what is the origin of sin/evil?

tomasortega said:

what is the origin of sin/evil? sin?

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YOU are the origin...when you do things without awareness, doing things because of habits and mechanically....thus the origin of sin. Its is the lack of consciousness and awareness that puts us into to doing that is incorrect..

Evil is what we find humans as detrimental to our self-interests or nature. So Evil is bad because it takes us away from the path of goodness etc. But Goodness etc is also relative. For us making having a family is good and having babies is good. But for a competing species , it is evil to see humans expanding in numbers. A species like microbial pathogen perceive us as evil and hence to be fed upon and hence decrease the load on the selfish , arrogant and self -righteous humans.
Evil and goodness is created by the minds of the ignorant who havent really eveolved out of
basic animal instincts of emotions and worldly desires.

For me , there are only opposites , so when light is created then darkness is inherent in it and comes into existence. both in infinite magnitude are created and all have certain quantities of it.

Prasoon Dixit, Vedic Dharmi.
Reestablishing Vedic Dharma

That sin and evil continues to exist contrary to the expectations of the incarnation can only mean that God's will, that would consign evil to the past has not yet been either understood or revealed! In the face of this self evident failure, one might assume that true religion has yet to begin. Maybe that is what the last judgement is about?

tomasortega said:

so guys, lets cut to the chase, is there sin in heaven, yes or no? if there is no sin in heaven, then lucifer couldnt possibly sin. if there is sin in heaven, then god created sin.
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I'm still struggling with how it could be possible for anything to exist that was not created by God. Don't Christians believe there was nothing until God made everything?

tomasortega said:

interesting. in other words you are saying that the desire for sin is not sin, and that as long as you dont give in to the desire to sin, you do not sin....

logically then, the desire to commit adultery with a beautiful woman is not a sin, it only becomes(or as james says "gives birth to") sin when you give in to the desire and commit actual physical adultery with the woman....

problem is, jesus disagrees with you and james on this one... this is what jesus says according to matthew 5. 27, 28

27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to desire her has already committed adultery with her in his heart

now, from a religious perspective, the desire to sin in humans makes sense, because humans are born in sin, however this would not make sense for lucifer, created in the absence of sin.....so my initial question stands.

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No, James is not saying desire not acted upon is not sin. Rather, he is showing how sin originates, through wrong desires, that when cultivated become fertile, and give birth to sin. God's commandment against coveting shows that allowing wrong desires to grow in our hearts causes us to sin, even if we simply allow selfish desires to take root but do not act on them. That was also the point Jesus made. Modern Bible translations render his words more accurately than the KJ version: "But I say to you that everyone that keeps on looking at a woman so as to have a passion for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." (NWT).
Perfect creatures can allow wrong desires to grow in their heart even as imperfect creatures can. Regarding Eve, the Bible says "Consequently the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was something to be longed for to the eyes, yes, the tree was desirable to look upon.” She allowed her eyes to dwell upon something forbidden to her. What was the result? “So she began taking of its fruit and eating it.”—Genesis 2:17; 3:4-6.
Just so, the one who made himself Satan and Devil deliberately allowed the sin of arrogant pride take root in his heart and grow. This desire to be worshipped led him to sinful actions. Thus 1 Timothy 3:6 warns against appointing a newly converted man to an office of overseer saying "not a newly converted man, for fear that he might get puffed up [with pride] and fall into the judgment passed upon the Devil."

Beaudreaux said:

Exactly. God had no idea people would turn bad so how can it be his fault for creating them the way he did?

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Of course God knew that men, as free moral agents, could choose to turn to what is bad. But he also know he could deal with any situation that may arise through men's misuse of God's kind giftof free will to man. God does not plan, he purposes. Nothing men nor demons can do will thwart God's fulfilling his purpose stated in Eden, that the Earth will be filled and subdued by righteous and happy people who will live forever.

tomasortega said:

so guys, lets cut to the chase, is there sin in heaven, yes or no? if there is no sin in heaven, then lucifer couldnt possibly sin. if there is sin in heaven, then god created sin.
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The Bible speaks about angels that sinned (2 Peter 2:4), and angels have had access to heaven. So for a time there were sinful angels in heaven. Satan also had access to heaven (Job 1:6,7) The Bible reveals the time would come when Satan and his wicked angels would be removed from heaven. (Revelation 12:7-12)
Your statement that "if there is sin in heaven, then god created sin" is not correct.
The father of a large family may be a good and upright man, but have sons who are corrupt and bring wrongdoing into the household. The father takes steps to correct the situation and in due course expells the wayward and unrepentant sons from his family. It is not the father who created bad, but the bad exercise of free will from the sons. Satan and those who follow him, both angels and men, are responsible for what they do, not God. (Deuteronomy 32:4,5)

rusra02 said:

