taxes

Aqualung · Aug 11, 2005

Since I only mention part of my beleifs towards taxes in the homosexuality thread, I thought I would express my beleifs on the other facets, and let people debate about it.

I don't like the government forcing me to care about certain things. I don't like having to pay taxes if they go toward medicine, especially if they are medical conditions brought on by themselves, or the medical conditions of people who don't pay their taxes in the first place (illegal aliens, for one). This is the government forcing me to care about things that I may or may not care about. Whether I care or not is not the government's business. It is my own business, so I should be able to spend my money on what I care about.
Their are certain taxes that I do think are important, though. Those are the ones that have to do with the way this country runs. I like paying taxes for my roads, especially if they are in the form of a road too, because at least that only taxes the people who use the roads. I like paying taxes for sewage, because it would suck if we didn't have sewers and stuff. The same goes for firefighters, police, military, and the like. Schools I like paying taxes on, because I know that if nobody were educated this country would come to a halt.

I don't know if I missed anything (but I probably did) but what are everyone else's views on taxes?

Feathers in Hair · Aug 11, 2005

Perhaps may I reinterate- no national health care system?

And I really don't like this inference that gay people are more prone to diseases due to their 'lifestyle' than anyone else. (The gay people I know are far less promiscuous than the straight people.) I know that's something to be saved for perhaps another thread, but if you continue to mention it, there will be a reckoning in another.

Faminedynasty · Aug 11, 2005

Firstly, those with the highest percentage of the money should pay the highest percentage of the taxes. Corporations have escaped paying taxes with government loopholes and foreign accounts, leaving the burden on the common people, and this needs to come to an end. Taxes on corporations, and the rich in general need to be increased greatly. It isn't theft, the labor of the common people is where the fortune of the elite rich comes from. And in return for their paying a much greater percentage of the price of our schools, roads, infrastructure and medical coverage, we will allow them to remain obscenely rich at our expense, and won't burn their estates to the ground. In short, those who grow fat from the sweat and blood of the people must give back, it isn't optional.
And in regards to medical, I understand your stance that the government shouldn't dictate what you care about. But it does strike me as strange beyond belief that you would care about roads and sewage more than human beings. Maybe it's because you believe that taxes that go to medicine only benefit illegal aliens, **** with AIDS and other such undesireables. But even if I can't appeal to you to be more compassionate and less prejudiced than that, I can remind you that it is our taxes that pay the medical for the legless vets returning from Iraq. If anything we should pay more medical taxes, so that our children, the elderly and our workers are protected. As it stands, there are millions of people without medical coverage, who, if they must stay in the hospital can be absolutely financially destroyed. You say you support the taxes that make the country work. Well I assure you that it is not in the interest of this country for countless workers and veterans of war to be living in financial ruin and desperation. And that is clearly the way it is. Nor is it in the interest of things running well for millions of children to be living in poverty, sent to third-world quality schools, and that is clearly the way it is. We are such a rich nation that there is no doubt that we could irradicate crime, poverty, homelesness and disease. The only obstacle to it is greed.

Aqualung · Aug 11, 2005

FeathersinHair said:
Perhaps may I reinterate- no national health care system?

And I really don't like this inference that gay people are more prone to diseases due to their 'lifestyle' than anyone else. (The gay people I know are far less promiscuous than the straight people.) I know that's something to be saved for perhaps another thread, but if you continue to mention it, there will be a reckoning in another.

I know that some gay people have lower risk than some straight men. I also don't like paying for the health care of people who sleep around with prostitutes all the time. I don't care if they want to do that, just as I don't care if someone in homosexual, but I don't want to pay for it.

A huge part of my paycheck goes towards other people's medical care. Have you ever heard of Social Security or Medicare? Those are all paid by my taxes. Just beause, as you say, there is "no national health care system" does not mean I'm not paying for people's health.

Aqualung · Aug 11, 2005

Faminedynasty said:
Firstly, those with the highest percentage of the money should pay the highest percentage of the taxes.

I don't think they should pay a higher percentage. I think everyone should pay a flat percentage of their income. That seems the fairest.

Corporations have escaped paying taxes with government loopholes and foreign accounts, leaving the burden on the common people, and this needs to come to an end.

Yes. Definitely.

And in regards to medical, I understand your stance that the government shouldn't dictate what you care about. But it does strike me as strange beyond belief that you would care about roads and sewage more than human beings.

