contradicts the Bible, I will stick with the Bible, and we can see what happens in the end. The preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who won't believe, but God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to confound the wise. Unless you have not hardened your heart completely to the Holy Spirit's call, and come to him as a child. endless reasoning will just take you in circles. Well, I enjoyed talking to you all, good luck with your beliefs, I hope it turns out well for us all in the end.

Excellent, Mister Emu. Now, read carefully: I have had contact with one fewer god than you have. If Zeus, or Thor, or Brahman, or YHWH, or the Easter Bunny "made contact" with me, I would believe in them. I do not believe in YHWH for the exact same reason that you do not believe in Zeus. I'm not attacking your belief here. I'm just trying to help you (and Victor, who started this thread) understand why I do not share your belief. I hope I have done so.

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Except I do not beleive they exist because the God I have had contact with says they don't. If He did not, I could fully believe in other divine entities, though I would not worship them. As such I believe that relegates any "god" to either a imaginary creation, or a demon.

I don't accept their scriptures as accurate renditions of any entity's contact outside of the demonic because no loyal creation of my Lord would spread such falsities, and I do not accept the existence of any "god" outside my Lord, because my Lord tells me that no such beings exist.

Mister Emu said:

Except I do not beleive they exist because the God I have had contact with says they don't.

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And you believe what YHWH says (or, rather, what you believe YHWH says) is true, because...? He has an honest face? It seems to me that you believe what YHWH says to be true because either

a) He's the only god that you believe has "contacted" you. In this case, I simply believe I have been "contacted" by one fewer god than you. We both dismiss what "Zeus says" for the same reason.....neither of us have been "contacted" by Zeus. Or.....

b) Even if other gods DID "contact" you, you would dismiss them. In this case, when you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods.....

I'm not challenging your belief here, just explaining my own.

Mister Emu said:

I don't accept their scriptures as accurate renditions of any entity's contact outside of the demonic because no loyal creation of my Lord would spread such falsities, and I do not accept the existence of any "god" outside my Lord, because my Lord tells me that no such beings exist.

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Just to get a taste of my perspective: replace "Lord" with "god(s)" and you have just quoted the words of fundamentalists from every religion in human history--and each time spoken, no doubt, with equal conviction to your own.

joeboonda said:

When science supposedy contradicts the Bible, I will stick with the Bible, and we can see what happens in the end. The preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who won't believe, but God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to confound the wise. Unless you have not hardened your heart completely to the Holy Spirit's call, and come to him as a child. endless reasoning will just take you in circles. Well, I enjoyed talking to you all, good luck with your beliefs, I hope it turns out well for us all in the end.

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Even though I doubt joeboonda will come back to this thread, he does bring up something that keeps me from becoming a Christian. Often, Christians say: "come to him as a child" quoting a bible verse that says to put doubt aside entirely. This has always seemed stupid to me. You can convince a child of anything, true or false, so why would you want to emulate that gullibility when looking for ultimate truth?

Secondly, if God made human beings, he gave us a mind with which to explore the world. That's what I am doing. And my mind has determined that God is surprisingly absent in the world's affairs.