Earth is much younger than previously thought

S-word · Jul 15, 2010

[quote=RedOne77;2084858]I was Poeing when I said that. Should have added in a wink, but so it goes.
Are you a Buddhist or a Hindu?

I, the mind/spirit that is developing within this body through all the experiences and information that is taken in through the senses of this body, was not conceived of the teaching of any Buddhist, Muslim, Christian or scientific body of belief. I eat from the tables that are prepared by all the different bodies of belief, and harvest from fields in which I didnt sow and in which I have never laboured, I am not a son of any particular religious or scientific body of belief, I am a Son of Man. And I believe in an eternal cyclic three dimensional universal body, which is the best model of the universe according to the accumulated data of today.

quote=RedOne77; Genesis 2:4 is not talking about an endless cycle, just the history of the universe as perceived by the ancient Hebrews. I am aware Buddhism and Hinduism (especially Hinduism) has cyclic periods of universes that will continue until all reach Brahman or Nirvana. I hold a similar view, only except our spirit will have only one physical life in which we will be 'judged' and the unrighteous will be cast down into 'Hell' where God will purify them until they are ready to be in 'Heaven'.

I see that you are not familiar with the scriptures which state that God is calling all creation back to himself and that he is to create for us a new heavens and a new earth, in other words, a new universe. Genesis 2: 4; Is talking about the generations of the universe, it speaks of a series of worlds following one upon the other,-- each world rising a step higher than the previous world, so that every later world brings to ripeness the seeds that were imbedded in the former, and itself then prepares the seed for the universe that will follow it.

quote=RedOne77; This is an interesting take on the whole thing, but I fail to see what this has to do with anything mentioned in the thread.

Mine is but a response to your suggestion that we should toss out all of this scientific rubbish and put our faith in the creator.

quote=RedOne77; That's a little pessimistic. Black holes aren't that bad, if a one solar mass black hole was to replace our sun all the planets would still keep their orbit, just no energy would be emitted.

All energy radiating from the bodies within the solar system would be sucked into your one solar mass black hole, and we know that Jupiter, which is accumulating more and more mass with every comet and asteroid strike and continues to condense, radiates more energy than it receives from the sun.

quote=RedOne77; Lets not forget Andromeda.

Andromeda is on a collision course with our Milky Way galaxy and may merge with us before we go into orbit around the great gatherer to which we and Andromeda are falling in toward.

quote=RedOne77; Sadly though, galaxies that are far away aren't going to come near us, but be taken further and further apart due to dark energy. Your continual gathering of galaxies is a little off.

Yes, there are many other galactic clusters out there in the boundlessness of the eternal cosmos, which are falling in toward the many other Great Gatherers that exist out there in there own particular space-time positions.

quote=RedOne77; A cluster of galaxies is not a universe in modern astronomy. The best definition (that is also relatively simple) is essentially a single space-time continuum.

I believe that what I said was, For my own benefit, I classify all those galactic clusters as universes.

quote=RedOne77; Last I heard the overall mass of the universe is very close to the critical mass index, but new info suggests that it might be lower, giving the end of the universe a heat death, not a renewal cyclic universe(s).[/quote]

2nd Peter 3: 12-13; Peter speaks of the day when the heavens will burn up and be destroyed, and then goes on to say that they wait for what God has promised; A new heavens and a new earth, etc. A new universe that will undoubtedly be created from the material of the old universe. Peter reveals the Greek teachings of those who lived in the Hellenistic cities of northern Galilee where Jesus did most of his ministering and where most of the mighty miracles were performed, only going down to Jerusalem on the important festivals.

Enoch was escorted to the ends of time and speaks of the day that the heavens will roll up as a scroll with a great hissing noise, when the universal elements will become so excited they will burn up and fall as massive columns of fire beyond all measure in height and depth into the Great Abyss, beyond which there is absolutely nothing, but a horrible waste. And when he asked the escorting angels what place that was, he was told that it was the end of all things, and that the Great Abyss/Black Hole, was the prison of all the stars and the host of heaven. The black Hole into which this earth which is currently somewhere around 4.5 billion years old, will be torn apart and condensed with the rest of this universal body, into an infinitely dense, infinitely hot, infinitesimally small singularity, where, from a different time dimension, the supreme personality of Godhead, or Most High in the creation, will cry out, Let there be Light, as he witnesss the Logos empty itself in the creation of a new universal body, which is the image and likeness of the universal body in which He The Omega had developed.

RedOne77 · Jul 15, 2010

S-word said:
I see that you are not familiar with the scriptures which state that God is calling all creation back to himself and that he is to create for us a new heavens and a new earth, in other words, a new universe.Genesis 2: 4; Is talking about the generations of the universe, it speaks of a series of worlds following one upon the other,-- each world rising a step higher than the previous world, so that every later world brings to ripeness the seeds that were imbedded in the former, and itself then prepares the seed for the universe that will follow it.

I am somewhat familiar with those scriptures, which is partially why I'm a universalist. Genesis 2:4; when it says "generations" is referring to the history of this world so far. It is not talking about a series of worlds or universes, such talk is heretical in that context.

Mine is but a response to your suggestion that

we should toss out all of this scientific rubbish and put our faith in the creator.

And it was my YEC alter ego that said it.

