Women's role in the LDS church.

found myself writing another article for the new Mormon.org site (for whenever it finally gets up and running - I can't wait!) even though I'm supposed to be packing. (It's just a bunch of junk, I don't like junk, so I don't like packing it... can't I just travel with the shirt on my back? humph.)

There were several questions reguarding women in the church - why can't women hold the priesthood? Why can't women be bishops? etc. etc. I think most will answer this one with motherhood is the equiv of priesthood - the poor guys have to have some role to play, or they would be left out completely, yada yada...

rather repeat what I think others will surely say...

Matthew

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19:30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

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Matthew23:1 - 12
1 THEN spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 aAnd call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.


The above scriptures illustrate the point that those who seek to be “in front of others” are missing the point. The purpose of the church is to create a community in which we are all fellow heirs of Christ, side by side, “with” one another rather than “in front of”. I delight in being a female in the church, because it affords me the opportunity to be “with” others. Organization and leadership is needed, but honestly, the glory of it all lies in being within the midst of it all.

I love to read, and one of my favorite people and author is Jacques Lusseyran. He said “Love is an end of living in front of things, and a beginning of living with them” Lusseyran went blind at the age of 8. He described the paradigm shift of going blind in such a way that after reading his books, you wish you were blind too. He said that when he could see he was always standing off at a distance, superficially scanning the surface of things, standing in front of things. After losing his ability to see, he no longer stood in front of things viewing them from far off. He stood with them instead. After reading his book, I tried the experiment of closing my eyes, and walking around a room. As you close your eyes, everything disappears; you might as well be surrounded by nothing but void/vacant space. What lies around only comes into existence after you reach out and actually touch it. It was true. It is impossible for blind people to live in front of things. They only live with what they can reach out and touch. Lusseyran’s gift of being with others enabled him to screen applicants of spies, and therefore lead an underground resistance movement against the Nazi’s in WW2. Later he was imprisoned within the Buchenwald concentration camp. His blindness enabled him to see the people, rather than the wretchedness, in the camp. Of the camp he wrote:
“…I still had 11 months ahead of me in the camp. But today I have not a single evil memory of those three hundred and thirty days of extreme wretchedness. I was carried by a hand. I was covered by a wing. One doesn’t call such living emotions by their names. I hardly needed to look out for myself, and such concern would have seemed to me ridiculous. I knew it was dangerous and it was forbidden. I was free now to help the others, not always, not much, but in my own way I could help…. I cannot try to show other people how to go about holding on to life. I could turn toward them the flow of light and joy which had grown so abundant in me. From that time on they stopped stealing my bread or my soup. It never happened again. Often my comrades would wake me up in the night and take me to comfort someone, sometimes a long way off in another block. Almost everyone forgot I was a student. I became “the blind Frenchman.” For many I was just: the man who didn’t die.” Hundreds of people confided in me. The men were determined to talk to me. They spoke to me in French, in Russian, in German, in Polish. I did the best I could to understand them all. That is how I lived, how I survived. The rest I cannot describe.”

In short, Lusseyran discovered what living “with” people was all about. Living with people saved his life.

Our prophets and apostles are great men, and are equally yoked with their wives. I wish we could hear more from their wives during conference meetings, but suspect that their wives have learned the value of remaining in the midst of others, rather than allowing themselves to be paraded into the spotlight. We learned of the great power of President Hinckley’s wife Marjorie after she passed away and we all witnessed President Hinckley’s great sorrow in her absence. She once said:

"I don't want to drive up to the pearly gates in a shiny sports car, wearing beautifully, tailored clothes, my hair expertly coiffed, with long, perfectly manicured fingernails. I want to drive up in a station wagon that has mud on the wheels from taking kids to scout camp. I want to be there with a smudge of peanut butter on my shirt from making sandwiches for a sick neighbors children.
I want to be there with a little dirt under my fingernails from helping to weed someone's garden. I want to be there with children's sticky kisses on my cheeks and the tears of a friend on my shoulder. I want the Lord to know I was really here and that I really lived. " — Marjorie Pay Hinckley

Marjorie Pay Hinckley did not live out in the limelight in front of others, she lived with people – in the midst of them. We all honor and celebrate her as being a true disciple of Christ.

