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Is our universe real?

N

neomatrix248

Member
Storm said:
You said:

So which is it? Is anything and everything we can imagine probable, or not?
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I wasn't referring to anything, I meant if you can imagine a universe with a certain set of physics/properties that would allow for a simulation to be created, then it is probable that they would create it.


Probably. That doesn't mean I think it's more likely than a real world.
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So you think it's likely that we would create a simulated universe where the AI thinks its universe is real, but that it's unlikely we are in one ourselves? Why is that? What distinguishes our existence from the one we would simulate?
 
Penumbra

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It may make sense for a civilization to make a simulation for its own beings to enter and play with. But why make millions or billions of simulators that emulate universes filled with AI? What's the point? Who is paying for the electric bill??

And this universe is kind of lame. Why simulate a lame universe? Why not simulate paradise, or at least something more interesting?

So no, I don't see any reason to view this as a simulation.

-Lyn
 
Storm

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
neomatrix248 said:
So you think it's likely that we would create a simulated universe where the AI thinks its universe is real, but that it's unlikely we are in one ourselves? Why is that? What distinguishes our existence from the one we would simulate?
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I thought you just meant a convincing simulation. I didn't mean I thought we'd create the Matrix.

As for why I don't find it likely, there's no reason to assume it's the case. So it's unfalsifiable, big whoop. So are the other examples I listed, but you don't find them compelling. So, answer your own question: what's the difference?
 
N

neomatrix248

Member
Penumbra said:
It may make sense for a civilization to make a simulation for its own beings to enter and play with. But why make millions or billions of simulators that emulate universes filled with AI? What's the point? Who is paying for the electric bill??

And this universe is kind of lame. Why simulate a lame universe? Why not simulate paradise, or at least something more interesting?

So no, I don't see any reason to view this as a simulation.

-Lyn
Click to expand...
Why do we run simulations? It could be just to test new technology, such as a display at their TED. Or, it could be done to study how life develops, or how organisms affect their environment. The simulation could be as something as simple as a 5 year old running it on his computer for fun, or scientific research. There are any number of possibilities. We could even be a futuristic version of a history book for students to study to learn more about the history of the human race, or whatever race created the the simulation.
 
Boethiah

Boethiah

Penguin
Penumbra said:
It may make sense for a civilization to make a simulation for its own beings to enter and play with. But why make millions or billions of simulators that emulate universes filled with AI? What's the point? Who is paying for the electric bill??

And this universe is kind of lame. Why simulate a lame universe? Why not simulate paradise, or at least something more interesting?

So no, I don't see any reason to view this as a simulation.

-Lyn
Click to expand...

Perhaps the people who are running our simulation, however incredibly intelligent, live in a bleak universe lacking emotion or a totalitarian ruled existence and want to create something that isn't so.

Just a thought.
 
Storm

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
neomatrix, this whole argument boils down to you taking far too strong a stance. It's possible, sure. But that doesn't mean that every rational person will concede that it's more likely than not.
 
N

neomatrix248

Member
Storm said:
I thought you just meant a convincing simulation. I didn't mean I thought we'd create the Matrix.

As for why I don't find it likely, there's no reason to assume it's the case. So it's unfalsifiable, big whoop. So are the other examples I listed, but you don't find them compelling. So, answer your own question: what's the difference?
Click to expand...

The point is, if you believe it's likely, then it could be some way for you to answer a few mysteries of the universe. How did the big bang start the universe from a single point? Simple, it was the start of the simulation. Why is the speed of light the upper bound for velocity? Simple, it's the maximum value a variable type used in the programming, and to make it a higher value would use more memory. The probably aren't true, obviously, but it's just a way to wrap your mind around things you may never understand otherwise.

I'm an atheist myself, but only being able to resort to science when I want to have an answer for things is frustrating. I'm not saying I believe we are living in a simulation, but it is one of the many possibilities, and that gives me some peace of mind.
 
Storm

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
neomatrix248 said:
The point is, if you believe it's likely,
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I'll stop you right there. I don't believe it's likely, and you've presented nothing to make me even think twice about that.

then it could be some way for you to answer a few mysteries of the universe. [snip]

I'm an atheist myself, but only being able to resort to science when I want to have an answer for things is frustrating. I'm not saying I believe we are living in a simulation, but it is one of the many possibilities, and that gives me some peace of mind.
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That sounds like the worst possible reason to believe in anything, religion included.
 
N

neomatrix248

Member
Storm said:
neomatrix, this whole argument boils down to you taking far too strong a stance. It's possible, sure. But that doesn't mean that every rational person will concede that it's more likely than not.
Click to expand...

I don't think i'm taking that strong of a stance. I just think it's too probable to be dismissed as easily as you are dismissing it. To be perfectly honest, I don't believe it is the truth, but I feel it's likely enough that it wouldn't surprise me if it did turn out to be true.
 
Storm

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
neomatrix248 said:
I don't think i'm taking that strong of a stance. I just think it's too probable to be dismissed as easily as you are dismissing it. To be perfectly honest, I don't believe it is the truth, but I feel it's likely enough that it wouldn't surprise me if it did turn out to be true.
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Yeah, you did:
neomatrix248 said:
Most rational people would recognize that B is more likely [emphasis added]
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So I didn't get the phrasing exactly right from memory, I got the gist. You said rational people would recognize it's more likely that we're in a simulation than reality.
 
