scripture to condemn homosexuality

Aqualung · Aug 5, 2005

michel said:
I don't particularly have any other point to make other that what you personally believe doesn't have to be 'more correct' that any one else's interpretation.

Well, that's actually the point I was trying to make. That it was just my personal beleif, so to argue about that particular point would be unproductive, so people should bring up other points, instead. I'm not very good at making my own things to argue, but I can say what I can't argue very well, and hope someone else will bring something else up to keep the discussion going.

michel · Aug 5, 2005

Aqualung said:
Well, that's actually the point I was trying to make. That it was just my personal beleif, so to argue about that particular point would be unproductive, so people should bring up other points, instead. I'm not very good at making my own things to argue, but I can say what I can't argue very well, and hope someone else will bring something else up to keep the discussion going.

Sorry, I obviously misunderstood......

Mike182 · Aug 5, 2005

Aqualung said:
Well, this is all I can say, and this comes from the LDS footnoted version of the King James Version, which is why I maintain that the footnotes are correct.
Fornicators comes from the Greed which means "sexually immoral persons" or "male prostitutes."
Effeminite comes from the Greek meaning "cataminte" (but that's not really important to the debate, right?)
Abusers of themselves with mankind comes from the greek meaning "male homosexual."
I maintain that these things are the correct ways of looking at them.

king james, as in the same king james that changed the word "poisoner" to "withch" in "thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live"?

oh yes, that kings james, he was a completely unbaised and non judgemental person

i believe that the original manuscripts are truth - king james was not the original, so i dont believe his writtings, although some of the psalms are well written

i do respect your oppinoin aqualung, you seem a very open minded person, and are just arguing your belief, i dont think i will ever convince you that your translations are wrong, and i dont think i will ever be convinced my translations are wrong. im truely glad weve all managed to keep this discussion civil thoug, i applaud you all :clap

C_P

Quiddity · Aug 6, 2005

Jacose, I'd be interested in finding out the question Scott asked you.

~Victor

Aqualung · Aug 6, 2005

corrupt_preist said:
king james, as in the same king james that changed the word "poisoner" to "withch" in "thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live"?

oh yes, that kings james, he was a completely unbaised and non judgemental person

i believe that the original manuscripts are truth - king james was not the original, so i dont believe his writtings, although some of the psalms are well written

Well, the point wasn't that it was the KJV, but that it had the LDS foot notes. But I guess you'll disagree with the divinity of those, too, eh?

i do respect your oppinoin aqualung, you seem a very open minded person, and are just arguing your belief, i dont think i will ever convince you that your translations are wrong, and i dont think i will ever be convinced my translations are wrong. im truely glad weve all managed to keep this discussion civil thoug, i applaud you all :clap

C_P

Thanks

Mike182 · Aug 6, 2005

Aqualung said:
Well, the point wasn't that it was the KJV, but that it had the LDS foot notes. But I guess you'll disagree with the divinity of those, too, eh?

well now, you know me already

CMIYC · Aug 7, 2005

Ok. Ill gives this another go. I can see CORRUPT PRIEST trying to separate sin from sinner, it wont work. For a sin to manifest there must be a sinner. I think the bible is quite clear on sin. But, what the bible does say, sin can be forgiven if the sinner is willing to mend his/her way. If you are aware of your sin and you keep sinning then, NO! There is no salvation. For Christians that do not judge sin actually encourages sin, so they automatically become devils advocate, and for them there is no salvation either.

michel · Aug 7, 2005

CMIYC said:
Ok. Ill gives this another go. I can see CORRUPT PRIEST trying to separate sin from sinner, it wont work. For a sin to manifest there must be a sinner. I think the bible is quite clear on sin. But, what the bible does say, sin can be forgiven if the sinner is willing to mend his/her way. If you are aware of your sin and you keep sinning then, NO! There is no salvation. For Christians that do not judge sin actually encourages sin, so they automatically become devils advocate, and for them there is no salvation either.