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Did that make sense? It's hard to really convey the concept I guess... ppl will think "she's just crying sour grapes over leadership roles she will never have" - but honestly, that's not it. If given the choice, I would actually prefer to be "with" people instead of in-front-of them. so humble and gracious I know but really, it's fun to be with people!

idea said:

Did that make sense? It's hard to really convey the concept I guess... ppl will think "she's just crying sour grapes over leadership roles she will never have" - but honestly, that's not it. If given the choice, I would actually prefer to be "with" people instead of in-front-of them. so humble and gracious I know but really, it's fun to be with people!

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I look at it as one fewer meetings to have to attend.

Katzpur said:

I look at it as one fewer meetings to have to attend.

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What you may not realize is that, at those meetings you don't attend, all we really decide is that we need to talk to the Relief Society President about stuff....

I have a few queries about this... our Anglican church has ordained women priests for the past few years, after proclaiming for several hundred years that this would be impossible.

There are many Christian churches that see that there is a Bar to women becoming priests so I have no problem with LDS Christians believing the same.

Some women excel in leadership and academic rolls.

Some Christian Churches have a problem with a woman taking up any roll that involves teaching, organising, or leadership when that involves males.


Questions... what is the position of women regarding leadership roles in the LDS?

.. if your Prophet revealed that women were no longer to be barred from the priesthood, or any other roll, would that be accepted.?

In the Anglican church similar decisions have created some division... or more exactly, highlighted divisions that were already extant.

Terrywoodenpic said:

I have a few queries about this... our Anglican church has ordained women priests for the past few years, after proclaiming for several hundred years that this would be impossible.

There are many Christian churches that see that there is a Bar to women becoming priests so I have no problem with LDS Christians believing the same.

Some women excel in leadership and academic rolls.

Some Christian Churches have a problem with a woman taking up any roll that involves teaching, organising, or leadership when that involves males.

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I don't have any problem believing that women are capable of fulfilling the responsibilities of any of the positions that are not available to them. There may be some in the church who do believe that, but there are people like that in any group.

It's a matter of not being directed to go that path, not a matter of believing that men are somehow superior (or inferior, as some try to put it).

Questions... what is the position of women regarding leadership roles in the LDS?

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They can and do hold leadership roles. They aren't the same rolls as are available to men though. For example, women head up the woman's orgainzation (the Relief Society), and the Young Women's and Primary (children's organization) at both the local and general level.

They can't preside over an entire congregation or over the church as a whole though.

.. if your Prophet revealed that women were no longer to be barred from the priesthood, or any other roll, would that be accepted.?

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There might be some dissention, but in general, yes it would. After the revelation extending the Priesthood to every worthy man, Elder Bruce R. McConkie had this to say "All Are Alike unto God" - Bruce R. McConkie:

Bruce R. McConkie said:

There are statements in our literature by the early Brethren which we have interpreted to mean that the Negroes would not receive the priesthood in mortality. I have said the same things, and people write me letters and say, “You said such and such, and how is it now that we do such and such?” And all I can say to that is that it is time disbelieving people repented and got in line and believed in a living, modern prophet. Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world.


We get our truth and our light line upon line and precept upon precept. We have now had added a new flood of intelligence and light on this particular subject, and it erases all the darkness and all the views and all the thoughts of the past. They don’t matter any more.

It doesn’t make a particle of difference what anybody ever said about the Negro matter before the first day of June of this year, 1978. It is a new day and a new arrangement, and the Lord has now given the revelation that sheds light out into the world on this subject. As to any slivers of light or any particles of darkness of the past, we forget about them. We now do what meridian Israel did when the Lord said the gospel should go to the Gentiles. We forget all the statements that limited the gospel to the house of Israel, and we start going to the Gentiles.

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I believe the same would apply.

In the Anglican church similar decisions have created some division... or more exactly, highlighted divisions that were already extant.

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It probably would highlight some divisions. Like Elder McConkie said, though, it would be "time disbelieving people repented and got in line and believed in a living, modern prophet."

I believe a primary role for women in the LDS church is to get educated.

Terrywoodenpic said:

I have a few queries about this... our Anglican church has ordained women priests for the past few years, after proclaiming for several hundred years that this would be impossible.

There are many Christian churches that see that there is a Bar to women becoming priests so I have no problem with LDS Christians believing the same.

Some women excel in leadership and academic rolls.

Some Christian Churches have a problem with a woman taking up any roll that involves teaching, organising, or leadership when that involves males.


