Is our universe real?

I basically paraphrasing this from famous scientist Nick Bostrom who made this argument, but I think it's something very interesting to think about. Consider these three propositions, all of which shouldn't be too hard to agree with.

1. It is possible for an advanced civilization to run a simulation so detailed that simulated organisms don't know they are in a simulation (I could even see our technology reaching this state within the next 100-200 years).
2. If such a civilization has the capability to do this, they would have a reason to go through with it (research, fun, high school science project)
3. If such a simulation were run, it would not likely be the only one. There would probably be hundreds/thousands/millions/billions of such simulations run over the course of that civilization's life.

Now what sounds more likely.
A. Our universe is the one "real" universe, from which such simulations could be run.
B. We are one of the billions of simulations run from an alternate universe.

Most rational people would recognize that B is more likely (though I recognize that being more likely does not make it necessarily true).

I find this intriguing, because if we were living in a simulation it would have no effect on our lives whatsoever. The only thing that would change is that we would have an explanation for things such as the origin of the universe (the big bang is the start of the simulation perhaps?) and other things that science simply can't figure out (dark matter/dark energy).

What do you guys think about this?

Isn't this basically the same concept of God, but with more detail?

I guess you could call the computer running the simulation a "god", but it only acts as the creator and doesn't have anything to do with our day to day lives. If it did affect the simulation, then it wouldn't be a very accurate simulation.

I don't care if this reality is actually real or not . . . you guys are never gonna catch me wearing a black leather duster and mirrored sunglasses. Although, the ability to fly would be cool if the person running my particular simiulation is listening.

No, the universe is NOT real. But, that is our perception of the universe that makes it unreal. If we see the universe as just matter, we have fallen into the illusion. If we see the universe for what it is, then we see the reality hidden behind the false.

And, I dont see that the universe is a simulation, but more of a super lucid cosmic dream. Or, at least, that it how I see it.

Yes, and no........depending on where you are looking from.

Engyo said:

Yes, and no........depending on where you are looking from.

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Ah, there we go. This is what I tried to say, but failed. Thanks Engyo!

Flow said:

No, the universe is NOT real. But, that is our perception of the universe that makes it unreal. If we see the universe as just matter, we have fallen into the illusion. If we see the universe for what it is, then we see the reality hidden behind the false.

And, I dont see that the universe is a simulation, but more of a super lucid cosmic dream. Or, at least, that it how I see it.

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That's pretty vague, lol.

neomatrix248 said:

That's pretty vague, lol.

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Yeah, I know, sorry. Its really hard to explain. But in my view, this whole universe is a super lucid dream taking place within one Consicousness which we are all drops of. If you take the universe to be matter, your caught within the illusion. If you take the universe to be Consicousness, you see it as it is.

But this is just in my views, many others disagree with this view of "Subject only".

Flow said:

Yeah, I know, sorry. Its really hard to explain. But in my view, this whole universe is a super lucid dream taking place within one Consicousness which we are all drops of. If you take the universe to be matter, your caught within the illusion. If you take the universe to be Consicousness, you see it as it is.

But this is just in my views, many others disagree with this view of "Subject only".

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I see where you are coming from. In a way, it's very similar to the idea that everything is a simulation. The thing that would make me disagree with you, is that if we were part of a dream, I don't think we would be self aware. Our actions would be determined all from a central brain, i.e. the one dreaming. If this was a simulation, we would be able to make our own decisions because we would run using an AI engine, which would give us the illusion of having our own consciousness. That's just my opinion though.

neomatrix248 said:

Now what sounds more likely.
A. Our universe is the one "real" universe, from which such simulations could be run.
B. We are one of the billions of simulations run from an alternate universe.

Most rational people would recognize that B is more likely

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How do you come to that conclusion?

Storm said:

How do you come to that conclusion?

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Think of it this way. In these simulations, it is possible for the simulated people to run simulations as well, as well as THOSE simulated people, entering an endless state of recursion. We could either be in any one of these infinite layers of recursion, or we could be the first branch on the tree.

To compare the odds of being the "original" universe to a simulated one, here's an example.

What is more likely, being the first human ever born, or being a descendant of a descendant of a descendant?

neomatrix248 said:

Think of it this way. In these simulations, it is possible for the simulated people to run simulations as well, as well as THOSE simulated people, entering an endless state of recursion. We could either be in any one of these infinite layers of recursion, or we could be the first branch on the tree.

To compare the odds of being the "original" universe to a simulated one, here's an example.

What is more likely, being the first human ever born, or being a descendant of a descendant of a descendant?