All energy radiating from the bodies within the solar system would be sucked into your one solar mass black hole, and we know that Jupiter, which is accumulating more and more mass with every comet and asteroid strike and continues to condense, radiates more energy than it receives from the sun.

The black hole will not suck everything into it. That is pop-science in sci-fi. All the planets, comets, asteroids and all else in orbit around our Sun would still orbit in essentially the same path. Any mass that Jupiter accumulates from comets or asteroids is so minute there is really no point to mention it when talking about its mass. It is on par with saying that because a small meteorite that can easily fit into a babies hand landed on Earth we need to recalculate our planets mass.

Andromeda is on a collision course with our Milky Way galaxy and may merge with us before we go into orbit around the great gatherer to which we and Andromeda are falling in toward.

Andromeda is set to collide with us in ruffly 4.5 billion years. While we are falling into our local cluster of galaxies, dark energy is pulling us apart faster than we are falling. So we will never collapse into a super cluster of galaxies, even though we are gravitationally attracted.

I believe that what I said was,

For my own benefit, I classify all those galactic clusters as universes.

Just as long as you are aware your deffinition is not recognized as correct in modern science.

2nd Peter 3: 12-13; Peter speaks of the day when the heavens will burn up and be destroyed, and then goes on to say that they wait for what God has promised; A new heavens and a new earth, etc. A new universe that will undoubtedly be created from the material of the old universe.

"Heat death" doesn't reffer to a 'burning' of the heavens, but the exact opposite. A chemically dead universe that will only be cold with no useable energy left which means no heating of anything. Orthodox teaching doesn't teach that a new universe will form as you describe, such teaching falls under heresy.

Enoch was escorted to the ends of time and speaks of the day that the heavens will roll up as a scroll with a great hissing noise, when the universal elements will become so excited they will burn up and fall as massive columns of fire beyond all measure in height and depth into the Great Abyss, beyond which there is absolutely nothing, but a horrible waste. And when he asked the escorting angels what place that was, he was told that it was the end of all things, and that the Great Abyss/Black Hole, was the prison of all the stars and the host of heaven.

You read too much into a 'literal' interpretation of texts mixed in with 'science' on passages that simply weren't meant to be taken so literally, especially in our culture that revolves around science which simply wasn't present during that time. No matter how much matter the black hole at the center of our galaxy gets, the overall mass in the galaxy will remain the same, keeping the star systems on the spiral arms (like ours) on essentially the same path it has always taken around the galaxy. Black holes aren't this crazy psychotic phenomenon as depicted in pop culture.

The black Hole into which this earth which is currently somewhere around 4.5 billion years old, will be torn apart and condensed with the rest of this universal body, into an infinitely dense, infinitely hot, infinitesimally small singularity, where, from a different time dimension, the supreme personality of Godhead, or Most High in the creation, will cry out, Let there be Light, as he witnesss the Logos empty itself in the creation of a new universal body, which is the image and likeness of the universal body in which He The Omega had developed.

Lets say that all the galaxies will condense into a black hole and will someday start expanding creating a new universe. Each time this happens, the universe will lose energy, making such a proccess non-eternal. If you talk about God in a different time dimension, what do you mean by this? Time and space is a single property, so where is this 'space' that God is from?

Doodlebug02 · Jul 15, 2010

Rationality said:
People focus so much time on how old the earth is, and they focus so little time on earth's beauty.

Yep and that is sad. As for me, I do not focus on the earth's age. I do believe that the earth and the whole universe was created by God but I do not put a time limit on God.

PolyHedral said:
I notice that the article talks about timespans of tens of millions of years, rather than of ten thousand years normally used in creationism. Orders of magnitude, much?

lol! Unfortunately, the fundamentalists will continue to believe as they have believed for a long time. I personally believe what true science says. I reject pseudoscience.

Revoltingest said:
A little more research & perhaps they'll be able to get the Earth down to 6K years old.
Only about 4.5 billion to go!

lol!

RedOne77 said:
This just goes to show you that scientists have no idea what is they are doing. Next thing you know they'll be talking about how babies have their own language, how the human body emits visible light, or how the speed of light really has changed over the history of the universe. They don't know what they're doing, but God does. So read your Bible and toss out all of this scientific rubbish and put your faith in the creator.

I hope you are just joking here. I have faith in my Creator but having faith in my Creator does not mean that I have to put a time limit on Him.

Sententia · Jul 15, 2010

Doodlebug02 said:
Yep and that is sad. As for me, I do not focus on the earth's age. I do believe that the earth and the whole universe was created by God but I do not put a time limit on God.
lol! Unfortunately, the fundamentalists will continue to believe as they have believed for a long time. I personally believe what true science says. I reject pseudoscience.
lol!
I hope you are just joking here. I have faith in my Creator but having faith in my Creator does not mean that I have to put a time limit on Him.

If you want to worship your creator talk to your mom and dad. They created you.

But lets see if I can find some room to agree... whats the current definition of god these days?

A Dictionary said:
Main Entry: 1god
Pronunciation: \ˈgäd also ˈgȯd\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English; akin to Old High German got god
Date: before 12th century
1 capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe b Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind
2 : a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality
3 : a person or thing of supreme value
4 : a powerful ruler

a person or thing of supreme value

Hmmm... a Thing of Supreme Value... Perhaps I could see that. :shrug:

darkendless · Jul 15, 2010

Its sad how a factual debate can turn into spiritual garbage and scriptual nonsense so quickly. Come on, stick to facts.