Questions... what is the position of women regarding leadership roles in the LDS?

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women are called as teachers, and leaders in the relief society, primary (children's) organization, young womens (for teenagers), public affairs, humanitarian organizations, church welfare, activities committee, visiting teaching supervisors.... let's see, what am I forgetting? In short, women tend to lead in everything save being a bishop.

.. if your Prophet revealed that women were no longer to be barred from the priesthood, or any other roll, would that be accepted.?

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It would be accepted... it would also mean that there was a serious shortage of honorable male priesthood holders. In the Old Testament this happened -

(Topical Guide | PProphetess:Entry)
Prophetess
Ex. 15:20 Miriam the p.
Judg. 4:4 Deborah, a p.
2 Kgs. 22:14 (2 Chr. 34:22) Huldah the p.
Isa. 8:3 (2 Ne. 18:3) I went unto the p., and she conceived, and bare a son
Luke 2:36 Anna, a p.
Rev. 2:20 Jezebel, which calleth herself a p
See also Neh. 6:14; Acts 21:9.

PROPHETESS.
A woman who has received a testimony of Jesus and enjoys the spirit of revelation.

(Old Testament | Genesis25:22 - 23)
22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD.
23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

even though Rebekah is married to the great and mighty Isaac, she does not go to Isaac for Isaac to get revelations for her - she goes straight to God, and God answers her prayer just as he answered her husband. equally yoked.

There are a few accounts of prophetesses in LDS history who gave blessings etc. etc. - very hush hush on most of it. One of the famous stories that is told is about a woman who performed the miracle of making her sick oxen rise up and pull her wagon...

one thing I was surprised was included in our Joseph Smith manual:

LDS.org - Support Materials Chapter - Relief Society: Divine Organization of Women

“This Society is to get instruction through the order which God has established—through the medium of those appointed to lead—and I now turn the key to you in the name of God, and this Society shall rejoice, and knowledge and intelligence shall flow down from this time—this is the beginning of better days to this Society.”10

Women were given "keys" when the relief society - women's organization was established. "given keys" is usually used in ref to "priesthood keys" so for Joseph to turn the keys over to women... well, everyone can make of that what they will. For me, it means motherhood is equal to priesthood.

seriously though - the greatest shall be your servant.
What makes the greatest leaders? The greatest leaders are those who intimately understand their followers. How better to intimately understand followers than to be one for a time? Now to be a follower - to really get the whole experience of it all - you have to 100% be a follower with no hope of ever being anything else... so, if God wants to raise up some really good leaders, the best way to do it? raise up a bunch of people who know how to be a follower - because in the end, they will be the ones who make the best leaders. Last shall be first? just speculations - but really - I honestly don't need to be first, I really do prefer being "with" others than being "in front of" them.

one more thing - the power of role reversal.

In Eden, it was Eve who was the leader, Eve who first ate the fruit, Adam followed Eve, then he followed God.... To know each other, to really know each other, walk a mile in their shoes right?

It feels a little like God reversed the roles of men and women here for a time on Earth... For many things, women are natural born leaders - when your kids call the house, who do they first ask to talk to? "Is mom there?" ... mom is usually the one who organizes everything etc. etc.... so in this life, guys are forced into a leadership role, and women visa versa - why? perhaps so that each can figure out who the other is - walk a mile in their shoes - etc. etc.

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the above were ideas from a fireside we had - talk by our bishop notes here: http://kw1ward.blogspot.com/2009/09/information-for-husbandwife-retreat.html

Priesthood in the Partnership
Saturday morning session, Bishop Maranto.

- Why do men hold the priesthood and women do not?
- How should the husband “rule over” his wife?
- Do men preside because they are better leaders?

Christ Like Leadership Attributes - seem to be feminine attributes
Organized (Compare YM/YW presidents - YW are more organized)
Decisive (Women do what feels right/Men analyze)
Spiritual (Women are intuitive – naturally open to impressions of the Spirit)
Loving/Compassionate
Selfless

Elder John A. Widtsoe said: “The Priesthood always presides and must, for the sake of order. The women of a congregation or auxiliary—many of them—may be wiser, far greater in mental powers, even greater in natural power of leadership than the men who preside over them” (Priesthood and Church Government, compiled by John A. Widtsoe, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1939, page 90).

If women could be better leaders, why do men lead in the Church?
Adam and Eve
Who was the leader and who was the follower?

