How can any true Christian accept an Appointing of a gay bishop ?

Wannabe Yogi · Jul 14, 2010

Muffled said:
By that standard raping and murdering a 5 year old girl is normal also.

This statement is absurd. I know of no culture in the History of human beings that found it ok to rape and kill children of their own tribal units. It is a universal taboo. (you may find some group who did it but it was at least very rare). A majority of traditional cultures had homosexuality built into their society. It is only after the conquest of the Traditional Cultures by the Abrahamic faiths that Homosexuality became taboo.

It should be also stated that riches were looked down on in the early church. Yet today Christians seem to have no problem with that sin. Also soldiers were not allowed to join the church. Yet todays christians seem to have no problem with Violence today. It's just very convenient for strait people to hold out on this point. It makes folks feel like they are following Christ yet they have to renounce nothing to take up their cross.

Autodidact · Jul 14, 2010

Muffled said:
By that standard raping and murdering a 5 year old girl is normal also.

Really? So nowhere does Jesus condemn murder or rape? That's interesting.
How about you? Can you find any moral difference between loving a person of the same sex as you and raping and killing a child?

There is no way Jesus could have been gay because He was without sin.

Did you notice how you assumed your conclusion here? That's kind of a no-no.

The null hypothesis is never proof of anything. By that criteria you have never said that you didn't rape a five year old girl so you must have done it.

sorry, bad analogy. If the only reason these acts are seen as sin is "the Bible says so," and it doesn't, then they're not sin.

Christians are unpleasant when it comes to any kind of sin. If you are looking for approval of your sin don't look here.

Can we focus on figuring out whether in fact it is sin? If not, then you're just plain unpleasant.

Autodidact · Jul 14, 2010

rusra02 said:
Yes, I am aware that not all homosexual acts include sodomy. The Bible is clear about sexual acts between persons of the same sex, calling such acts disgraceful,unnatural, and obscene: "That is why God gave them up to disgraceful sexual appetites, for both their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature; and likewise even the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full recompense, which was due for their error." (Romans 1:26,27)

I think what the Bible is condemning here is unnatural sex. For a gay person, heterosexual sex is unnatural, and condemned by this passage.

As to whether I have ever gotten a haircut or shave, what in the world does that have to do with the discussion of whether a practicing homosexual should be a Christian leader? (to answer the question, yes, I have gotten both a shave and a haircut).

SINNER!

Oh, and hypocrite.

Wannabe Yogi · Jul 14, 2010

rusra02 said:
Yes, I am aware that not all homosexual acts include sodomy. The Bible is clear about sexual acts between persons of the same sex, calling such acts disgraceful,unnatural, and obscene:

Again picking and choosing the sins you don't like.

And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. Matt 19:24 (KJV)

All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.-Act 4:32-35

What did God do to Christians that did not give all their money.

Acts 5

1Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2With his wife's full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles' feet.
3Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God."

5When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. 6Then the young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.

7About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8Peter asked her, "Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?"
"Yes," she said, "that is the price."

9Peter said to her, "How could you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also."

10At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events. (niv)

Why don't you kick out all folks in the Army like the did in the early Church. What about the rich.? Why so much picking and choosing ?

You can keep the sins you like and enforce the one's you don't. This way it's easy to be holy.

Wannabe Yogi · Jul 14, 2010

jml03 said:
I believe myself to be a Christian, true or untrue doesn't matter to me. I believe Jesus died on the cross, in essence it was the last sacrifice that ever had to be made for my repentance - no more healthy livestock had to die.

But God gave me freewill and His Holy Spirit goes with me daily. God gave his word to prophets and the authors of the Bible. Because of this, I rely on the thoughts that God gives me on certain subjects more that the written word. Man/Woman is fallible. Translators are fallible. The same word can have multiple meanings, in any language. "Soda POP, I'm gonna POP your mouth, Don't POP the balloon".

Also, many books were written second hand, by a person not present for the actual event. They have to interpret what God has shown them in their own words. Plus, many books in the New Testament were written as letters to various churches to condone or condemn the actions of the members at the time.

The Bible has endured, therefore everything in there is there for a reason. Just because I don't interpret something the way another Christian does- well it doesn't mean that I'm wrong or they are wrong. It's not as simple as that. The words that Jesus spoke, I take them entirely to heart - He even wrote in parables, I believe, to give us each a way to make them a part of our life. They can be interpreted many ways.

This is all very good. I can respect your beliefs. To me from reading the bible about the expectations of a christian lifestyle were very high. The church followed many rules that todays American Christian just wants no part of following. Beliefs like the following:

-Can't defend your self. Die for Christ rather then hurt others.
-Give all money to the poor.
-No sex for fun, only for reproduction (This was from the liberal Christians like Clement of Alexandria, many Church Fathers believed in no sex at all.)

The only Christians I have ever meet that would be allowed to join a 1st century church do to life style are the Mother Theresa Nuns.