S-word · Jul 16, 2010

RedOne77 said:
I am somewhat familiar with those scriptures, which is partially why I'm a universalist. Genesis 2:4; when it says "generations" is referring to the history of this world so far. It is not talking about a series of worlds or universes, such talk is heretical in that context.

RedOne77 said:
In every instance where the Hebrew "toledoth" is used, it referes to descendants, sorry old mate, but genesis 2: 4; is refering to seven periods of universal activity, each cycle repeating the precedure of the cycle that it followed before evloving a little further, and then itself descending into the seemingly bottomless pit of darkness. As a “Universalist” is one who believes that salvation is extended to all humankind; especially a member of a Christian denomination that adheres to this doctrine, when you say that you are a "Universalist," do you mean that you are a member of the universal church that was established in 325 AD, by the non=Christian and almost certainly theologically illiterate King Constantine, who had his son and his wife murdered, and who was made a saint by the authorities of that church, who refuse to acknowledge that Jesus came as a human being, but who believe instead, that he was an eternal God who existed before space and time began and who was supposedly the co-creator of the cosmos, who came down to earth and entered into the womb of some supposed virgin, where his father created for him a humanlike body that was not of the seed of Adam, who is the Father of every human being who has ever or will ever live and thereby did not inherit the penalty that was incurred by Adam, who has become every human being that has ever or will ever live. This of course means that you must believe that the supposed virgin mother of that human-like body was not of the seed of Adam also, but had to have been immaculately conceived herself, which means that her mother had to have been immaculately conceived also, which means that her mother etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. Out of fear of the "Universalists," Nicolaus Copernicus did not dare to publish his sun-centred model of the universe until he was on his death bed, and Galileo Galilei, who was constantly in conflict with the authorities of the Universal church was also labelled as a heretic for skilfully arguing for Copernicus’ views, finally died under house arrest as a prisoner of the inquisition. I would deem it to be an honour to be labelled a heretic, by the “Universalists."

quote=RedOne77; The black hole will not suck everything into it. That is pop-science in sci-fi.

To begin with, our sun does not contain enough mass to become a black hole or even a less compact object such as a neutron star, but if a black hole were to appear in the centre of our solar system, something that could never happen, you could kiss goodbye to the bodies that now orbit our sun. In a binary system where one object, ‘a normal visible star,’ is orbiting another object, which is a black hole, in which all matter that is captured by that gravitational body is concentrated at a single point in the centre, which point, the physicists call a singularity, it will strip all the energy/gases from that star, until the star itself is eventually devoured.

Matter that is stripped from the visible star, when it reaches the event horizon of the black hole, heats up to millions of degrees, the energy that radiates from this source as X-rays has been detected by Astronomers. At the surface or event horizon of a black hole, the pull of gravity becomes infinitely strong and an object can exist there for only an instant as it plunges inward at light speeds to the singularity of ever growing mass. The greater the mass of a black hole, the more that the fabric of space is warped and the more objects will be trapped and fall into the yawning mouth of the Great Abyss.

Over the aeons, the Milky Way galaxy has been expanding on other galactic systems which merge into it as they fall in toward the massive black hole that is continuing to grow in mass, as the old star systems which have migrated in toward the centre and have reached the event horizon, are heated up to the millions of degree where they are torn apart, particle by particle and are pulled in at light speed as they are gathered to the singularity. But our Galaxy as with so many others, are falling in toward another super duper black hole, far, far more massive than the one at the centre of our being. For the Greatest of all gatherers, is calling all creation back to himself, from which he will create for us, a new heavens and a new earth.

quote=RedOne77; All the planets, comets, asteroids and all else in orbit around our Sun would still orbit in essentially the same path.

Only if the mass at the centre, around which they orbit remains the same, and that mass can only become a white dwarf, but just as a matter of interest, Jupiter, which we know did not once exist, but began to grow and has been continuously growing from the cloud of elements/waters, that were divided from the nebular cloud/waters, that was created from the collapse of a first generation star, and Jupiter is still gathering more material as it continues to condense and radiate more and more energy. How much more mass must that planet gather before it can become a “Brown Dwarf”?

quote=RedOne77; Any mass that Jupiter accumulates from comets or asteroids is so minute there is really no point to mention it when talking about its mass. It is on par with saying that because a small meteorite that can easily fit into a babies hand landed on Earth we need to recalculate our planets mass.

And so says the “Universalist.”

quote=RedOne77; Andromeda is set to collide with us in ruffly 4.5 billion years. While we are falling into our local cluster of galaxies, dark energy is pulling us apart faster than we are falling. So we will never collapse into a super cluster of galaxies, even though we are gravitationally attracted.

And ROUGHLY, from where did you gather the knowledge to come to this conclusion? We know that the larger Magellanic Cloud (Nebecula Major) and the smaller Magellanic Cloud (Nebecula Minor) are two galaxies that are not speeding away from us, but are in fact orbiting our Milky Way galaxy, which orbits the central Super Black Hole to which those Magellanic Clouds are being gathered and that they will one day merge with our galaxy. It is also believed that of the many black holes within our galaxy that are orbiting the super black hole which anchors us in space, some, if not all, were at the centre of dwarf galaxies that have merged with us, in fact it is believed that a dwarf galaxy about 30,000 light-years away, which is called the “Virgo Stellar Stream” is actually merging with our Milky Way galaxy.