Sorry I think you are a) being Judgemental which is one of the basic 'No-No's' of Christianity,
and totally unloving about a person who would be miserable if he could not follow his wishes. I honestly cannot see God being as hard as you! And maybe you could think seriusly about stopping to bash on particular person for his way of life even though you have had it explained so many posts ago.:149:

CMIYC · Aug 7, 2005

michel said:
Sorry I think you are a) being Judgemental which is one of the basic 'No-No's' of Christianity,
and totally unloving about a person who would be miserable if he could not follow his wishes. I honestly cannot see God being as hard as you! And maybe you could think seriusly about stopping to bash on particular person for his way of life even though you have had it explained so many posts ago.:149:

So, you are saying, me opposing homosexuality is more of a sin then you condoning homosexuality? Nope, you are definitely wrong there Sir. By you siding with the sin you are encouraging sin this would make you more of a sinner then me any day!

cheers

michel · Aug 7, 2005

CMIYC said:
So, you are saying, me opposing homosexuality is more of a sin then you condoning homosexuality? Nope, you are definitely wrong there Sir. By you siding with the sin you are encouraging sin this would make you more of a sinner then me any day!

cheers

I am not encouraging sin; I am merely trying to 'Love my Brother and be understanding and sympathetic to a fellow human being who finds himself in distress' - whatever the reasons; if, when we both die, you are deemed to have sinned less than I, in this issue, then I am prepared to take the punishment.

I would rather that than Gay-bashing during my life. Sorry if that doesn't suit your purposes.

CMIYC · Aug 7, 2005

michel said:
I am not encouraging sin; I am merely trying to 'Love my Brother and be understanding and sympathetic to a fellow human being who finds himself in distress' - whatever the reasons; if, when we both die, you are deemed to have sinned less than I, in this issue, then I am prepared to take the punishment.

I would rather that than Gay-bashing during my life. Sorry if that doesn't suit your purposes.

I dont know if opposing is gay bashing. I think if you want to be worthy of your beliefs then discouraging would be a greater help. Gees man! I dont know where you get god being all that lovable of sinners. God is just not lovable. I would like to direct you to some passages on what god thinks about sin.

2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB) From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces.

(1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV) And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and' fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter. And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us?

(Isaiah 14:21 NAB Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants.

(Hosea 9:11-16 NLT) The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children."

(Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT) "Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told."

michel · Aug 7, 2005

You are as entitled to your views as I am to mine; if I am wrong, I am wrong, and will accept my punishment. I hope you are wrong, because mine is the way I like to think of God. You have made your point abundantly clear; if you wish to do so, please do not focus your views against anyone in particular.

true blood · Aug 7, 2005

Did Jesus Christ ever condemn a homosexual or any sinner? No.

CMIYC · Aug 7, 2005

michel said:
You are as entitled to your views as I am to mine; if I am wrong, I am wrong, and will accept my punishment. I hope you are wrong, because mine is the way I like to think of God. You have made your point abundantly clear; if you wish to do so, please do not focus your views against anyone in particular.

I dont get it. Where have I focused my view against anyone? I dont know this people from a bar of soap so at no point have I abused anyone, only opposed the act of homosexuality. But if you think its OK. to drive the getaway car for a robber and displacing yourself from the act. Well then peace be with you brother

Cheers

CMIYC · Aug 7, 2005

true blood said:
Did Jesus Christ ever condemn a homosexual or any sinner? No.

Thats because Jesus didnt come to change the laws but to fulfill them. Laws have already been set. Not an iota not a dot would pass gods judgment.. (laws)

Sorry

Fluffy · Aug 7, 2005

I would like to make some observations about this 10 page thread.

1) Over the first 6 pages, only 2 verses from scripture were given to support the idea that the Bible condemned homosexuality. These being Romans 1 24-32 (NKJV) and 1 Cor. 6:9 (NWT)
2) Over the next 3 pages, a further one verse was given, Leviticus 18:22
3) On the last page, my heart soared as CMIYC posted a reply full of what looked like possibly relevant scripture. Needless to say such joy was short lived.