Should not all of us be less judgmental of each other.

James 5
1Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you. 2Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. 3Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. 4Look! The wages you failed to pay the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. 5You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter.[a] 6You have condemned and murdered innocent men, who were not opposing you.
(niv)

Half of all people in the world live on under $10 a day. By this standard most Americans are rich. We all eat better then the Kings of old. To keep our lifestyle we take the food out of the mouths of the poor. Buying a 3rd home is not a sin. Even though its clear that this is the sin of omission, its murder and that is what the bible says. Yet some how being Gay is much worse. Today you will be kicked out of Church for being Gay while many are told that God wants them to be rich.

sojourner · Jul 14, 2010

rusra02 said:
Yes, I am aware that not all homosexual acts include sodomy. The Bible is clear about sexual acts between persons of the same sex, calling such acts disgraceful,unnatural, and obscene: "That is why God gave them up to disgraceful sexual appetites, for both their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature; and likewise even the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full recompense, which was due for their error." (Romans 1:26,27)

As to whether I have ever gotten a haircut or shave, what in the world does that have to do with the discussion of whether a practicing homosexual should be a Christian leader? (to answer the question, yes, I have gotten both a shave and a haircut).

Why are such acts disgraceful? "Because God said so" isn't good enough.
The Levitican injunction against cutting one's hair is part of the holiness code that Xians are not under, just as homosexuality is.

David M · Jul 15, 2010

rusra02 said:
(to answer the question, yes, I have gotten both a shave and a haircut).

In that case you have broken God's laws as laid down in Leviticus. You have gone against God's word.

If you want to apply what Leviticus says about homosexuals to fellow christians then you have absolutely no choice but apply what Leviticus says about cutting your hair and shaving. Because nowhere in the NT does it detail which parts of the law no longer apply to christians.

You cannot choose which laws in Leviticus you want to invoke and claim a mandate from God. All you can claim is personal preference.

Without Leviticus you are pretty much left with the NT and the evidence is that when those passages were written they were not talking about a modern consenting homosexual relationship but something very different.

Taking both of these together it leads to the obvious conclusion that there is no valid biblical support for condemning homosexuals or campaigning against homosexual priests and bishops.

jml03 · Jul 15, 2010

Wannabe Yogi said:
This is all very good. I can respect your beliefs. To me from reading the bible about the expectations of a christian lifestyle were very high. The church followed many rules that todays American Christian just wants no part of following. Beliefs like the following:

-Can't defend your self. Die for Christ rather then hurt others.
-Give all money to the poor.
-No sex for fun, only for reproduction (This was from the liberal Christians like Clement of Alexandria, many Church Fathers believed in no sex at all.)

The only Christians I have ever meet that would be allowed to join a 1st century church do to life style are the Mother Theresa Nuns.

Should not all of us be less judgmental of each other.

James 5
1Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you. 2Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. 3Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. 4Look! The wages you failed to pay the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. 5You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter.[a] 6You have condemned and murdered innocent men, who were not opposing you.
(niv)

Half of all people in the world live on under $10 a day. By this standard most Americans are rich. We all eat better then the Kings of old. To keep our lifestyle we take the food out of the mouths of the poor. Buying a 3rd home is not a sin. Even though its clear that this is the sin of omission, its murder and that is what the bible says. Yet some how being Gay is much worse. Today you will be kicked out of Church for being Gay while many are told that God wants them to be rich.

This is very true. We are told that God wants us to prosper. I don't believe that is necessarily what He meant. Maybe it was to prosper in His word, to live a full life thru Him.

McBell · Jul 15, 2010

sojourner said:
"Because God said so" isn't good enough.

Really?
Seems to me that God would disagree.

TEXASBULL · Jul 15, 2010

Mestemia said:
Really?
Seems to me that God would disagree.

God has never " said " anything in an audible voice. It is always in peoples minds. They verbally tell us what God said to them even though we never heard God tell them in person, then eventually it is written in a book, then 1000's of years later we have Mormons!

rusra02 · Jul 15, 2010

Wannabe Yogi said:
Again picking and choosing the sins you don't like.

And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. Matt 19:24 (KJV)

All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.-Act 4:32-35

What did God do to Christians that did not give all their money.

Acts 5

1Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2With his wife's full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles' feet.
3Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God."

5When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. 6Then the young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.

7About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8Peter asked her, "Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?"
"Yes," she said, "that is the price."

9Peter said to her, "How could you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also."

10At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events. (niv)

Why don't you kick out all folks in the Army like the did in the early Church. What about the rich.? Why so much picking and choosing ?

You can keep the sins you like and enforce the one's you don't. This way it's easy to be holy.

The early Christians gave of their possessions voluntarily, and were not coerced into doing so. They saw a need their new brothers had and they filled it. Ananias and his wife died as a judgment from God, but not because they were required to sell their field and give the proceeds to the apostles.