Both the Milky Way and the Andromeda galaxies are thought to be moving in the direction of the Great Attractor, or Great Gatherer as I like to call them. They are not speeding away from each other, but are believed to be on a collision course: and their paths toward the Great Gatherer will intersect in some 3 to 4 billion years time. Over the billion or so years that it will take for the two galaxies to completely merge and form a single elliptical galaxy, the likelihood of any individual stars colliding in the merging process is extremely improbable.

Do you not find it amazing, that this entire cosmos has been formed from the gathering of the quantum of the liquid-like electromagnetic energy that was spewed out in the billions of degrees within seconds immediately following the Big Bang, which quantum is believed to be wave particles which are not particles at all as they have zero mass and no electric charge, but carry linear and angular momentum?

quote=RedOne77; Just as long as you are aware your deffinition is not recognized as correct in modern science.

Just as long as you are aware that it does not concern me if my terminology is not recognised as being correct according to the modern science of today, which is the old and incorrect science relative to the modern science of tomorrow. As my time on the computer is very limited, this will have "To Be Continued," that is of course, if it is the will of our God-child "The Son of Man," The Lord of Time and Space.

S-word · Jul 17, 2010

BalanceFx said:
If you want to worship your creator talk to your mom and dad. They created you. But lets see if I can find some room to agree... whats the current definition of god these days?

a person or thing of supreme value

Hmmm... a Thing of Supreme Value... Perhaps I could see that.

Her mother and father may have been driven by an inner desire to jump into the cot and have sex, but it was not they who created the egg in her mother's body, nor did they create the semen in the body of her father, which semen, fertilised that egg.

It was not her parents, who took the universal elements and created from them the grain, fruit, vegetables and meat, which would be eaten by her mother, and from those universal elements create all the parts of the physical body in which she, the mind/spirit, who is a potential child of God has evolved and continues to develop from the information and experiences that are gathered through the living senses of that body, which, without those senses, she, the mind/spirit, the supreme personality or controlling godhead to that body, could never have developed.

I think you should re-evaluate your belief that it was her parents who created her body.

McBell · Jul 17, 2010

S-word said:
Her mother and father may have been driven by an inner desire to jump into the cot and have sex, but it was not they who created the egg in her mother's body, nor did they create the semen in the body of her father, which semen, fertilised that egg.

Here you show extreme ignorance of basic biology and sex education.

S-word said:
It was not her parents, who took the universal elements and created from them the grain, fruit, vegetables and meat, which would be eaten by her mother, and from those universal elements create all the parts of the physical body in which she, the mind/spirit, who is a potential child of God has evolved and continues to develop from the information and experiences that are gathered through the living senses of that body, which, without those senses, she, the mind/spirit, the supreme personality or controlling godhead to that body, could never have developed.

Wow.
Are you really that desperate to give God credit for something?
Or is it perhaps your God that is so desperate for credit?

S-word said:
I think you should re-evaluate your belief that it was her parents who created her body.

I think you should really get yourself into a class that teaches sixth grade biology so that you do not look as foolish as you do now.

Skwim · Jul 17, 2010

Mestemia said:
I think you should really get yourself into a class that teaches sixth grade biology so that you do not look as foolish as you do now.

Yeah, that was pretty sad. Makes one wonder.

RedOne77 · Jul 18, 2010

S-word said:
In every instance where the Hebrew "toledoth" is used, it referes to descendants, sorry old mate, but genesis 2: 4; is refering to seven periods of universal activity, each cycle repeating the precedure of the cycle that it followed before evloving a little further, and then itself descending into the seemingly bottomless pit of darkness.

Each 'birth' is a day. So one period, "yom", was when God did X, next period of time He did Y. Until the end of the sixth period when God stopped. It is all about the history of this universe/world, not about multiple universes one after the other.

As a Universalist is one who believes that salvation is extended to all humankind; especially a member of a Christian denomination that adheres to this doctrine, when you say that you are a "Universalist," do you mean that you are a member of the universal church that was established in 325 AD, by the non=Christian and almost certainly theologically illiterate King Constantine,

No. There really is no universalist sect in Christianity today, and people from a wide range of denominations adhere to universalist ideas while retaining their denomination. I happen to be Methodist, a branch founded by John Wesley in the 18th century.

This of course means that you must believe that the supposed virgin mother of that human-like body was not of the seed of Adam also, but had to have been immaculately conceived herself, which means that her mother had to have been immaculately conceived also, which means that her mother etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.

Now this is heritical. By "heritical", I don't mean what is heresy to my denomination, simply standard Christianity. Also, if you go down this route, you can stop after Mary's mother. But such is irrlevent as I reject this idea (only Mary was virgin) and original sin - Adam was not a real person (and Ezekiel 18). Since you don't know what I do believe, please refrain from conjecturing on what I do believe and presenting it as fact.

Out of fear of the "Universalists," Nicolaus Copernicus did not dare to publish his sun-centred model of the universe until he was on his death bed, and Galileo Galilei, who was constantly in conflict with the authorities of the Universal church was also labelled as a heretic for skilfully arguing for Copernicus views, finally died under house arrest as a prisoner of the inquisition. I would deem it to be an honour to be labelled a heretic, by the Universalists."