I don't value them more. But look at it this way. If the government said "okay, you can choose to pay a sewage tax, you don't have to." Everybody would stop paying. And then the sewage would pile up in the streets. And then everybody would come to their senses and realise that they need it. Sewage, if it isn't payed for, hurts EVERYBODY. That's the difference. It's paying for things you use vs. being forced to pay for things you don't.

Maybe it's because you believe that taxes that go to medicine only benefit illegal aliens, **** with AIDS and other such undesireables.

Beleive me. I don't think that. My mother is crippled with MS, and a large part of our income comes from Social Security, and she relies on Medicare for the expensive medical she has (such as having to get a feeding tube implanted, and then having to pay for the really expensive medical food to put in the tube, because she lost about 20 lbs in a few months of trying to blenderise food to meet her nutrition needs. I know who gets Social security and the like). The problem is that I don't think it's the government's job to tell people that they have to care about my mom, or that I have to care about anyone. I do care, because I've seen what disease can do to a family, but I don't want the government making me care.

But even if I can't appeal to you to be more compassionate and less prejudiced than that, I can remind you that it is our taxes that pay the medical for the legless vets returning from Iraq. If anything we should pay more medical taxes, so that our children, the elderly and our workers are protected. As it stands, there are millions of people without medical coverage, who, if they must stay in the hospital can be absolutely financially destroyed.

What if there were no more free medicine, there were no more insurance, or any of that. What would the doctors do? They would turn medicine into a business. They would lower prices so they would get people. They would innovate so their care would be better than the doctor's down the street. Like everything, doctoring would be best in a free market. It's where things survive and innovate the best, based on the needs of the people.

You say you support the taxes that make the country work. Well I assure you that it is not in the interest of this country for countless workers and veterans of war to be living in financial ruin and desperation. And that is clearly the way it is. Nor is it in the interest of things running well for millions of children to be living in poverty, sent to third-world quality schools, and that is clearly the way it is. We are such a rich nation that there is no doubt that we could irradicate crime, poverty, homelesness and disease. The only obstacle to it is greed.

That's the way it is because of how the taxes are. What do you think would happen if we had universal health care? The same things that are happening to Canada. There are countless border Canadians who come to the US to pay higher prices, yes, but also to receive better medical care. As the Soviet Union showed, when there is no incentive to do well ( having to do well to maintain your client base) people won't do well. If doctors are given money regardless of how they are doing, they won't do well. If we payed more taxes toward medicine, this is what would happen,

Shadow Wolf · Aug 11, 2005

I don't like the government forcing me to care about certain things. I don't like having to pay taxes if they go toward medicine, especially if they are medical conditions brought on by themselves, or the medical conditions of people who don't pay their taxes in the first place (illegal aliens, for one). This is the government forcing me to care about things that I may or may not care about. Whether I care or not is not the government's business. It is my own business, so I should be able to spend my money on what I care about.

I agree. I shouldn't have to give my money to some lazy bum who gets his girlfriend pregnant every nine months just to live like a leech off of others. I agree with paying taxes for roads, and other practical things, but not someone who will not work.

Firstly, those with the highest percentage of the money should pay the highest percentage of the taxes.

Not really. If that was the case, then someone making 25/hour might be making roughly the same as someone making 10/hour. Taxes should be taken out equally. All forms of taxes, such as property, gift, etc., (excluding sales tax) should be rised slightly (about 5 dollars), instead sky rocketing one tax.

rainbowchristianqld · Aug 12, 2005

Okay, let's look at a few points.

Being realistic, if the Government allowed us to only pay taxes for what we care about, then there would be Millions of people paying NO (or very little) tax at all... it would just create another 1000 loop holes in the tax system for people to abuse.

As for paying medical bills for "**** with AIDS", some people forget that there's just as many "Hetro's with Aids" in the world, do you not want to pay for your own "Club" as well?

As for Income Tax, I believe that there should just be the same percentage % taken off for everyone.

Feathers in Hair · Aug 12, 2005

Aqualung said:
I know that some gay people have lower risk than some straight men. I also don't like paying for the health care of people who sleep around with prostitutes all the time. I don't care if they want to do that, just as I don't care if someone in homosexual, but I don't want to pay for it.