Three commandments:
• Cleave to each other
• Multiply and replenish the earth
• Do not partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil

Lucifer tempts Adam and Eve
• Told Adam that the fruit was good to the taste and very desirable (appealed to the flesh).
• Told Eve that the fruit was good to the taste and very desirable (appealed to the flesh).
• Told Eve the fruit would make her wise and that she would become as the Gods knowing good and evil (appealed to the spirit).
• Eve asked, “Is there no other way?”

Eve tempts Adam
• Told Adam that the fruit was good to the taste and very desirable (appealed to the flesh).
• Explained to Adam that if he didn’t partake of the fruit, he would be left alone in the garden and unable to keep the commandments to be with her and to multiply and replenish the earth (appealed to the spirit).

Roles of Adam and Eve
• Eve was the leader.
o Eve intuitively recognized the opportunity to become more like God.
o She acted decisively.
o She persuaded Adam to partake.
o She led Adam to the path to exaltation.

• Adam was the submissive follower.
o Submitted to the will of the Father by resisting Lucifer’s initial temptation.
o Submitted to the will of the Father by resisting Eve’s initial temptation.
o Submitted to the will of the Father by choosing to partake to keep the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth.
o Submitted to his wife’s wise counsel and leadership.

Perhaps women are natural leaders and men are natural followers.

A marriage counselor observed that when a husband and wife are having difficulties in their marriage, almost without exception, the wife seeks to control the situation and the husband seeks to submit. (The woman takes the lead and the man follows.)

Genesis 3:16
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.


Note that Eve was first given power to create life before Adam was given priesthood authority to preside; therefore, Adam was given power, not to be greater than Eve, but to be equal with her.

If women are natural leaders and men are natural followers as one might hypothesize, why did God switch their roles and appoint the man to lead?

cont.

Genesis 1: 26-27
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

God created mankind in his image. The image of God is both male and female in that God is a perfect, complete being. As such, he possesses the godly attributes that are inherent in man and the godly attributes that are inherent in women.

A man cannot become like God, a perfect being, unless he develops those godly attributes that are not inherent in him, such as the attributes that are inherent in women. Also, a woman cannot become like God, a perfect being, unless she develops those godly attributes that are not inherent in women, such as those that are inherent in men.

As men preside in the church and in the home, they learn to be organized, decisive, spiritual, loving, compassionate and selfless, to name a few.

Elder Stephen L Richards declared: “The Priesthood is usually simply defined as ‘the power of God delegated to man.’ This definition, I think, is accurate. But for practical purposes I like to define the Priesthood in terms of service and I frequently call it ‘the perfect plan of service.’ I do so because it seems to me that it is only through the utilization of the divine power conferred on men that they may ever hope to realize the full import and vitality of this endowment. It is an instrument of service."

As women “let every man learn his duty, and to act in the office in which he is appointed” (D&C 107:99) they develop the godly attributes that transcend the natural man as they “become…submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon [them].” (Mosiah 3:19)

In short, our Father, in a very natural way, has placed us in unnatural roles that we might learn to be more like him as we develop the characteristics less common to our gender.

Husband to Rule
What do you think of when you hear the word “rule?” (tyranny, unrighteous dominion, etc.)
When the Father instructed Adam to “rule over” his wife, Adam understood the word “rule” in the only context he had observed—the “rule” of his loving, compassionate Father.
Paul has counseled, “Husbands, love [rule] your wives, even as Christ also loved [ruled] the church, and gave himself for it” (Ephesians 5:25). In commenting on this counsel, President Kimball provided this important insight:
“Can you think of how [Christ] loved the church? Its every breath was important to him. Its every growth, its every individual, was precious to him. He gave to those people all his energy, all his power, all his interest. He gave his life—and what more could one give? … When the husband is ready to treat his household in that manner, not only his wife but also his children will respond to his loving and exemplary leadership. It will be automatic. He won’t need to demand it. …
“Certainly if fathers are to be respected, they must merit respect: If they are to be loved, they must be consistent, lovable, understanding, and kind—and they must honor their priesthood” (Men of Example, pamphlet, Salt Lake City: Church Educational System, 1973, page 5).

Wives Should Submit
Wives, submit to your husbands (Eph. 5:22-28), not because you are inferior, but because your husband is and needs to develop your godly attributes. Allow your husband to be the spiritual leader in the home even if he is spiritually weaker.

