McBell
mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
Feel free to justify your lies however you like.
Fact is that there is such a thing as a lie of omission.
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When is it ok to lie?
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Fact is that there is such a thing as a lie of omission.
Cypress
Dragon Mom
I think it's ok to lie when otherwise you would hurt someone seriously.
For instance, if a friend of mine was beeing in hospital for chemo theraphy and I was to visit her, upon her question "How do I look like?" I sure would say "Very fine!" - even if she was looking like death-in-person.
There are situations in life were someone with a decent sensitivity to the feelings of others just cannot say the truth.
For instance, if a friend of mine was beeing in hospital for chemo theraphy and I was to visit her, upon her question "How do I look like?" I sure would say "Very fine!" - even if she was looking like death-in-person.
There are situations in life were someone with a decent sensitivity to the feelings of others just cannot say the truth.
idea
Question Everything
Danmac
Well-Known Member
Nathan the prophet lied to get David to confess
2nd Samuel 12:1
Jeremiah lied as he was instructed to by King Zedekiah
Jeremiah 38:24 to 27
In the case of Samuel's anointing of David.
1st Samuel 16:1-2
Deception that is intended to bring about a greater good is never condemned. Undercover police lie all the time and it is permissible by law.
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Cypress
Dragon Mom
But who decides what is the greater good?
Jollybear
Hey
Danmac
Wait, hold on their, give the actual quote Nathan said that was a lie?
Actually Jeremiah was NOT lying. Look at Jeremiah 37:15-20 says that Jeremiah was beaten IN THE HOUSE of JONATHAN and then was brought before King Zedekiah whom he PETITIONED TO NOT BE SENT BACK TO JONATHAN’S house or else he would die. Then as you flip over to Jeremiah 38:24-27 the passage you gave, Zedekiah says to Jeremiah that if the officials question him about their conversation, to tell them that Jeremiah petitioned to not be sent back to Jonathan’s house (which WAS the TRUTH, Jeremiah DID petition that of the king in 37:15-20). So Jeremiah DID tell the officials the truth, he just did not tell them THE OTHER part of the conversation, so he did not LIE. It does not say they asked “is that EVERYTHING you and the king talked about Jeremiah?” and Jeremiah says a lie “yes”. None of that is said, or recorded. So given what we have, Jeremiah DID NOT LIE.
Plus on top of it, I was asking you for a scripture that INSTRUCTS US TO LIE, even if this was an example of Jeremiah lying (which it’s not) STILL that is him lying, that is not God CONDONING a lie let alone INSTRUCTING us to lie.
You see the difference their?
Again, where did Samuel actually lie? What was the LIE? Samuel did not TELL Saul he was going to anoint another king, and he did not tell Saul he was NOT going to anoint another king, all he did was take a “heifer” to sacrifice to the Lord and INVITE Jesse and his family to that sacrifice. The scripture says that Samuel DID obey the Lord and TOOK a heifer to make a sacrifice to the Lord and he did invite the house of Jesse. That was the TRUTH, he did that. Where was the lie? Yes he was using his brain, being discrete about the issue, but discretion is NOT dishonesty and it’s NOT lying. He had respect for his OWN life, but not at the expense of lying, which he did not tell a lie. And God was not TELLING him to lie. Actually if God was telling him to lie, that would contradict the New Testament in Hebrews 6:18 which say it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to LIE. God told him to take a heifer and sacrifice it and invite the house of Jesse to that sacrifice, and he did that. God was not telling him to lie, God did NOT tell him to say he was NOT going to anoint another king, and God did not tell him to DENY it if he was asked. So as you can see, God was telling him to be discrete but to not lie.
I like how Jesus put it; he said it quite well in the words of Mathew 10:16 which are “be SHREWD as snakes and innocent as doves.” Shrewd does not mean to be a liar or to be dishonest, it means to use your darn head, be level headed, have a good head on your shoulders, respect your life, be CAREFUL, be wise. Be innocent as a dove means to BE HONEST, DON’T LIE.
Yes, God does condemn it. Give me a scripture that actually clearly APROVES of lying? I bet you won’t find ONE. Because there is NONE.
Undercover police are not God and the law that permits those police to lie is NOT God’s law.
Wait, hold on their, give the actual quote Nathan said that was a lie?