N

neomatrix248

Member
Storm said:
I'll stop you right there. I don't believe it's likely, and you've presented nothing to make me even think twice about that.


That sounds like the worst possible reason to believe in anything, religion included.
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I didn't mean you, I meant anyone reading this.

What's wrong with having more options to think about when trying to answer a difficult question? Rather then shrug my shoulders when I try to think about what happened before the big bang, I can have something to think about and weigh the possibilities of. It's like looking at the answers to a multiple choice question and not seeing any that seem right to you and then realizing there is another option. That option may not be right either, but it's something else to go on.
 
Flow

Flow

NONE
neomatrix248 said:
I don't think i'm taking that strong of a stance. I just think it's too probable to be dismissed as easily as you are dismissing it. To be perfectly honest, I don't believe it is the truth, but I feel it's likely enough that it wouldn't surprise me if it did turn out to be true.
Click to expand...

I dont find this propable at all, you say you are an atheist, isnt this just a probable as the existence God? You have no evidence for either and logic and reasoning done conclude to this at all. It may be an answer, but the answer is no better then the notion of a God.
 
Penumbra

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
neomatrix248 said:
Why do we run simulations? It could be just to test new technology, such as a display at their TED. Or, it could be done to study how life develops, or how organisms affect their environment. The simulation could be as something as simple as a 5 year old running it on his computer for fun, or scientific research. There are any number of possibilities. We could even be a futuristic version of a history book for students to study to learn more about the history of the human race, or whatever race created the the simulation.
Click to expand...
A 13 billion year long simulation?

I wouldn't want to be the one to fund that study.

Boethiah said:
Perhaps the people who are running our simulation, however incredibly intelligent, live in a bleak universe lacking emotion or a totalitarian ruled existence and want to create something that isn't so.

Just a thought.
Click to expand...
And this is the universe they made? This one is kind of lame. If you have a simulator with capabilities of crafting a simulated universe, why not make a more interesting one?
 
ImmortalFlame

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
neomatrix248 said:
I don't think i'm taking that strong of a stance. I just think it's too probable to be dismissed as easily as you are dismissing it. To be perfectly honest, I don't believe it is the truth, but I feel it's likely enough that it wouldn't surprise me if it did turn out to be true.
Click to expand...

How could you possibly consider that in any way likely? Even if it were true, there would literally be no reason to accept it as true whatsoever, so on what basis do you determine how likely it is to be true?
 
Storm

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Flow said:
I dont find this propable at all, you say you are an atheist, isnt this just a probable as the existence God? You have no evidence for either and logic and reasoning done conclude to this at all. It may be an answer, but the answer is no better then the notion of a God.
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I can't see a significant difference, myself.
 
N

neomatrix248

Member
Storm said:
So I didn't get the phrasing exactly right from memory, I got the gist. You said rational people would recognize it's more likely that we're in a simulation than reality.
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Correct, and I stand by what I said. Rational is an opinion, and in my opinion, most rational people would believe option B to be the more likely one. I guess that just means we are in disagreement. It happens.
 
Flow

Flow

NONE
neomatrix248 said:
I didn't mean you, I meant anyone reading this.

What's wrong with having more options to think about when trying to answer a difficult question? Rather then shrug my shoulders when I try to think about what happened before the big bang, I can have something to think about and weigh the possibilities of. It's like looking at the answers to a multiple choice question and not seeing any that seem right to you and then realizing there is another option. That option may not be right either, but it's something else to go on.
Click to expand...

If you are really looking for answers, then dont look outward, that will take to long. To find all of the answers you desire, look inside. I have found that most of the answers I seek lie within the deepest core of my being. Those who know not the answers, simply havent looked inside. Those who do know the answers, have looked inside. Science will one day come to the same conclusion that the people who looked inward found. Its just that looking inward is a shorter journey to the truth then the journey outward.

That is just how I see it.
 
ImmortalFlame

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
neomatrix248 said:
I didn't mean you, I meant anyone reading this.

What's wrong with having more options to think about when trying to answer a difficult question? Rather then shrug my shoulders when I try to think about what happened before the big bang, I can have something to think about and weigh the possibilities of. It's like looking at the answers to a multiple choice question and not seeing any that seem right to you and then realizing there is another option. That option may not be right either, but it's something else to go on.
Click to expand...

The problem is that not all answers are created equal and an answer which has no factual basis is worse than having no answer at all. I could postulate that the universe was burped into existence by a giant baboon. Is it a possibility? Yes. Has my suggestion of this answer in any way enhanced our understanding of the universe? No.

Not having an answer to something is not an excuse to thrust any old nonsense in it's place. Acknowledging the "possibility" of such things without any factual basis is utterly meaningless and a complete waste of time for everyone involved.
 
Flow

Flow

NONE
Penumbra said:
A 13 billion year long simulation?

I wouldn't want to be the one to fund that study.
Click to expand...


Perhaps the time is different outside of the simulation, if there is time outside of this universe. Time could simply be an attribute of this simulation only and not of others. If this really is a simulation, then the place that this came from could be drastically different, meaning that there could be no time, space, or anything that is an attribute of this universe. Its kind of odd to think about.
 
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