Of course God knew that men, as free moral agents, could choose to turn to what is bad. But he also know he could deal with any situation that may arise through men's misuse of God's kind giftof free will to man. God does not plan, he purposes. Nothing men nor demons can do will thwart God's fulfilling his purpose stated in Eden, that the Earth will be filled and subdued by righteous and happy people who will live forever.

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Wait....I'm confused now. If God DID know that his creation would sin, then He IS responsibile for creating wickedness, isn't he?

rusra02 said:

The father of a large family may be a good and upright man, but have sons who are corrupt and bring wrongdoing into the household. The father takes steps to correct the situation and in due course expells the wayward and unrepentant sons from his family. It is not the father who created bad, but the bad exercise of free will from the sons. Satan and those who follow him, both angels and men, are responsible for what they do, not God. (Deuteronomy 32:4,5)

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This analogy is completely off base. Here are several reasons why:

• The father did not know his children would be sinners. God supposedly knows everything and would know before the children were born that they would be sinners.
• The father did not design every aspect of the chidren, he merely combined his genes with the mother's. God supposedly designs every human being to be exactly the way they are.
• The father did not design the universe out of nothing. Before God, there was supposedly nothing and God made everything that is. How can ANYthing exist that He did not make?

Beaudreaux said:

This analogy is completely off base. Here are several reasons why:

• The father did not know his children would be sinners. God supposedly knows everything and would know before the children were born that they would be sinners.
• The father did not design every aspect of the chidren, he merely combined his genes with the mother's. God supposedly designs every human being to be exactly the way they are.
• The father did not design the universe out of nothing. Before God, there was supposedly nothing and God made everything that is. How can ANYthing exist that He did not make?

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The father did know his children could be sinners. God does not predestine humans to do what is bad. They make that decision.

You apparently do not grasp the gift of free will. God created the first couple as perfect humans, but not robots. They had the same gift God has, the ability to make moral choices. They chose to do what is wicked. Many imperfect people have chosen to do what is good.

God does not make wickedness. He does not make a man a murderer, or a thief or rapist. People make themselves into good people or bad. God allows them that choice. God told the Israelites: "I do take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you today, that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the malediction; and you must choose life in order that you may keep alive, you and your offspring, by loving Jehovah your God, by listening to his voice and by sticking to him; for he is your life and the length of your days." (Deuteronomy 30:19,20)

Beaudreaux said:

Wait....I'm confused now. If God DID know that his creation would sin, then He IS responsibile for creating wickedness, isn't he?

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Who said God knew the first humans would sin? He knew they could sin. A car maker knows a car he makes could kill a person, even if he makes a very safe car. The outcome for any person is not written in advance. We make choices that determine what our future will be. God displayed great confidence in Adam and Eve by the freedom he permitted them. They betrayed his trust. There is nothing in the Bible to indicate that God peers into the future of every individual.

rusra02 said:

Who said God knew the first humans would sin? He knew they could sin. A car maker knows a car he makes could kill a person, even if he makes a very safe car. The outcome for any person is not written in advance. We make choices that determine what our future will be. God displayed great confidence in Adam and Eve by the freedom he permitted them. They betrayed his trust. There is nothing in the Bible to indicate that God peers into the future of every individual.

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So you, like myself, do not believe god to be all knowing?
Cool that.

ok friends sorry i have been away for a while.

let me clarify my reasoning and this time with help from the bible...