Actually Jeremiah was NOT lying. Look at Jeremiah 37:15-20 says that Jeremiah was beaten IN THE HOUSE of JONATHAN and then was brought before King Zedekiah whom he PETITIONED TO NOT BE SENT BACK TO JONATHAN’S house or else he would die. Then as you flip over to Jeremiah 38:24-27 the passage you gave, Zedekiah says to Jeremiah that if the officials question him about their conversation, to tell them that Jeremiah petitioned to not be sent back to Jonathan’s house (which WAS the TRUTH, Jeremiah DID petition that of the king in 37:15-20). So Jeremiah DID tell the officials the truth, he just did not tell them THE OTHER part of the conversation, so he did not LIE. It does not say they asked “is that EVERYTHING you and the king talked about Jeremiah?” and Jeremiah says a lie “yes”. None of that is said, or recorded. So given what we have, Jeremiah DID NOT LIE.
Plus on top of it, I was asking you for a scripture that INSTRUCTS US TO LIE, even if this was an example of Jeremiah lying (which it’s not) STILL that is him lying, that is not God CONDONING a lie let alone INSTRUCTING us to lie.
You see the difference their?
Again, where did Samuel actually lie? What was the LIE? Samuel did not TELL Saul he was going to anoint another king, and he did not tell Saul he was NOT going to anoint another king, all he did was take a “heifer” to sacrifice to the Lord and INVITE Jesse and his family to that sacrifice. The scripture says that Samuel DID obey the Lord and TOOK a heifer to make a sacrifice to the Lord and he did invite the house of Jesse. That was the TRUTH, he did that. Where was the lie? Yes he was using his brain, being discrete about the issue, but discretion is NOT dishonesty and it’s NOT lying. He had respect for his OWN life, but not at the expense of lying, which he did not tell a lie. And God was not TELLING him to lie. Actually if God was telling him to lie, that would contradict the New Testament in Hebrews 6:18 which say it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to LIE. God told him to take a heifer and sacrifice it and invite the house of Jesse to that sacrifice, and he did that. God was not telling him to lie, God did NOT tell him to say he was NOT going to anoint another king, and God did not tell him to DENY it if he was asked. So as you can see, God was telling him to be discrete but to not lie.
I like how Jesus put it; he said it quite well in the words of Mathew 10:16 which are “be SHREWD as snakes and innocent as doves.” Shrewd does not mean to be a liar or to be dishonest, it means to use your darn head, be level headed, have a good head on your shoulders, respect your life, be CAREFUL, be wise. Be innocent as a dove means to BE HONEST, DON’T LIE.
Yes, God does condemn it. Give me a scripture that actually clearly APROVES of lying? I bet you won’t find ONE. Because there is NONE.
Undercover police are not God and the law that permits those police to lie is NOT God’s law.
Danmac
Well-Known Member
Jolly I am not suggesting that God instructs people to lie. I was simply saying that deception is sometimes used with good motives. My point is that God is more concerned with motive then He is the act itself.
Danmac
Well-Known Member
There are times when a court must decide. Is it unlawful to shoot another human being? That question cannot be answered until you determine the circumstances.
Jollybear
Hey
Danmac
What did you mean when you said this and I quote you
“are instances in the Bible where men were instructed to "deceive"?
Oh, I don’t doubt that people can deceive or lie with good motives, absolutely. I have no doubt about that whatsoever. I even understand WHY they would lie in certain painful situations. But never the less, the bible does not justify lying EVEN with a GOOD motive behind it.
What about the saying that says “the road to hell is paved with good intentions”?
Yes, he is concerned with the motive, but he is ALSO concerned with the ACT. He is concerned with BOTH.
What did you mean when you said this and I quote you
“are instances in the Bible where men were instructed to "deceive"?
Oh, I don’t doubt that people can deceive or lie with good motives, absolutely. I have no doubt about that whatsoever. I even understand WHY they would lie in certain painful situations. But never the less, the bible does not justify lying EVEN with a GOOD motive behind it.
What about the saying that says “the road to hell is paved with good intentions”?
Yes, he is concerned with the motive, but he is ALSO concerned with the ACT. He is concerned with BOTH.