Are you confusing universalist with Catholicism? I am not part of the Roman Catholic church. The Catholic church doesn't adhere to universal doctrine. They believe in eternal Hell, such is antithetical to Christian universalsim. If you are going to connect me to some evil or otherwise hated group or people, at least get the connection right.

To begin with, our sun does not contain enough mass to become a black hole or even a less compact object such as a neutron star, but if a black hole were to appear in the centre of our solar system, something that could never happen, you could kiss goodbye to the bodies that now orbit our sun.

No, listen to what I said. If a one (1) solar mass black hole (same mass as the sun) were to replace the sun, the orbits around the sun would not change. You can theoretically get a black hole with the mass of the sun. A black hole doesn't have to be massive, the only requirement is that it bends light around itself at the event horizon (it all has to do with the relationship between mass and radius). The point I'm making is that black holes don't destroy everything around it, and get far enough away (which isn't that much) and it behaves like any other object with the same mass gravity wise.

In a binary system where one object, a normal visible star, is orbiting another object, which is a black hole, in which all matter that is captured by that gravitational body is concentrated at a single point in the centre, which point, the physicists call a singularity, it will strip all the energy/gases from that star, until the star itself is eventually devoured.

Yes, but the binary star has to be close enough. If it is not close enough than the binary system will continue as it always has (in orbit). Not all binary systems form accretion disks.

Over the aeons, the Milky Way galaxy has been expanding on other galactic systems which merge into it as they fall in toward the massive black hole that is continuing to grow in mass,

I'm not sure you understand that they are attracted to the overall mass of the galaxy, which is centered in the middle, and not to the black hole(s) because they are black hole(s), just the mass, with or without the black hole(s).

But our Galaxy as with so many others, are falling in toward another super duper black hole, far, far more massive than the one at the centre of our being. For the Greatest of all gatherers, is calling all creation back to himself, from which he will create for us, a new heavens and a new earth.

While we are falling twords the super Virgo cluster, we will never reach there because of the repulsive force of dark energy is greater than the gravitational attraction.

How much more mass must that planet gather before it can become a Brown Dwarf?

About 13 times its mass now. Something that is not going to happen unless something drastic changes. Just as a conjecture, when Sol ends its life and sheds its outer layers into a nebula it may be possible to accrete with Jupiter increasing its mass enough to form a binary star system in the future.

quote=RedOne77; Any mass that Jupiter accumulates from comets or asteroids is so minute there is really no point to mention it when talking about its mass. It is on par with saying that because a small meteorite that can easily fit into a babies hand landed on Earth we need to recalculate our planets mass.

And so says the Universalist.

This has nothing to do with theology but science. A mere asteroid or comet being absorbed by Jupiter is so small in mass compared to the planet there is no practical reason to recalculate the mass as you would get essentially the same as before.

And ROUGHLY, from where did you gather the knowledge to come to this conclusion?

Um, it is standard astronomy. Just take the 'velocity' of the two, calculate how far away it is, and figure out when it will collide. What exactly is your objection?

We know that t

he larger Magellanic Cloud (Nebecula Major) and the smaller Magellanic Cloud (Nebecula Minor) are two galaxies that are not speeding away from us, but are in fact orbiting our Milky Way galaxy, which orbits the central Super Black Hole to which those Magellanic Clouds are being gathered and that they will one day merge with our galaxy. It is also believed that of the many black holes within our galaxy that are orbiting the super black hole which anchors us in space, some, if not all, were at the centre of dwarf galaxies that have merged with us, in fact it is believed that a dwarf galaxy about 30,000 light-years away, which is called the Virgo Stellar Stream is actually merging with our Milky Way galaxy.

Yes, because these galaxies are close to us. When you get further out all the galaxies are receding from us. Only the galaxies or star clusters in our immediate vicinity are going to merge. For those out further dark energy will eventually make them go so fast away from us we will no longer see them (assuming we're still here).

Both the Milky Way and the Andromeda galaxies are thought to be moving in the direction of the Great Attractor, or Great Gatherer as I like to call them. They are not speeding away from each other, but are believed to be on a collision course: and their paths toward the Great Gatherer will intersect in some 3 to 4 billion years time. Over the billion or so years that it will take for the two galaxies to completely merge and form a single elliptical galaxy, the likelihood of any individual stars colliding in the merging process is extremely improbable.

They are moving in that direction, but the dark energy will have a stronger effect than the attraction so we will never collide. I'm not denying that we are gravitationally attracted and falling 'towards' them. However, the expansion of the universe is happening so fast that it will overcome the gravitational attraction. That is what I'm saying.

Just as long as you are aware that it does not concern me if my terminology is not recognised as being correct according to the modern science of today, which is the old and incorrect science relative to the modern science of tomorrow.

And how do you know that your terminology is really going to be correct in the future? People use terms correctly for a reason, they have accepted definitions and when used properly everyone knows exactly what you're talking about. Having your own pet definitions does nothing but hurt your credibility.

S-word · Jul 18, 2010

quote=Mestemia; Here you show extreme ignorance of basic biology and sex education.

S-word’s response; “WHERE”?

