What exactly is Leviathan?

Ori · Jun 14, 2005

I know in the Bible it's described as a reptile in the sea. Is it some kind of dinosaur?

Halcyon · Jun 14, 2005

If you look at the scripture from a non-religious point of view, then it becomes quite blatant that Leviation is a crocodile, and Behemoth is a hippopotamus.

sandy whitelinger · Jul 16, 2005

Halcyon, go back and read the description of leviathan, paying particular attention to the desription of it's tail. Next look at a picture of a hippo and explain how a hippo's tail compares.

Linus · Jul 16, 2005

The description of the behemoth is in Job chapter 40. The Leviathan is in chapter 41. Some say the leviathan is a dragon based on verses 18-21, but these statements could be hyperbolic or metaphorical. But I think it is really hard to say what exactly they are. Even within the range of modern, living animals, there is difficulty. Some descriptions and statements seem to fit perfectly those of the hippo and crocodile, but others do not.

sandy whitelinger said:
Halcyon, go back and read the description of leviathan, paying particular attention to the desription of it's tail. Next look at a picture of a hippo and explain how a hippo's tail compares.

I think you mean behemoth. The behemoth is described as being an animal "that bends his tail like a cedar" (NASB).

At any rate, I think it could be one of many different types of animals. I used to think that it was for sure a dinosaur, but recently I have been having doubts. I don't know.

Dinogrrl · Jul 16, 2005

Leviathan could not have been a dinosaur, even if dinosaurs lived at that time. Dinosaurs were not aquatic.

sandy whitelinger · Jul 21, 2005

Linus, you are correct. I meant behemoth. So Halcyon? How could this be a hippo?

Dinogrrl, have you ever heard of a Plesiosaur?

anders · Jul 21, 2005

As exciting as asking if the witch of Hansel and Gretel fame was a woman or the Loch Ness monstrer.

Dinogrrl · Jul 21, 2005

plesiosaurs were a completely different group of reptiles.

*knows as such, for she is a paleontology student /and/ works at a museum*

sandy whitelinger · Jul 22, 2005

Interesting Dinogrrl, I did not know that.

alowyn · Aug 13, 2005

It's actually quite interesting to note, now that i think of it...
in modern hebrew, a whale is "Livyatan". "Behema" is a beast. Colloquially, it's also not something you generally call a girl.
Sorry, just thought i'd share... ^_^

michel · Aug 13, 2005

alowyn said:
It's actually quite interesting to note, now that i think of it...
in modern hebrew, a whale is "Livyatan". "Behema" is a beast. Colloquially, it's also not something you generally call a girl.
Sorry, just thought i'd share... ^_^

it is amazing what one learns on this forum; very much as in the spirit of a word for Grandmother in Spanish which also means sonething you would probably like to avoid calling women in South America.......

may · Aug 13, 2005

The description of "Leviathan" at Job 41:1-34 aptly fits the crocodile, and the "sea" of verse 31 may refer to a river such as the Nile or another body of fresh water. It should be noted, however, that some crocodiles, as the Nile crocodiles (Crocodylus niloticus), are found along the seacoast and at times go out into the sea some distance from land

alowyn · Aug 13, 2005

My zoology's not great, but isn't there a reptile of the same family as crocodiles and alligators that lives in the sea and has fins?

here's what Encyclopedia Mythica (www.pantheon.org) says:

Literally, "coiled". In the Bible, and especially the Old Testament, the Leviathan is some sort of chaos animal in the shape of a crocodile or a serpent. In other bible texts it is taken to mean a whale or dolphin, because the animal is there described as living in the sea. Later the Leviathan became a symbol of evil, an anti-divine power (some sort of devil) which will be destroyed on Judgement Day.

The Leviathan appears in more than one religion. In Canaanite mythology and literature, it is a monster called Lotan, 'the fleeing serpent, the coiling serpent, the powerful with the seven heads'. It was eventually killed by Baal. The Leviathan is also the Ugaritic god of evil.