President Thomas S. Monson: Both husband and wife should appreciate that “woman was taken out of man; not out of his feet to be trampled underfoot, but out of his side to be equal to him, under his arm to be protected, and near his heart to be loved.” Be patient, be tender, be loving, be considerate, be understanding. Be your best self as you sustain your husband, remembering that children often outgrow their need for affection, but husbands never do. (“The Spirit of Relief Society&#8221

President Joseph Fielding Smith taught, “There is nothing in the teachings of the gospel which declares that men are superior to women,” he said. “The Lord has given unto men the power of priesthood and sent them forth to labor in his service. The woman’s calling is in a different direction. The most noble, exalting calling of all is that which has been given to women as the mothers of men. Women do not hold the priesthood, but if they are faithful and true they will become priestesses and queens in the kingdom of God, and that implies that they will be given authority. The women do not hold the priesthood with their husbands, but they do reap the benefits coming from that priesthood” (Doctrines of Salvation, 3 volumes, compiled by Bruce R. McConkie, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954–56, 3:178; italics in original).

Elder John A. Widstoe said, “No man who understands the gospel believes that he is greater than his wife, or more beloved of the Lord, because he holds the priesthood” (Evidences and Reconciliations, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1960, p. 308).

We are the product of our core genetics, our personality, and our behaviors. Our genetics and personalities do not change. We change our behaviors as required by our environment.

"not because you are inferior, but because your husband is and needs to develop your godly attributes...."

A great story in the BOM about fatherhood leadership:

so they can't get food, and everyone starts complaining - including the father, the patriarch, the leader:

(Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi16:21 - 25)
21 Now it came to pass that I, Nephi, having been afflicted with my brethren because of the loss of my bow, and their bows having lost their asprings, it began to be exceedingly difficult, yea, insomuch that we could obtain no food.
22 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did speak much unto my brethren, because they had hardened their hearts again, even unto acomplaining against the Lord their God.
23 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did amake out of wood a bow, and out of a straight stick, an arrow; wherefore, I did arm myself with a bow and an arrow, with a sling and with stones. And I said unto my bfather: Whither shall I go to obtain food?
24 And it came to pass that he did ainquire of the Lord, for they had bhumbled themselves because of my words; for I did say many things unto them in the energy of my soul.
25 And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord came unto my father; and he was truly achastened because of his murmuring against the Lord, insomuch that he was brought down into the depths of sorrow.

Just because Nephi is the only one who holds out, the only one who does not complain - does he reject his father as being leader? some would - I mean his father was weak, chastened by the Lord etc. etc. but Nephi still goes to his father for help - even though his father is an imperfect leader:

(Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi16:23)
23 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did amake out of wood a bow, and out of a straight stick, an arrow; wherefore, I did arm myself with a bow and an arrow, with a sling and with stones. And I said unto my bfather: Whither shall I go to obtain food?

Nephi does all the work, is the real leader, but is humble enough to ask his imperfect father for help.
His father is not the natural leader - Nephi is helping his father out, making him into a leader... Many women often feel like Nephi. It does feel like a role reversal so that everyone can know who everyone else is.

one question for you LDSers:

Every person who has received the LDS temple endowment knows that women perform for other women the “initiatory ordinances” of washing and anointing...... Yet every Mormon knows that men who perform temple ordinances and healing ordinances must have the Melchizedek priesthood.

What power allows women to give blessings etc. etc. in the temple?

It's a special thing. Every rule has its exceptions.

It's because the women didn't like being touched by the men while partially naked

no one has answered the question yet...
What power allows women to give blessings in the temple?
I have my recommend interview tomorrow, I think I'll ask our Stake leadership (whoever ends up with me )

I already answered the question, thank you very much.

FireOfTheCovenant said:

I already answered the question, thank you very much.

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so you believe that women hold the priesthood?
or do you believe that the ordinance of washing can be performed without the priesthood?

Modern explanation: the power of the risk of legal liability.

But - women laying on hands is historically sound - it occurred in ancient times and in the restored church. That's not to say they hold the priesthood.

idea said:

so you believe that women hold the priesthood?
or do you believe that the ordinance of washing can be performed without the priesthood?

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Don't know, don't care.

I know in early LDS church history women gave blessings by laying on of hands. Things have changed since then.