Ananias sold a field and donated part of the money to the relief fund. However, with his wifes full knowledge, he pretended that he had donated the entire amount. No doubt, this couple wanted to gain special honor within the congregation. But their act was deceitful. In a miraculous way, Jehovah revealed the fraud to the apostle Peter, who confronted Ananias with his error. At that, Ananias fell down and expired. Shortly thereafter, his co-conspirator Sapphira also died.Acts 5:1-11.
Ananias and Sapphira did not fall prey to a momentary weakness. They schemed and lied in an attempt to deceive the apostles. Worse still, they played false to the holy spirit and to God.

It is not a sin to be rich. Jesus pointed out the dangers inherent in having great riches, but did not say it was sinful. In fact, the Bible shows some early Christians were wealthy. (I Timothy 6:17)

As to Christians being soldiers, you are correct that a true Christian cannot serve as a soldier. Christ clearly taught his followers to be peaceable. When Jesus was being arrested, the apostle Peter tried to defend him with a lethal weapon. But the Son of God reprimanded him, saying: Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword. (Matthew 26:52) How first-century Christians applied those words is noted in the following quotation: A careful review of all the information available [shows] that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [121-180 C.E.], no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.The Rise of Christianity.
Thus, if a person professing to be a true Christian becomes a soldier trained and ready to kill fellow humans, they thereby renounce the faith they profess by their actions.
Jehovah's witnesses were executed in Nazi Germany and Russia, and imprisoned in England and the U.S for exactly the same reason: They refused to bear arms and kill their fellow man, and they continue to renounce war and violence today in whatever nation they live, and at whatever cost to themselves.

True Christians must keep all God's laws and will not pick and choose what laws they will obey. That is one identifying mark of who really are true Christians.

rusra02 · Jul 15, 2010

Autodidact said:
I think what the Bible is condemning here is unnatural sex. For a gay person, heterosexual sex is unnatural, and condemned by this passage.

SINNER! Oh, and hypocrite.

The Bible is quite clear as to what it is saying. Whether you choose to accept what the Bible says is your decision.
Do you consider shaving or cutting your hair a sin? The Bible doesn't require Christians to grow a beard, and the law did not require a man to avoid cutting his hair.

The Voice of Reason · Jul 15, 2010

rusra02 said:
True Christians must keep all God's laws and will not pick and choose what laws they will obey. That is one identifying mark of who really are true Christians.

So you are saying that, since you have cut your hair and shaved your whiskers, that you aren't a true Christian?

I would submit that there is no such thing as a true Christian - using your definition of the term.

rusra02 · Jul 15, 2010

The Voice of Reason said:
So you are saying that, since you have cut your hair and shaved your whiskers, that you aren't a true Christian?

I would submit that there is no such thing as a true Christian - using your definition of the term.

Why do you believe cutting your hair or shaving is a sin?

Doodlebug02 · Jul 15, 2010

Personally, I don't accept the appointing of a gay bishop. Of course, this did not happen in the Catholic Church but in the Episcopal Church so I am not too worried.

McBell · Jul 15, 2010

rusra02 said:
The Bible is quite clear as to what it is saying. Whether you choose to accept what the Bible says is your decision.
Do you consider shaving or cutting your hair a sin? The Bible doesn't require Christians to grow a beard, and the law did not require a man to avoid cutting his hair.

Actually, the Bible is not clear.
Thus the reason for more than 38,000 different Christian sects.

The Voice of Reason · Jul 15, 2010

rusra02 said:
Why do you believe cutting your hair or shaving is a sin?

Did you not see the following post:

David M said:
Leviticus 19:27 "" 'Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard"

The bible tells you not to cut your hair or clip off the edges of your beard.

Which is it? Are you not a true Christian, or are you wrong about what a "true Christian" is?

The Voice of Reason · Jul 15, 2010

Doodlebug02 said:
Personally, I don't accept the appointing of a gay bishop. Of course, this did not happen in the Catholic Church but in the Episcopal Church so I am not too worried.

Excellent.

Of course, if the Catholic Church ever allows homosexuals to take to the pulpit, you'll have to find a new group of bigots with which to align yourself ...

McBell · Jul 15, 2010

Doodlebug02 said:
Personally, I don't accept the appointing of a gay bishop. Of course, this did not happen in the Catholic Church but in the Episcopal Church so I am not too worried.

Well, the Catholic Church has no problems with appointing gays as Priests.
Seems to me it is merely a matter of time before they make it to Bishop.

The Voice of Reason · Jul 15, 2010

Mestemia said:
Well, the Catholic Church has no problems with appointing gays as Priests.
Seems to me it is merely a matter of time before they make it to Bishop.

OOOOHHHH! It sounds like someone is going to have to start looking around at other churches before too long ....

How can any true Christian accept an Appointing of a gay bishop ?

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