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You're assuming that simulations are as likely as the original, which strikes me rather silly.

Storm said:

You're assuming that simulations are as likely as the original, which strikes me rather silly.

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If you are able to admit that it is POSSIBLE for a civilization to run a simulation with this level of complexity, then it is also possible that at least one of the simulations they run would be capable to run their own simulation. This would create an infinite recursion loop, each loop increasing the odds that any given universe selected at random is actually a simulation. It all comes down to chance. The argument lies in how likely you consider the fact that it is possible for such a simulation to exist.

neomatrix248 said:

If you are able to admit that it is POSSIBLE for a civilization to run a simulation with this level of complexity, then it is also possible that at least one of the simulations they run would be capable to run their own simulation. This would create an infinite recursion loop, each loop increasing the odds that any given universe selected at random is actually a simulation. It all comes down to chance. The argument lies in how likely you consider the fact that it is possible for such a simulation to exist.

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Possible =/= probable.

This is the kind of thinking that finds Pascal's Wager compelling.

Storm said:

Possible =/= probable.

This is the kind of thinking that finds Pascal's Wager compelling.

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in my opinion, it's very probable. If you want an interesting read, try this article:
"Artificial life forms evolve basic intelligence - life - 04 August 2010 - New Scientist"(I can't post the URL)
If we are able to achieve such results in the field of AI, a field which is 50 years old at best, I can only conclude that a civilization who could potentially be millions of years ahead of us in technology could easily simulate an entire universe.

Also, don't forget that if you are trying to figure out how probable this is, you also have to consider all possible universes with all possible laws of physics, operating on different logic. If your imagination can conceive of a way for it to be possible, then it is probable.

neomatrix248 said:

I see where you are coming from. In a way, it's very similar to the idea that everything is a simulation. The thing that would make me disagree with you, is that if we were part of a dream, I don't think we would be self aware. Our actions would be determined all from a central brain, i.e. the one dreaming. If this was a simulation, we would be able to make our own decisions because we would run using an AI engine, which would give us the illusion of having our own consciousness. That's just my opinion though.

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No, there is no central brain and there is no ONE dreaming. This notion stems from the feeling of Individuality. You are only in the dream because you identify with the dream, you are really not in the dream at all. We are not dreams, we are the DREAMERS. We are self-aware simply because we are. Self-Awareness is being aware of ones existence. And one's existence is the only reality. Everything is constantly moving around us, things are comming and going, thing are being created and destroied, everything is in a constant state of change. Therefore, to find peace, one needs to find that which does not change, and that is ones existence, or Consciousness. The conclusion in this, is that everything but Consciousness is changing, moving, and therefore unreal. It is unreal because that which is ultimatly real is unchanging, and unmoving, simply beacuase it is absolute.

neomatrix248 said:

in my opinion, it's very probable. If you want an interesting read, try this article:
"Artificial life forms evolve basic intelligence - life - 04 August 2010 - New Scientist"(I can't post the URL)
If we are able to achieve such results in the field of AI, a field which is 50 years old at best, I can only conclude that a civilization who could potentially be millions of years ahead of us in technology could easily simulate an entire universe.

Also, don't forget that if you are trying to figure out how probable this is, you also have to consider all possible universes with all possible laws of physics, operating on different logic. If your imagination can conceive of a way for it to be possible, then it is probable.

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So, in your book, Russel's Teapot, the IPU, and any other wacky, unfalsifiable notion humankind can conceive of is probable?

Sorry, I guess I just have higher standards.

Storm said:

So, in your book, Russel's Teapot, the IPU, and any other wacky, unfalsifiable notion humankind can conceive of is probable?

Sorry, I guess I just have higher standards.

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While those things are possible, I don't think they are probable. There is no logical reason for them to exist. I can think of several reason why such a simulation would exist, though. Do you think that if our technology ever advances to the point that we could design a simulation that we would do it?

neomatrix248 said:

While those things are possible, I don't think they are probable.

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You said:

neomatrix248 said:

If your imagination can conceive of a way for it to be possible, then it is probable.

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So which is it? Is anything and everything we can imagine probable, or not?

There is no logical reason for them to exist.

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Nor is there any logical reason to believe you're a brain in a vat.

I can think of several reason why such a simulation would exist, though.

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There's a difference between acknowledging the possibility of existence, and assuming simulation is more probable than... well... reality.

Do you think that if our technology ever advances to the point that we could design a simulation that we would do it?

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Probably. That doesn't mean I think it's more likely than a real world.