S-word’s original quote; Her mother and father may have been driven by an inner desire to jump into the cot and have sex, but It was not her parents who took the universal elements and created from them the grain, fruit, vegetables and meat, which would be eaten by her mother, and from those universal elements create all the parts of the physical body in which she, the mind/spirit, who is a potential child of God has evolved and continues to develop from the information and experiences that are gathered through the living senses of that body, which, without those senses, she, the mind/spirit, the supreme personality or controlling godhead to that body, could never have developed.

S-word’s response; Are you denying that the grain, fruit, vegetables, and meat that were eaten by the mother, were created from the universal elements? And are you denying that from the grain, fruit, vegetables and meat that were created from the universal elements, the body in which Doodlebug02 developed, was created?

“Considering that I was merely pointing out that “BalanceFx,” assumptions that the parents of “Doodlebug02” had anything to do with the actual creation of the body in which the mind that is “Doodlebug02” has developed, were way off the Mark, and make no mention of who or what created the egg in her mother's body, nor who or what created the semen in the body of her father, which semen, fertilised that egg, but simply make the point that her parents had no part in the actual creation of the body in which Doodlebug02 evolved, would you please show to us O Mestemia the great and mighty mind, where I am showing some extreme ignorance of basic biology and sex education?

In my reference to an inner desire that caused the parents of Doodlebug02 to jump into the cot together, I didn’t bother going into any great detail as to the cause of those inner desires, which could have been caused by pheromones that either attract of repel certain individuals, or could have been influenced by individual genetic, psychological or cultural factors, or even some more amorphous qualities of her parents.

quote=Mestemia; Wow. Are you really that desperate to give God credit for something?
Or is it perhaps your God that is so desperate for credit?

S-word’s response; Are you so desperate to deny a creative universal force, that you will sink to the depths of ignorance and defend and agree with the belief of BalanceFx, that the parents of Doodlebug02, had the resources and knowledge to be able to create a living human body in which the mind that is Doodlebug02 was able to evolve on the information and experiences that were gathered by the living senses of that body?

quote=Mestemia; I think you should really get yourself into a class that teaches sixth grade biology so that you do not look as foolish as you do now.

S-word’s response; Before you make a bigger fool of yourself than you already have, I think you should re-evaluate your defense of BalanceFx's statment that it was the parents of Doodlebug02, who created the body in which she, the mind/spirit has and continues to evolve on the information and experiences that are gathered through the senses of that body.

But the wife and I, who are both kicking the guts out of seventy, are off in the morning for a 4 to 6 week fishing trip to the gulf at the top end of Australia, the Van's all packed and the wife has already gone to bed ready for an early start and I'm just about to join her, so I'll see you all, and especially you, me old mate Mestemia, when and if we get back.

Kerr · Jul 18, 2010

Man of Faith said:
Oh and by the way, the earth is warming and we're all going to die in 5 years if we don't raise your taxes. Sometimes science looks more like politics.

Or... science is sometimes used by people who has their own agenda? Just like faith and basically everything else.

Kerr · Jul 18, 2010

Man of Faith said:
It's another day, what does science say today? How long before they get it right, say 10,000 years?

Maybe they already got it right?

S-word · Jul 18, 2010

RedOne 77; Each 'birth' is a day. So one period, "yom", was when God did X, next period of time He did Y. Until the end of the sixth period when God stopped. It is all about the history of this universe/world, not about multiple universes one after the other.

Yep, each period of universal activity before darkness descended once more and there was an equal period of universal rest, was a generation of the universe.

RedOne 77; No. There really is no universalist sect in Christianity today, and people from a wide range of denominations adhere to universalist ideas while retaining their denomination. I happen to be Methodist, a branch founded by John Wesley in the 18th century.

Don’t matter much, all denomination such as the one that you belong to were spawned by the false doctrines of the universal church and are but the daughters that have come out of her body of belief, which refuses to acknowledge that Jesus came as a human being, but instead, came as an immortal and eternal god who entered the womb of some imaginary virgin , where his father created for him a human like body which was not an extension of Adam and therefore free of the penalty of his sin that is inherited by all human beings.

RedOne 77; Now this is heritical. By "heritical", I don't mean what is heresy to my denomination, simply standard Christianity. Also, if you go down this route, you can stop after Mary's mother.

If the mother of Mary’s mother was born of the seed of Adam, then she was under the penalty of death which her daughter would have inherited, and which Mary would have inherited, and as Mary the mother of Jesus would have been under the penalty of death and Her son was of her flesh, then his death could only pay the penalty for the sin that he inherited from his mother, who inherited that penalty from her mother, who inherited the penalty from her mother etc, etc, who inherited the penalty from Eve, who was divided from Adam and under the penalty of the body from which she was taken.

RedOne 77; But such is irrlevent as I reject this idea (only Mary was virgin) and original sin - Adam was not a real person (and Ezekiel 18). Since you don't know what I do believe, please refrain from conjecturing on what I do believe and presenting it as fact.

I know the beliefs of the Methodist body, who is a daughter that was spawned of the false doctrines of the “Universal church” of which body, you are but one small insignificant cell.

RedOne 77; Are you confusing universalist with Catholicism? I am not part of the Roman Catholic church. The Catholic church doesn't adhere to universal doctrine. They believe in eternal Hell, such is antithetical to Christian universalsim. If you are going to connect me to some evil or otherwise hated group or people, at least get the connection right.