So thats it is it? Thats all that the Bible has to say on the topic of homosexuality? Well there are one or two others.

However to focus on the ones that have been stated so far.

Romans 1:24-32 (NKJV)
First of all lets see what this scripture condemns, relating to homosexuality. [font=arial,helvetica]Bennett Sims says "[/font][font=arial,helvetica]For most of us who seriously honor Scripture these verses still stand as the capital New Testament text that unequivocally prohibits homosexual behavior. More prohibitively, this text has been taken to mean that even a same-sex inclination is reprehensible, so that a type of humanity known as 'homosexual' has steadily become the object of contempt and discrimination." Additionally, this passage condemns lesbians making it unique in the Bible.

Firstly a word of caution when dealing with the writings of Paul. [/font][font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]"As also in all his [Paul's] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." 2 Peter 3:15-17

And warnings from a more modern source. [/font][font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]"Paul's writings have been taken out of context and twisted to punish and oppress every identifiable minority in the world: Jews, children, women, blacks, slaves, politicians, divorced people, convicts, pro choice people, lesbians, gays, bisexuals, transsexuals, religious reformers, the mentally ill, and the list could go on and on. Paul is often difficult and confusing to understand. A lot of Paul's writing is very difficult to translate. Since most of his letters were written in response to news from other people, reading Paul can be like listening to one side of a telephone conversation. We know, or think we know, what Paul is saying, but we have to guess what the other side has said." [/font][font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]
- R.S. Truluck, "The six Bible passages used to condemn homosexuals," at: http://www.truluck.com/html/

Now I will draw your attention to specific parts of the scripture. "vile passions" is a phrase that is translated in quite a few different ways, depending on the version, such as "evil things" (Living Bible). The word "passions", in the original Greek, is also used to describe the suffering of Jesus in Acts 1:3 and therefore is unlikely to mean romantic love. Eros was the word used for such a thing but this is not used to describe what would be involved in a loving consenting homosexual relationship. At the time of his writing, there was a Pagan fertility cult on the rise in Corinth. Another possible interpretation is that Paul was referring to the drug induced state and sexual orgies of its members. Such an interpretation also explains the language used.

The next important note, and what is key for me, is that Paul talks of men and women "abandoning", "leaving", "exchanging" the normal, natural practices of beforehand, with homosexual sex. This implies that these were heterosexual men and women engaging in homosexual sex. If such a thing is true, then an alternative interpretation could be Paul telling Christians to stay true to their sexuality and not to try to be something which you are not for any reason, the reason this time being the lure of a pagan cult.

The words translated as "against nature" here, and often interpreted to mean that homosexuality is against nature and therefore wrong, have been used before. To refer to long hair on men as being unusual (NOT WRONG) (1 Cor. 11:14) NB for those who do not know, Paul also wrote 1 Corinthians; to refer to God's actions on bringing the Jews and Gentiles together (maybe God's actions, which by Paul's own words go "against nature", are wrong as well?) (Romans 11:24)

Now my last point is context, context and more context. www.religioustolerance.org offers an alternative interpretation of these passages based on the tradtional interpretation of the preceeding passages. Here it is:
[/font]

www.religioustolerance.org said:
[font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]
[/font][font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]

[/font] [font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Verses 21-23: The people had once been Christians. But they had fallen away from the faith, and returned to Paganism. They made images of Pagan gods in the form of men, birds, animals and reptiles for their religious rituals. The latter were probably held in Pagan temples.[/font][font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]
Verse 24: Next, they engaged in heterosexual orgies with each other as part of these pagan fertility rituals.[/font] [font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]
Verse 25: Next, they worshipped the images that they had made, instead of God, the creator. Paul is specifically condemning idol worship here.[/font] [font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]
Verse 26: Because of these forbidden practices, God intervened in these fertility sex-rituals and changed the people's behavior so that women started to engage in sexual activities with other women. [/font][font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]
Verse 27: describes how God had the men also engage in same-sex ritual activities. They (presumably both the men and women) were then punished in some way for their error. [/font][font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]
Verse 28: Again, because they did not acknowledge God, then He "gave them up" to many different unethical activities and attitudes: evil, covetousness, malice, envy, murder, etc.[/font]