You pay for someone who's heterosexual, just as equally. Again, if you'd like to take this up in another thread, I'm more than willing.

Aqualung said:
A huge part of my paycheck goes towards other people's medical care. Have you ever heard of Social Security or Medicare? Those are all paid by my taxes.

You pay all of them? Dear heavens, that's gotta be a heavy burden! (Just kidding.)
I pay the same as you do. What if I didn't want to support all the heterosexuals, sleazing around with their risky lifestyle? Quite frankly, statistically (there being more straights than gays) that's the bigger outrage.

Aqualung said:
Just beause, as you say, there is "no national health care system" does not mean I'm not paying for people's health.

You do make a good point about paying, and I stand corrected. I would again bring up that it's more likely that the burden on that system is not exclusively gays.

rainbowchristianqld · Aug 12, 2005

FeathersinHair said:
You pay all of them? Dear heavens, that's gotta be a heavy burden! (Just kidding.)
I pay the same as you do. What if I didn't want to support all the heterosexuals, sleazing around with their risky lifestyle? Quite frankly, statistically (there being more straights than gays) that's the bigger outrage.

I strongly agree. Also, a lot of heterosexual couples don't seem to think twice when "Introducing another life in the world" at the cost of Homosexual tax payers (among others). Especially when there's homeless/adoptable kids out there that we're already helping (paying taxes for) to Live, and also denied (in a lot of cases) the chance to care for them our selves (as homosexuals) under current adoption laws.

Quoth The Raven · Aug 12, 2005

Aqualung said:
What do you think would happen if we had universal health care? The same things that are happening to Canada. There are countless border Canadians who come to the US to pay higher prices, yes, but also to receive better medical care. As the Soviet Union showed, when there is no incentive to do well ( having to do well to maintain your client base) people won't do well. If doctors are given money regardless of how they are doing, they won't do well. If we payed more taxes toward medicine, this is what would happen,

I don't know, I don't think our health service is filled with incentiveless doctors that don't do well because we have a national health service. (Except for the ones we import from the US that get nicknamed Dr Death because of their gross negligence.)
Actually, we've got a bit of a shortage of doctors, and importing them from overseas doesn't seem to help, because the ones that aren't trained here - except for the ones from the British Isles - all seem to be duds on a monumental scale. That has more to do with the fact that they're bad doctors than it does with the fact we have an NHS. The fact we have an NHS also doesn't gaurantee that they will remain licensed to practice medicine if they're no good.
Having private insurance doesn't get you any better or faster treatment...you still wont get your knee reconstructed on the spot just because you're paying out for insurance and then paying out more in gap cover on top of that than a Medicare patient.You get put in exactly the same queue as they do, you just cough up more for the priveledge.
Some doctors charge more than the scheduled fee for their services...my mother in laws doctor, for instance. The last one she had was totally incompetent (as in, 'doctor, I have a lump in my leg','really? It's gastro, have these tablets.), and even this one - though an infinite improvement - is no better a doctor for the cost of $45, than the lovely Irish man I go see for nothing.
Also, I think you'll find that when medicine becomes a free market environment, people who don't have any money die because they can't afford the cost of a fluvax, and people that can afford to buy a kidney when they need one, get one. Heart bypass surgery doesn't become cheap because doctors are trying to attract customers. The thing with doctors is that they don't need to drum up custom...someone will eventually need their services.

alowyn · Aug 12, 2005

Personally, as a South African, i share my parent's accountant's views that taxes (in this country, at least) are not going anywhere. What do our taxes pay for? the roads? South African roads are not in the best of conditions. the police? They're so corrupt that the middle class opt for security services. Public transportation? Please. Our mini-bus taxis are not only falling apart and hazardous, the drivers are either unaware of the traffic laws or have decided that they don't apply to government workers. And with so many impoverished South Africans... our president is very concerned with other African countries (especially Niger and the Ivory Coast) and our (now ex, thankfully) vice president bought a couple of military jets at millions of Rands. While i understand why taxes are important in theory, they're certainly not working in practise here.

DreamQuickBook · Aug 12, 2005

FeathersinHair said:
And I really don't like this inference that gay people are more prone to diseases due to their 'lifestyle' than anyone else. (The gay people I know are far less promiscuous than the straight people.) I know that's something to be saved for perhaps another thread, but if you continue to mention it, there will be a reckoning in another.

