dorsk188 said:
...I just wrote a very long post ripping Mormonism several new ones... Then accidentally lost the whole dang thing... Grrr...
Well, I guess I should take comfort in the fact that you were inconvenienced.
Let me do a summary:
EDIT: Disclaimer - Because this thread is in the debate forum, I felt free to be a bit inflammatory. Of course, everyone is free to believe anything they wish, and I don't want to hurt feelings, merely challange the ideas themselves. Hope that makes sense.
That reminds me of a woman I used to work with. For some reason, she took a lot of pleasure in insulting me, and every time she did, she'd preface her remarks by saying, "No offense but..." Now you're telling us that you "just wrote a very long post ripping Mormonism" but that you "don't want to hurt feelings." No, quite frankly, it
doesn't make sense. But for heaven's sake, don't let that stop you. We're not only used to it, we're up for it.
Not only is the BoM lacking credibility, I argue that it isn't even well written... I've tried to read the first book of Nephi... It's sad... Redundant, grammatically disasterous, piece of (insert expletive of local color).
So the Book of Mormon is now too wordy to be true? That's interesting. Look at these examples from the Bible:
[size=-1]Genesis 1:6-7 And God said, Let there be a
firmament in the midst of the
waters, and let it
divide the waters from the
waters. And God made the
firmament, and
divided the waters which were under the
firmament from the
waters which were above the
firmament: and it was so. [/size]
Joshua 24:27 And Joshua said unto all the people, Behold, this stone
shall be a witness unto us; for it hath heard all the words of the LORD which he spake unto us:
it shall be therefore a witness unto you, lest ye deny your God.
1 Samuel 4:9-10 Be strong, and
quit yourselves like men, O ye Philistines, that ye be not servants unto the Hebrews, as they have been to you:
quit yourselves like men, and fight. And the Philistines fought, and Israel was smitten, and they fled every man into his tent: and there was a very great slaughter; . . .
1 Samuel 4:21-22 And she named the child Ichabod, saying,
The glory is departed from Israel: because the ark of God was taken, and because of her father in law and her husband. And she said,
The glory is departed from Israel: for the ark of God is taken.
Job 12:12-13
With the ancient is wisdom; and in length of days understanding. With him is wisdom and strength, he hath counsel and understanding.
Couldn't any of these statements have been conveyed in about half the words?
All throughout, the narrator says again and again: "...I, Nephi,..." It's repeated so often that it seems like he's trying to convince the reader that he is, in fact, Nephi.
You're right. The phrase, "I, Nephi" does appear dozens and dozens of times in the books of 1 Nephi and 2 Nephi. Together, these comprise some 121 pages of the total Book of Mormon. And yet, in the book of Alma, which alone is 161 pages in length, the phrase, "I, Alma" appears only four times. Wouldn't Joseph Smith have had the same interest in convincing the read that he was Alma as you say he did in convincing the reader that he was Nephi?
The latest wordprint analyses,
including those by non-LDS groups, have indicated that the liklihood that a single author (ancient or 19th century) is extremely remote. I can provide specific data if you're interested.
In Chapter 18...
That's one sentence... Seems that Nephi wasn't one for ending his thoughts, merely blending them together into one long ropey piece of tripe. He did love breaking it up, though, with a stratigically placed "And so it came to pass..."
Unlike you, I find the occasional "awkwardness" in the Book of Mormon to be evidence for its authenticity. For instance, in the Semitic languages, there are only two verb tenses -- past and present -- while we use a myriad of verb tenses, such as past participle. Throughout the Book of Mormon, there is a consistency in verb usage which Joseph would have been highly unlikely to mimic, either intentionally or accidentally, had he simply been writing the book, instead of translating the book. There is the very frequent use of compound verbs such as, "did eat" and "did go," which are awkward in English but totally acceptable in the Semitic languages. The cognate accusative is also used extensively, in phrases such as "work a work" and "write a writing." Nobody would say this in English -- not even an unlearned farm boy. But such wording would be entirely common to Semitic writing.
EDIT: Just remembered my final sentence of the first version of this post: Remember, just because there are 12 million Mormons today doesn't mean Joseph Smith wasn't a conman; it just means he was a skilled conman.
I wouldn't push it if I were you. Obviously, the size of the Church doesn't prove anything, but this statement is clearly more indicative of your prejudice than it is that Joseph Smith is the con-man you accuse him of being. You're entitled to your opinion, but you'd have a hard time proving that this is anything more than just that -- your opinion. You may think that Mormons are a bunch of ignorant, naive suckers, but the fact is that there are a great many very intelligent Latter-day Saints. You can try to explain the growth of the Church by stating that Joseph Smith was a "skilled con-man." But there is obviously something about this religion that continues, over the years, to appeal to well-educated, bright men and women.
Kathryn