"This great and wide sea, wherein are things creeping innumerable, both small and great beasts. There go the ships: there is that leviathan, whom thou hast made to play therein."
-- Ps. civ, 25-26

alowyn · Aug 13, 2005

here's an illustration from Mythica of the Behemoth and Leviathan.

http://www.pantheon.org/areas/gallery/mythology/middle_east/judaic/behemoth.html

EnhancedSpirit · Aug 13, 2005

First I'd like to say, nice topic Ori.

I do believe a simple answer is best. Leviathon is defined as a gigantic water creature. Behemeth is defined as a gigantic land creature. And Goliath was the member of a gigantic race of humans. As for exactly what those animals where will remain a mystery because of evolution, we cannot be confident of any timelines, so we cannot accurately pinpoint which creatures would be included in these descriptions. But I believe it would be similar to us labeling animals as mammal or reptile. I also believe that they are describing dinasaur like creatures. But I have no proof of that.

Jayhawker Soule · Aug 13, 2005

EnhancedSpirit said:
And Goliath was the member of a gigantic race of humans.

I am always amazed how we can be so comfortable with our ignorancce yet speak with such confidence. So, for example, ...

The Dead Sea Scrolls, hidden away in Holy Land caves 2,000 years ago and unearthed after World War II, are often rated the 20th century's greatest archaeological find. The chief reason for most people: the rediscovery of 230 texts of biblical books, which have begun to change details in the Scriptures read by millions.

For instance?

The height of Goliath. ''He's barely tall enough to make the all-star game,'' remarks Frank Cross, a Harvard University expert on the official team working on the scrolls.

That is, in 1 Samuel 17:4 most English translations say Goliath stood ''six cubits and a span,'' meaning a towering nine feet plus (about 3 meters). But a damaged Dead Sea scroll can be read as saying ''four cubits and a span,'' a mere six and a half feet (2 meters). That's why the official U.S. Catholic Bible gives Goliath the shorter stature.

- see Dead Sea Scrolls yield questions in Old Testament understanding

When you read something that science and common sense suggest is extraordinarily unlikely, the problem may well be the current state of your knowlede rather than some defect in science. The entire history of science has been one of this lesson being repeatedly taught, yet there always seems to be a large number of people who refuse to learn the lesson.

EnhancedSpirit · Aug 13, 2005

Deut. 32.8 said:
I am always amazed how we can be so comfortable with our ignorancce yet speak with such confidence. So, for example, ...

It amazes me how some people's arrogance can make them look like idiots themselves, regardless of how intellegent they may be.

Deut. really, we all know that you are a walking encyclopedia, but do you have to be so condescending? The bible describes Goliath as giant, you want to argue over specifics of measurement that is man made and has changed over time? And that is the point of my arguement in the first place, there is no way for us to know for sure, the specifics of these things, we should spend more time worrying about today, then trying to guess the specifics of many yesterdays.

Valjean · Aug 13, 2005

alowyn said:
My zoology's not great, but isn't there a reptile of the same family as crocodiles and alligators that lives in the sea and has fins?

Marine reptiles:
Salt water crocks -- look like river crocks.
Sea snakes -- flattened tail, no fins.
Sea iguanas -- spikey, but no fins
Loch ness monster -- largely mythological.

Jayhawker Soule · Aug 13, 2005

EnhancedSpirit said:
And Goliath was the member of a gigantic race of humans.

No, there was no "gigantic race of humans.".

EnhancedSpirit said:
And that is the point of my arguement in the first place, there is no way for us to know for sure, the specifics of these things, we should spend more time worrying about today, then trying to guess the specifics of many yesterdays.

What hypocrisy!

Ori · Aug 13, 2005

Deut. 32.8 said:
No, there was no "gigantic race of humans."

How can you be so certain in light of the hobbit discovery?

I know there hasn't been any proof concerning giants, but I do not believe we have learned about everything that has brought us to how we are today.

What exactly is Leviathan?

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