You are a cell in the body that was spawned from the false doctrines of the universal church. 1st letter of John 4:1-3; “My dear friends, do not believe all who claim to have the spirit, (My words are spirit) but test them to find out if the spirit they have comes from God. For many false prophets have gone out everywhere. This is how you will be able to know if it is Gods spirit/word: anyone who acknowledges that Jesus came as a human being has the spirit who comes from God. But anyone who denies this about Jesus, does not have the spirit from God. The spirit that he has is from the enemy of the anointed one, the Anti-christ etc.”

2nd letter of John verses 7-10; “Many deceivers have gone out all over the world, people who do not acknowledge that Jesus came as a human being. Such a person is a deceiver and an enemy of Christ.” Where today, would we find a teaching that has been spread throughout the entire earth that refuses to acknowledge that Jesus came as a human being?
In the Methodist church, as with all the other daughter bodies that have broken away for the famous woman who sits on the seven hills of that Great City of Rome, that is where you will find the teaching of the anti-christ.

RedOne 77; No, listen to what I said. If a one (1) solar mass black hole (same mass as the sun) were to replace the sun, the orbits around the sun would not change. You can theoretically get a black hole with the mass of the sun.

I heard what you said, but our sun could never become a black hole, and a one solar mass black hole which is theoretically possible could never replace the sun in the centre of our solar system

RedOne 77; A black hole doesn't have to be massive, the only requirement is that it bends light around itself at the event horizon (it all has to do with the relationship between mass and radius).

But a black hole that is equivalent to the mass of 3 to 4 million suns, is capable of attracting and eventually swallowing any system of much lesser mass than itself.

RedOne 77; The point I'm making is that black holes don't destroy everything around it, and get far enough away (which isn't that much) and it behaves like any other object with the same mass gravity wise.

And what happens to the galaxies, which are a fraction of the mass of the black hole into which they are falling? Do you believe that there is any force great enough to repel them, and if so, why was that force not strong enough to stop the dwarf galaxies from falling into and merging with our Milky Way galaxy where they will eventually migrate to the centre, where they shall be devoured by the black hole that anchors us in space, when they will be torn apart, particle by particle and be condensed to that single point within the black hole, which is called the singularity?

RedOne 77; Yes, but the binary star has to be close enough. If it is not close enough than the binary system will continue as it always has (in orbit). Not all binary systems form accretion disks.

Fair dinkum? Who would have believed that?

RedOne 77; I'm not sure you understand that they are attracted to the overall mass of the galaxy, which is centered in the middle, and not to the black hole(s) because they are black hole(s), just the mass, with or without the black hole(s).

Show to me a galaxy that does not have in it’s centre, a black hole around which that galaxy revolves.

RedOne 77; While we are falling twords the super Virgo cluster, we will never reach there because of the repulsive force of dark energy is greater than the gravitational attraction.

Then you must be able to calculate the mass of the great attractor to which the Milky Way, Andromeda and millions of other galaxies are falling, and the force of the dark matter that you believe is able to repel them, am I correct?

RedOne 77; Only the galaxies or star clusters in our immediate vicinity are going to merge. For those out further dark energy will eventually make them go so fast away from us we will no longer see them

Correct! The galactic cluster to which we belong will merge and eventually be swallowed by the Great Attractor and be condensed to a single point that is call “Singularity,” other galaxies that are much further away are being drawn toward other Great Attractors in which the hidden or dark matter/energy that is condensed into a single point, is the source of the great gravitation pull that separates our galactic cluster from those clusters that are receding from us.

McBell · Jul 18, 2010

S-word said:
S-words response; Before you make a bigger fool of yourself than you already have, I think you should re-evaluate your defense of BalanceFx's statment that it was the parents of Doodlebug02, who created the body in which she, the mind/spirit has and continues to evolve on the information and experiences that are gathered through the senses of that body.

See, the problem here is that you are so desperate to give God credit, that you ignore basic biology.
But hey, feel free to make as big a fool of your self as you can in the name of your god.

I am sure he will be proud.

S-word said:
But the wife and I, who are both kicking the guts out of seventy, are off in the morning for a 4 to 6 week fishing trip to the gulf at the top end of Australia, the Van's all packed and the wife has already gone to bed ready for an early start and I'm just about to join her, so I'll see you all, and especially you, me old mate Mestemia, when and if we get back.

Have a good trip!

S-word · Jul 18, 2010

Mestemia said:
See, the problem here is that you are so desperate to give God credit, that you ignore basic biology.

Mestemia said:
But hey, feel free to make as big a fool of your self as you can in the name of your god.

It is you who make the fool of yourself in believing that I am somehow ignoring basic biology in stating that the only part that the parents of Doodlebug02 played in her creation was jumping into the cot together and even that act was driven by some inner desire.

I am sure he will be proud.

Well I certainly hope that you are correct, but as you have proven to have been seldomly correct, I have my doubts.

Have a good trip!

God willing, we will, it is now 6.20AM, and as soon as we finish breakfast, we're off, God willing, I hope you're still around when we return.

McBell · Jul 18, 2010

S-word said:
It is you who make the fool of yourself in believing that I am somehow ignoring basic biology in stating that the only part that the parents of Doodlebug02 played in her creation was jumping into the cot together and even that act was driven by some inner desire.