Jollybear
Hey
Look at Daniel in the Old Testament, he refused to bow to the kings statue at the expense of being burned alive in a furnace. But what I hear you saying is if Daniel bowed to the statue with the motive of saving his life, but the bow was a LIE, because he was not going to bow to it in his heart, THAT would be ok? But, according to the story, that would NOT have been ok.
Danmac
Well-Known Member
I pointed out those instances.
Why then did God allow Jewish priests to work on the Sabbath? Why was it OK for David's men to eat shew bread which was unlawful for them to eat?
Jollybear
Hey
Danmac
No, you pointed out instances where you THOUGHT the person in the story lied (which they did not and I pointed out why I interpret it that way). And even if they did lie (which they did not) still that does not mean God INSTRUCTED them to lie. It would just mean that it’s recorded in the story.
Because the Sabbath was not given to man for the express purpose to not MOVE all day long, it was given to worship God on that day and celebrate him. Thus the priests had to do the work in the temple or tabernacle area for that purpose (sacrifices ect).
Good question: I’ll answer that by saying this: remember the scripture in Hebrews that says “come boldly to the throne of grace” and remember the one that says that when Jesus died the curtain in the temple was torn in two? Well anyway, I am sure you are probably aware of those and there meaning, also if I may offer another to illustrate before I lay my point. Look at the book of Esther, the law said that if anyone came into the kings court, that they would have to die UNLESS the king extended his scepter……..And what does Esther do, she comes BOLDLY to the throne room. What does David do? He comes BOLDLY to God in need. God EXTENDS his scepter of grace sort of speak.
Also if I may add, true David was not a priest, but in a spiritual sense he WAS (Exodus 19:6)
Also I would like to add one more thing, the priest whom David came to for the bread asked him if he and his men have kept themselves pure. David said yes, so the priest said it was ok to eat the bread. So it was not like David was totally disrespecting all regulations regarding approaching God here. Likewise the priest was not disrespecting, and that is why he asked David this question.
That’s my answer.
But, regardless of what my answer is on this issue, this issue has nothing to do with the LYING issue. You’re comparing apples and oranges.
Rakhel
You’re a Jew and you don’t know this?
Leviticus 19:11 says “do not steal, do not lie, do not deceive one another.”
There you have it, DO NOT LIE. Also gossiping is not wrong because it’s TRUE, it’s wrong because it does not HELP the other person, it’s cowering. Have the guts to tell the other person your problem with them instead of sucker stabbing them behind their back.
No, you pointed out instances where you THOUGHT the person in the story lied (which they did not and I pointed out why I interpret it that way). And even if they did lie (which they did not) still that does not mean God INSTRUCTED them to lie. It would just mean that it’s recorded in the story.
Because the Sabbath was not given to man for the express purpose to not MOVE all day long, it was given to worship God on that day and celebrate him. Thus the priests had to do the work in the temple or tabernacle area for that purpose (sacrifices ect).
Good question: I’ll answer that by saying this: remember the scripture in Hebrews that says “come boldly to the throne of grace” and remember the one that says that when Jesus died the curtain in the temple was torn in two? Well anyway, I am sure you are probably aware of those and there meaning, also if I may offer another to illustrate before I lay my point. Look at the book of Esther, the law said that if anyone came into the kings court, that they would have to die UNLESS the king extended his scepter……..And what does Esther do, she comes BOLDLY to the throne room. What does David do? He comes BOLDLY to God in need. God EXTENDS his scepter of grace sort of speak.
Also if I may add, true David was not a priest, but in a spiritual sense he WAS (Exodus 19:6)
Also I would like to add one more thing, the priest whom David came to for the bread asked him if he and his men have kept themselves pure. David said yes, so the priest said it was ok to eat the bread. So it was not like David was totally disrespecting all regulations regarding approaching God here. Likewise the priest was not disrespecting, and that is why he asked David this question.
That’s my answer.
But, regardless of what my answer is on this issue, this issue has nothing to do with the LYING issue. You’re comparing apples and oranges.
Rakhel
You’re a Jew and you don’t know this?
Leviticus 19:11 says “do not steal, do not lie, do not deceive one another.”
There you have it, DO NOT LIE. Also gossiping is not wrong because it’s TRUE, it’s wrong because it does not HELP the other person, it’s cowering. Have the guts to tell the other person your problem with them instead of sucker stabbing them behind their back.
