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The Wall - dismantle or construct? How to make either happen?

dust1n

Zindīq
Israel's separation barrier makes it difficult for Palestinians living in the West Bank to obtain proper health care, according to a new report from the United Nations.

The report, prepared by the Office of the Co-ordinator for Humanitarian Affairs, found that thousands of Palestinians have limited access to East Jerusalem hospitals because of the barrier.

Ambulances are routinely delayed at checkpoints, and Palestinian vehicles are not allowed to pass through barrier checkpoints, forcing sick or elderly patients to walk.

Some Palestinians living in the West Bank cannot obtain permits to receive medical care in East Jerusalem - or they receive permits for shorter durations of time than the treatment requires.

"Males aged between 15 and 30 often have their requests for permits turned down on the grounds of security," the UN wrote.

"In many cases, it is also difficult for parents of sick children or for family members to obtain permits to escort patients to Jerusalem."

Israel's civil administration told Al Jazeera that 84 per cent of Palestinians who apply are granted permits to access hospitals or other medical facilities.

Verdict anniversary

Friday is the sixth anniversary of an International Court of Justice ruling that declared the security barrier illegal. The court called on Israel to dismantle the barrier and to compensate Palestinians affected by its construction.

Israel ignored the ruling, and construction continues: 61 per cent of the 707km barrier has now been built, according to the United Nations.








The ultimate Israeli wall debate thread.
 

KatNotKathy

Well-Known Member
But we need to keep the Palestinians in these little bantustans where we restrict basic supplies like paper and writing materials or building materials so they can't rebuild whatever we bomb.

The wall is just there to keep us safe. Nevermind the massively disproportionate amount of deaths, including civilian deaths. They have rockets! Our white phosphorous and cluster bombs have got nothing on that!
 

KatNotKathy

Well-Known Member
Seriously, if Israel could just get over this "treat Palestinians like animals" thing, they could be this massive beacon of hope for the region. Israel has so much going for it, but the extremists really like to screw things up.
 

Cypress

Dragon Mom
Palestinians were too long ignored by the Israelis.
Some quotes from Golda Meir:
How can we return the held territories? There is nobody to return them to.
There were no such thing as Palestinians. When was there an independent Palestinian people with a Palestinian state? It was either southern Syria before the First World War, and then it was a Palestine including Jordan. It was not as though there was a Palestinian people in Palestine considering itself as a Palestinian people and we came and threw them out and took their country away from them. They did not exist.
source

This wall will bring nothing, I think.
In Gaza there are tunnels used for smuggling, I believe the Palestinians will find a way to by-pass that wall too.
Aside from this, a wall is useless against rocket attacks.
 

dmgdnooc

Active Member
It is not good that the Israelis feel that their security is so threatened that they build a wall around themselves.
Perhaps Palestinians could access Jordanian or Egyptian medical facilities more easily, but I doubt it.
 
How long is the US security fence on the Mexican border? That's still being built right?
And the Mexicans don't even fire rockets at US targets.

 

kai

ragamuffin
A Peaceful solution will see the wall gone.



The value of the fence in saving lives is evident from the data: In 2002, the year before construction started, 457 Israelis were murdered; in 2009, 8 Israelis were killed.

Israel's Security Fence
 

kai

ragamuffin
Indeed i mean If the Egyptians wanted the same amount of criticism they should have let the Israelis build it for them.

I suppose its that age old question Which came first the wall or the suicide bomber? says it all really
 

Bismillah

Submit
I suppose its that age old question Which came first the wall or the suicide bomber? says it all really

lol...the West Bank has been violating human rights, under Israel's thumb, to purge suicide bombers under their rule.
 

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
Seriously, if Israel could just get over this "treat Palestinians like animals" thing, they could be this massive beacon of hope for the region. Israel has so much going for it, but the extremists really like to screw things up.

On the contrary. If the Palestinians could get over this "treat Israelis like animals" thing (i.e. referring to them as pigs and apes), they could become a viable and productive state. Israeli walls don't cause Palestinian terrorism. Palestinian terrorism causes Israeli walls. And as less violence came out of the West Bank, checkpoints and barriers were dismantled. But every once in a while, something happens to remind Israeli that the checkpoints that are still up are necessary.

Like in 2005, when Wafa al-Biss strapped herself to 22 pounds of explosives to blow up a crowded Israeli hospital that treats a great deal of sick and/or injured Palestinians... including herself. How's that for gratitude? I'm just glad she got stopped at the Erez crossing.

And then there's the guy who tried to get through the checkpoint with a knife and a couple of explosives. I wonder what he planned to do with them? Thankfully, he was stopped at one of the West Bank checkpoints. That one happened this week.


Want to know how to tear down the Israeli barrier wall? Have the Palestinian Authority formally recognize Israel's existence as a sovereign nation and abolish any charter or other document that proclaims an intent to destroy or annihilate Israel, "The Zionist Entity".

Israel could be the best friend the Palestinians could ever want, if only the Palestinians would accept them as neighbors.
 

Bismillah

Submit
Have the Palestinian Authority formally recognize Israel's existence
You first??

After all it's easy to demand legitimacy when illegally stealing the lands of Palestinians and then enveloping said land with a wall that also succeeds in running separating remaining Palestinians from each other.
 