Well I certainly hope that you are correct, but as you have proven to have been seldomly correct, I have my doubts.

The level of your willful ignorance is staggering.

RedOne77 · Jul 18, 2010

S-word said:
Yep, each period of universal activity before darkness descended once more and there was an equal period of universal rest, was a generation of the universe.

So are you saying Genesis isn't talking about multiple universes, but the history of ours?

Dont matter much, all denomination such as the one that you belong to were spawned by the false doctrines of the universal church and are but the daughter that have come out of her body of belief, which refuses to acknowledge that Jesus came as a human being, but instead, came as an immortal and eternal god who entered the womb of some imaginary virgin , where his father created for him a human like body which was not an extension of Adam and therefore free of the penalty of his sin that is inherited by all human beings.

It is held that Jesus was both fully human and fully divine from the dyophysite theology in Christology. I find it exceptionally hard to equate protestant with catholic when talking about beliefs within Christianity as millions have died fighting with, and purging, each other. In fact, the animosity between the two had a hand in getting the colony Massachusetts to participate in the American revolution. Adam is not a real person, and if you read Ezekiel 18 you would know that it didn't matter if Jesus was born from the decedents of 'Adam' if he was a real person to begin with (as "sin" isn't inherited). All that really mattered was that Jesus concured sin on humanities behalf.

If the mother of Marys mother was born of the seed of Adam, then she was under the penalty of death which her daughter would have inherited, and which Mary would have inherited, and as Mary the mother of Jesus would have been under the penalty of death and Her son was of her flesh, then his death could only pay the penalty for the sin that he inherited from his mother, who inherited that penalty from her mother, who inherited the penalty from her mother etc, etc, who inherited the penalty from Eve, who was divided from Adam and under the penalty of the body from which she was taken.

Sin is not inherited. Original sin is incorrect as most understand it; it should be understood as the state of humanity, not an actual "sin" against God that needs to be forgiven. The basic story of Jesus is that He was born into a world ruled by sin, went through the same temptations as everybody else, and prevailed thus defeating sin/death on our behalf.

I know the beliefs of the Methodist body, who is a daughter that was spawned of the false doctrines of the Universal church of which body, you are but one small insignificant cell.

The Methodist church is one of the most diverse. We have very conservative people to very liberal (both politically and theologically), YEC to TE to people who do not believe in heaven. So you can't accurately predict what people believe based on the fact that they are Methodist. Nor can you count on Catholic doctrine to help you understand Methodist doctrine, there is a reason why they are separate denominations.

I heard what you said, but our sun could never become a black hole, and a one solar mass black hole which is theoretically possible could never replace the sun in the centre of our solar system

I'm not saying that is what is going to happen or could happen. Just demonstrating some of the properties of black holes that appear to be elusive to you.

But a black hole that is equivalent to the mass of 3 to 4 million suns, is capable of attracting and eventually swallowing any system of much lesser mass than itself.

It all depends on how far away the object is. If the object is far enough away it wouldn't get sucked in.

And what happens to the galaxies, which are a fraction of the mass of the black hole into which they are falling? Do you believe that there is any force great enough to repel them, and if so, why was that force not strong enough to stop the dwarf galaxies from falling into and merging with our Milky Way galaxy where they will eventually migrate to the centre, where they shall be devoured by the black hole that anchors us in space, when they will be torn apart, particle by particle and be condensed to that single point within the black hole, which is called the singularity?

The expansion of the universe. If the objects are too far away, even though they are attracted and 'falling' towards each other, too much space is expanding in-between and they drift apart. This is the fate of the Milky Way and the 'Great Attractor'. A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Show to me a galaxy that does not have in its centre, a black hole around which that galaxy revolves.[/quote]

Do you understand what I'm saying?

Then you must be able to calculate the mass of the great attractor to which the Milky Way, Andromeda and millions of other galaxies are falling, and the force of the dark matter that you believe is able to repel them, am I correct?

Just calculate the red/blue shift. As it turns out, it is red-shifted like everything else nearly 50Mpc out.

Correct! The galactic cluster to which we belong will merge and eventually be swallowed by the Great Attractor and be condensed to a single point that is call Singularity, other galaxies are being drawn toward other Great Attractors in which the hidden or dark matter/energy that is condensed into a single point, is the source of the great gravitation pull that separates our galactic cluster from those clusters that are receding from us.

Dark matter and dark energy are two separate things. Dark energy expands the metric space of the universe. So anything a few Mpc out is being carried away from us and we will never collide with them, save a possible big crunch.

Sententia · Jul 19, 2010

S-word said:
Her mother and father may have been driven by an inner desire to jump into the cot and have sex, but it was not they who created the egg in her mother's body, nor did they create the semen in the body of her father, which semen, fertilised that egg.

... I think you should re-evaluate your belief that it was her parents who created her body.

This is completely unrelated to this thread but you are stating your beliefs as facts. :facepalm:

Thats not how science is done. :no: When you get done stating your religilous babble you think its the best post ever. Then wow and you ask me to re-evaluate my belief that babies are not created from mom and dad. Why? :help:

PolyHedral · Jul 19, 2010

it was not they who created the egg in her mother's body

It's not even stating opinions as facts. This is just plain wrong. The egg was created by the mother's body. That's what cell division is.

Earth is much younger than previously thought

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