Amill
Apikoros
I think it's ok to lie when I examine the consequences of that potential lie and determine that the positives outweigh the negatives. I don't think there's a specific line of when it becomes ok to lie, I think it's pretty gray. I mean if someone's life was at stake and all I had to do was lie, I sure hope I would.
Rakhel
Well-Known Member
I have to remind my self that Christian scriptures are slightly off from Hebrew scriptures
Lev 19:17. And you shall not wrong, one man his fellow Jew, and you shall fear your God, for I am the Lord, your God.
This is from my book.
It a reference to verse 14
14. And when you make a sale to your fellow Jew or make a purchase from the hand of your fellow Jew, you shall not wrong one another.
IN other words don't cheat them.
Now that may include not lying but is not specific. It could mean not to sell them a lemon if it is indeed an orange or selling something for more than its worth. However it is not specific.
Lev 19:17. And you shall not wrong, one man his fellow Jew, and you shall fear your God, for I am the Lord, your God.
This is from my book.
It a reference to verse 14
14. And when you make a sale to your fellow Jew or make a purchase from the hand of your fellow Jew, you shall not wrong one another.
IN other words don't cheat them.
Now that may include not lying but is not specific. It could mean not to sell them a lemon if it is indeed an orange or selling something for more than its worth. However it is not specific.
Jollybear
Hey
Amill
Why do you consider someone’s life more important than telling the truth?
Just think for a moment, if you lie to save someone’s life, you’re sacrificing your SOUL for them, which is NOT right. If however you sacrifice your LIFE for their life, THAT IS RIGHT.
Also here is more food for thought, if you have to lie to save someone’s life from a predator, what does that tell you about that predator? It tells you they are not trustworthy in the first place, which means even if you do tell the truth, that predator may STILL kill you and them both. So why sell out to some monster like that?
Why do you consider someone’s life more important than telling the truth?
Just think for a moment, if you lie to save someone’s life, you’re sacrificing your SOUL for them, which is NOT right. If however you sacrifice your LIFE for their life, THAT IS RIGHT.
Also here is more food for thought, if you have to lie to save someone’s life from a predator, what does that tell you about that predator? It tells you they are not trustworthy in the first place, which means even if you do tell the truth, that predator may STILL kill you and them both. So why sell out to some monster like that?
Jollybear
Hey
Rakhel
Ok, let’s just cut strait to the Hebrew then.
The word “lie” in my translation, in the Hebrew it is “shaqar” and it means “to do or deal falsely, be false, trick, cheat, lie”
Basically, it means LIE. Do not LIE.
Also out of curiosity, what does your translation say for Exodus 20:16 that says “do not give false testimony against your neighbor”?
Also what does your translation say about proverbs 12:22 that says “the Lord detests LYING LIPS, but he delights in men who are truthful”?
Also what does your translation say for proverbs 6:16-19 that says God HATES a lying tongue and a false witness who pours out lies?
Also Psalm 15:2 that says speak the truth from his heart, this one will be on God's holy hill.
Ok, let’s just cut strait to the Hebrew then.
The word “lie” in my translation, in the Hebrew it is “shaqar” and it means “to do or deal falsely, be false, trick, cheat, lie”
Basically, it means LIE. Do not LIE.
Also out of curiosity, what does your translation say for Exodus 20:16 that says “do not give false testimony against your neighbor”?
Also what does your translation say about proverbs 12:22 that says “the Lord detests LYING LIPS, but he delights in men who are truthful”?
Also what does your translation say for proverbs 6:16-19 that says God HATES a lying tongue and a false witness who pours out lies?
Also Psalm 15:2 that says speak the truth from his heart, this one will be on God's holy hill.
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Rakhel
Well-Known Member
Exodus 20:16. They said to Moses, "You speak with us, and we will hear, but let God not speak with us lest we die."
The rest match but that does not make lying against the law. It is just saying what is not liked.
a proverb, by definition, is just a saying. It is not law.To say so would be like saying "Money makes the world go round"
The rest match but that does not make lying against the law. It is just saying what is not liked.
a proverb, by definition, is just a saying. It is not law.To say so would be like saying "Money makes the world go round"