This is entirely untrue and without basis. It is a sociological fact that the homosexual community is dangerously promiscuous and there are a great deal of homosexual activists trying to fight this trend as a way to fight HIV and STDs.

Pah · Aug 12, 2005

Jocose said:
This is entirely untrue and without basis. It is a sociological fact that the homosexual community is dangerously promiscuous and there are a great deal of homosexual activists trying to fight this trend as a way to fight HIV and STDs.

Then you wouldn't mind citing the study that confirms your bold assertions - would you!

DreamQuickBook · Aug 12, 2005

Pah said:
Then you wouldn't mind citing the study that confirms your bold assertions - would you!

Nope. Not in the mood for educating you. You could do the research yourself though. It wouldn't' hurt. *shrugs*

Yerda · Aug 12, 2005

Aqualung said:
Like everything, doctoring would be best in a free market. It's where things survive and innovate the best, based on the needs of the people.

I think this is the most dangerous and fatal idea to spring from free-market fundamentalism.

If the free market was perfect, America and the EU would not be steeped in draconian protectionism. If this message was true the privatised water systems in the third world would be the most efficient to be found.

Pah · Aug 12, 2005

Jocose said:
Nope. Not in the mood for educating you. You could do the research yourself though. It wouldn't' hurt. *shrugs*

I did a search and couldn't find anything that confirms your statement. It's really hard to prove a negative so perhaps you better get crackin' if you want to have credibility.

pdoel · Aug 12, 2005

Jocose said:
Nope. Not in the mood for educating you. You could do the research yourself though. It wouldn't' hurt. *shrugs*

Here's an idea. Turn on MTV sometime. Watch shows such as "Real World", "Road Rules", or even better, "Spring Break".

Heterosexuals seem QUITE promiscious to me. More so than any homosexual I know.

Melody · Aug 12, 2005

pdoel said:
Here's an idea. Turn on MTV sometime. Watch shows such as "Real World", "Road Rules", or even better, "Spring Break".

Heterosexuals seem QUITE promiscious to me. More so than any homosexual I know.

And we all know just how reliable the media is at telling the truth, hmmm? If it's not sensationalized, it'll never hit prime time.

Now to go back and read what this thread is about....

pdoel · Aug 12, 2005

As for the topic on hand.

While it does suck paying taxes on things I will never get to use, I also realize the importance in these types of programs.

Yes, it sucks that I, as a homosexual male, will probably never have children that will utilize the school systems. So that's money I spend to school taxes, that I will never get back.

Yes, it sucks that I pay taxes to the government, to go for welfare, unemployment, research for diseases, disasters, school funding, funding to hospitals, etc. that currently, I have no need for. I also pay a lot for health care, which, I've probably used 3 times. So, for the 14 some years I've been working, I've been paying a ton of money for health benefits, that so far, I haven't used.

Same with car insurance.

But, you see, here's the thing. The way life goes, I may be paying for these things that I don't use now, but someday, I will be using them. Same with the things the government / taxes. The government takes our money for taxes, and use it as they see fit. Many of these spendings are things we feel we will never use. But you never know. Any one of us could end up unemployed, need unemployment, and who knows, maybe even welfare, someday.

Yeah, taxes suck. But this money does provide a lot of programs and benefits to us, that we will probably get use out of at some point in our lives. Maybe they money that goes to AIDs research won't help any of us, but maybe the money that goes to cancer will. Personally, I don't like the idea of picking and choosing what my money goes to. What if the government allowed it, but then refused help to us, as citizens, if something arises in our life where we would need those benefits, but we felt we wouldn't need it, and didn't pay?

jamaesi · Aug 12, 2005

Nope. Not in the mood for educating you. You could do the research yourself though. It wouldn't' hurt. *shrugs*

... What's the point of posting in the debate forum if you don't want to debate properly?

I am sick of people trying to justify their homophobia with this "ALL THOSE GAY PEOPLE WITH AIDS, WAH, WHY SHOULD I PAY FOR THEM?" AIDs is not a gay disease. Also, overweight people do not have a monopoly on heart disease- and a not all people are overweight because all they do is sit on a couch and eat chips. People who have never smoked in their lives have gotten lung cancer.

If you're going to be stingy about who you help- which goes against the Bible, Jesus said to help the lowest of the low and the unsavoury people- then don't come crying when no one wants to help you.

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