Religious Tolerance then goes on to say, and I agree, that [font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]" The passage deals with immoral behavior among heterosexuals who have converted from Christianity to Paganism and engaged in behavior which is against their nature." [/font][font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]I would like to stress the word which I have underlined just so there is no confusion.

Now this is quite a long post. I am fully prepared to do the above for other Biblical passages (including the 2 others which have been cited) which condemn homosexuality but my fingers are very tired and my brain is hurting so if there is a demand for such then I will do so but not quite yet

.

Thank you very much for your time
Fluffy

Edit: Oh I nearly forgot, my references have been the following pages:
http://www.truluck.com/html/six_bible_passages.html
http://members.aol.com/DrSwiney/bennett.html
http://www.ualberta.ca/~cbidwell/UFMCC/freetobe.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibc3.htm

Also people might find the following of some interest:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/god_pra1.htm
[/font]

Mike182 · Aug 7, 2005

CMIYC said:
I dont know if opposing is gay bashing. I think if you want to be worthy of your beliefs then discouraging would be a greater help. Gees man! I dont know where you get god being all that lovable of sinners. God is just not lovable. I would like to direct you to some passages on what god thinks about sin.

2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB) From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces.

(1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV) And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and' fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter. And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us?

(Isaiah 14:21 NAB Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants.

(Hosea 9:11-16 NLT) The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children."

(Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT) "Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told."

yes i agree that gods wrath is a most powerful and frightening thing, but that doesnt make him an ignorant and immoral pig!(as these verses on their own make him out to be) he is and will forever remain the god of love, mercy, and wisdom. that is what i believe, and i believe i shall recieve this love, mercy, and wisdom through christ's blood that flowed on the cross - amen

C_P

CMIYC · Aug 8, 2005

corrupt_preist said:
yes i agree that gods wrath is a most powerful and frightening thing, but that doesnt make him an ignorant and immoral pig!(as these verses on their own make him out to be) he is and will forever remain the god of love, mercy, and wisdom. that is what i believe, and i believe i shall recieve this love, mercy, and wisdom through christ's blood that flowed on the cross - amen

C_P

Yes and no, depends on how his judgment affects your well being. My logics tell me, god and mother nature are one of the same, neither are fair but just. We are confusing justice with human kindness. Is human kindness good for humanity? Yes, without a doubt in my mind, but is human kindness good for physical evolution of humans? I very much would doubt that. So, now we are faced, either with temporary injustice or prolonged justice. Either way, both complement each other.

michel · Aug 8, 2005

CMIYC said:
I dont get it. Where have I focused my view against anyone? I dont know this people from a bar of soap so at no point have I abused anyone, only opposed the act of homosexuality. But if you think its OK. to drive the getaway car for a robber and displacing yourself from the act. Well then peace be with you brother

Cheers

Well, you may not actually think you are targetting one person, but if you look back on the thread, I think you will find that you are.

"But if you think its OK. to drive the getaway car for a robber and displacing yourself from the act."

Sorry but the above statement is misrepresentative; Religion is not the same as criminal justice; we are talking about someone here who cannot help being the way he is, and you are treating him like a Criminal - the above post proves it.

I don't think you are one of God's policemen; he can do his own policing, on his own!
Please try to refrain from being seen as to persecute one member of the forum by telling him repeatedly that whay he is is evil.

CMIYC · Aug 8, 2005

The above is showing a similarity, comparesment. The whole bible is full of examples when explanations are needed to relate to things. I think your head is too far up in clouds. read what it says not what it doesnt.. You definitely need a reality check and stop signaling me out.

scripture to condemn homosexuality

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