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Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
You first??
No. Israel accepted UN partition. The Palestinians didn't. Israel wanted, and clearly stated in its declaration of establishment, to live peacefully side by side with its Arab neighbors and inhabitants.... despite the Arab violence towards Jews in the region until that point. And then the war in 47 happened. The Palestinians weren't part of a sovereign nation before 1947, and they haven't been one since. And with all of the effort Israel has put forth to make peace... all of the compromise they've been willing to make... all the land they've been willing to give up... it was never enough for Fatah. The ball is in their court. They are the ones who have weaseled out of every agreement ever made. One good example is the intifada that started shortly after Oslo accords. Another is the fact that Abbas demanded a settlement freeze as a precondition for sitting down for peace talks... Netanyahu put the freeze into effect... and Abbas didn't come to sit at the table until the freeze was about to expire, saying "if you don't extend the freeze, I'm going to leave".

It's all about how they can manipulate Israel into giving and offering. (If you want me to dig up a quote from Arafat saying basically that, I will.) Land for peace. What a disgusting and horrible concept. And the worst part is, Israel gave land, and has yet to receive peace.

The question can't be "What does Israel need to do for Palestinians to stop killing Israelis?"

The question needs to be "When are the Palestinians going to start caring about the lives of their own people and abandon their desire to eliminate "The Zionist Entity"?
 

Bismillah

Submit
The Oslo Accords were a sham.

Regardless, none of your post applies to the modern aspect of the conflict.

Abass has given up the right of return and has acknowledged the right of Jewish people to Israli lands.

Yet, Israel refuses to halt its settlement building. Settling on land that isn't theirs and deferring them to some ambiguous "final negotiation status".

What a scam! To refer to these issues at the end merely ignores the problem and when finally confronted with it, Israeli leaders are quite adamant on leaving "certain" settlements. As well as the fact that East Jerusalem is "off the table".

The ball is in the Israeli court to negotiate with an administration that has committed itself to Israel's security much more adamantly and successfully then any previous regime.

Until Israel stops expanding illegal settlements, withdraws from said settlements, and finally puts the status of Jerusalem up for discussion their motives for peace are disingenuous at best.
 

kai

ragamuffin
The Oslo Accords were a sham.

Regardless, none of your post applies to the modern aspect of the conflict.

Abass has given up the right of return and has acknowledged the right of Jewish people to Israli lands.

Yet, Israel refuses to halt its settlement building. Settling on land that isn't theirs and deferring them to some ambiguous "final negotiation status".

What a scam! To refer to these issues at the end merely ignores the problem and when finally confronted with it, Israeli leaders are quite adamant on leaving "certain" settlements. As well as the fact that East Jerusalem is "off the table".

The ball is in the Israeli court to negotiate with an administration that has committed itself to Israel's security much more adamantly and successfully then any previous regime.

Until Israel stops expanding illegal settlements, withdraws from said settlements, and finally puts the status of Jerusalem up for discussion their motives for peace are disingenuous at best.



Has Abbas changed his mind since November then?


He said that since 1988 the Palestinians haven’t relinquished any of their main demands. He also reached out to the Israeli people, declaring: “Making peace is more important than everything else.”

In his speech, Abbas pledged to continue in Arafat’s footsteps until the Palestinians achieve an independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital, the refugees return to their homes and lands and all prisoners are released from Israeli jail.



Abbas vows to walk in Arafat
 

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
The Oslo Accords were a sham.
They certainly were. Though I have a feeling we both feel that way for different reasons. Moving on.

Abass has given up the right of return and has acknowledged the right of Jewish people to Israli lands.

Could you post a link to an article or reference a document in which this fact is established? This is the first time I'm hearing of this.

Yet, Israel refuses to halt its settlement building. Settling on land that isn't theirs and deferring them to some ambiguous "final negotiation status".
It halted its settlement building for 10 months, and Abbas wouldn't talk for 8 of those months. Someone is stalling... and it's not Israel.

Because there isn't a sovereign state called Palestine, the land you speak of is considered "disputed territory". A no man's land. What one may hope will eventually become part of a sovereign Palestine.

Land for peace has never worked. Peace first. Then negotiate regarding borders and land swaps.

The ball is in the Israeli court to negotiate with an administration that has committed itself to Israel's security much more adamantly and successfully then any previous regime.
Israel has been negotiating for 60+ years. It's time for the Palestinians to step up. Let them make gestures of peace. Give Israelis a reason to trust them. As long as they're stuck in "attack the occupier" mode, they're stuck in a position of always being potentially hostile to Israel. Let them show a willingness to be Israel's neighbor instead of Israel's enemy. And let this be reflected in the PLO covenant.

Until Israel stops expanding illegal settlements, withdraws from said settlements, and finally puts the status of Jerusalem up for discussion their motives for peace are disingenuous at best.

When there were no settlements between 1949 and 1967 because Jews were forbidden to live in the West Bank... the Palestinians weren't interested in peace. And oddly enough, while the settlements were expanding from 1992 till 1996, the Palestinians signed the Oslo accords and the Oslo 2 agreement. They obviously weren't interested in peace yet, but at least they pretended to be.

The Palestinians are in no position whatsoever to say "Stop building or we won't talk peace". Had they made peace at any point in the last 60 years, there wouldn't even BE any settlements on Palestinian land.


Just look at Egypt. They signed a peace treaty with Israel in 1977... and guess what? Israeli settlements in Sinai were gone shortly thereafter.


Israel will be Palestine's greatest friend in the world... once the Palestinians are no longer dedicated to the eradication of the Zionist Entity.
 

kai

ragamuffin
chief Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat said


"We don't need negotiations anymore," Erekat said, who repeatedly reminds parties involved that the process has been going on for 17 years since the interim Oslo accords of 1993.

"Now it's time for decisions and the decisions are required from leaders," he said. The terms of reference for an eventual peace accord should be set by the Quartet of powers engaged in the process - the United States, the European Union, Russia and the United Nations, Erekat added.



Israel to Palestinians: How can we make peace if you won't talk to us? - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News


Interesting Idea that the "Quartet should set the terms??????
 
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