1 john 3:8 "...the devil has been sinning from the beginning."

according to the bible then, lucifer was created in sin, since he has been sinning from the beginning of his existence.

ezechiel 28:15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you..
Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.

unlike an action you can control (such as rape,killing etc), pride is a feeling/emotion that comes naturally from within as part of a being's character/personality/nature. to say lucifer was/became proud/felt pride, is to say lucifer had a sinful nature. we (humans) may feel pride/jealousy/hate etc. because we are born in sin and thus are born with a sinful nature, and we blame it on adam and eve. but according to christian doctrine lucifer was not created in sin/with a sinful nature, because that would inconveniently turn the blame on god. though logically thats the only option. so what to do my christian friends??

if god created his creation with an attraction to/prone to sin, how can his creation be blamed for having a sinful nature? it would be like blaming a building collapse on the building, rather than on the architect for designing it prone to collapsing

a weight lifter can either have limited or unlimited strength. a woman can either be pregnant or not be pregnant. a being can either have a sinful nature or sinless nature. there is nothing in between. either god created lucifer with a sinful nature or a sinless nature. which is it? if god created lucifer with a perfect sinless nature, then lucifer would have never had sinful thoughts and felt pride/jealousy self love etc..... however if god created lucifer with a sinful nature then god is to blame for sin/evil. to blame lucifer would be like getting a little child hooked on drugs and then blaming the child for using drugs.....but then you might argue it is still the child's fault because he has the free will to choose not to use drugs right??? how does that make any sense when it was you who turned him into a drug addict in the first place?? it is not the child's fault. it is your fault. you could only blame the child if he was clean before and chose to use drugs all on his own without prior addiction....... but much like the child in this example, lucifer was not clean, he was created with a sinful nature. already hooked on sin. already a sin addict.

thats about as clear as i can make this. the whole sin blame game in the bible is as rotten as a father sending his trusting unsuspecting daughter on her way knowing the brakes on the car are shot, and then eagerly blaming the daughter for getting into the accident that left her a quadriplegic...

rusra02 said:

The father did know his children could be sinners. God does not predestine humans to do what is bad. They make that decision.

You apparently do not grasp the gift of free will. God created the first couple as perfect humans, but not robots. They had the same gift God has, the ability to make moral choices. They chose to do what is wicked. Many imperfect people have chosen to do what is good.

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First off. Excellent last post Tomesortega. The fact that were born into sin and have such a tendency toward sin that were called "Sinners before we were born" clearly shows that either the Bible is lying or God is the one at fault. It is something that has always bothered ,and made no sense to me.


@Rusra: Focusing on the bold here. Are you implying that God has the ability to sin? It is stated that he cannot even look upon sin for it would destroy him. He even turned away from Jesus on the cross when we hear Jesus exclaim "My God, My God. Why has thou forsaken me?"

idea said:

from:

Did God create out of nothing - by Jamie Turner - Helium

" The Hebrew word “bara” which has been translated into the English languages as “create” actually means to shape or transform. Consider Isaiah 45:7 in which “bara” has been incorrectly translated in the King James Bible as “create”.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The Lord does not “create” evil and darkness; for we know that “God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.” – 1 John 1:5. God “transforms” evil and darkness into light and peace. Here is the same verse in which “bara” is translated correctly.

Isaiah 45:7 I transform darkness into light, I make peace, and transform evil, I the Lord do all these things.

"

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A couple of questions. Is this Jamie Turner the female Pastor? If so her past knowledge doesn't make her worth listening to on matters of translation as the only degree she has is a Bachelors in Bible and a Masters in Science.

Secondly, do you honestly believe this person knows better than the original translators? They didn't just grab a guy off the street to start translating. This translation was done by a very select group of scholars. The best that we have to offer, but I am to believe Jamie Turner trumps them? If there is an alternate way of interpreting the word then at the bottom of your Bible there is an * that shows you what it is.

So with this knowledge in mind you can rest assured that what is written is very likely what was intended. I believe what Jamie Turner is doing is called twisting the Bible, and God forbids it. He even kills you for it.

if god created "the devil" the source of all evil
the devil is doing exactly what the creator programmed him/it to be

so why do we blame the devil for influencing our thoughts and actions when in fact god is ultimately responsible, like the crafty serpent in the garden that was created to set man up for the fall?

Mestemia said:

So you, like myself, do not believe god to be all knowing?
Cool that.

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God can foretell the future and he often does. While he certainly could foreknow the future of each individual, he apparently chooses not to do so. That is why he told to Israelites to choose the course they wished to take. A person who is a gifted singer does not sing constantly, but controls when she will sing or not. God can choose to use his ability to foreknow or choose not to do so.

Poisonshady313 said:

I am the One Who forms light and creates darkness; Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Maker of all these.

Isaiah 45:7

Seems pretty clear.

You can spend pages nit picking about what omnibenevolence means... but there's you're answer.

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But, what if this wasn't true? Then where do you think sin and evil originated? If you prefer not to answer this question, it's fine. Just thought I would ask you what else you may feel.