Did Jesus really suffer?

Well, do you really think he did? I read a great book, Memnoch the Devil (book 5 of the Anne Rice Vampire Series) and it brought up a great point. Jesus knew that he was the son of god and knew about heaven and knew about all of that. So when he was tortured and eventually killed, he knew he was going to be resurrected and then that he would go to heaven.

So what extraordinary thing did Jesus do? If you knew you were the son of god and if you went through all this torture and what have you that you would go to heaven and save everyones sins, wouldn't you do that? To me it is just extraordinary things that happened to Jesus, he didn't exactly do anything extraordinary himself (as far as putting up with the torture and what have you)

Hebrews 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. 2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart. NIV

The question then is NOT whether Jesus suffered, but that he considered such suffering a "light and momentary affliction". I am glad that I have such a loving savior that would eagerly subject himself to such humiliation.

Ryan,

We believe that Christ was true God and true man....
472 This human soul that the Son of God assumed is endowed with a true human knowledge. As such, this knowledge could not in itself be unlimited: it was exercised in the historical conditions of his existence in space and time. This is why the Son of God could, when he became man, "increase in wisdom and in stature, and in favor with God and man",101 and would even have to inquire for himself about what one in the human condition can learn only from experience.102 This corresponded to the reality of his voluntary emptying of himself, taking "the form of a slave".103

101 Lk 2:52.
102 Cf. Mk 6 38; 8 27; Jn 11:34; etc.
103 Phil 2:7.

It was the most extraordinary thing that ever happened.

Scott1 said:

Ryan,

We believe that Christ was true God and true man....
472 This human soul that the Son of God assumed is endowed with a true human knowledge. As such, this knowledge could not in itself be unlimited: it was exercised in the historical conditions of his existence in space and time. This is why the Son of God could, when he became man, "increase in wisdom and in stature, and in favor with God and man",101 and would even have to inquire for himself about what one in the human condition can learn only from experience.102 This corresponded to the reality of his voluntary emptying of himself, taking "the form of a slave".103

101 Lk 2:52.
102 Cf. Mk 6 38; 8 27; Jn 11:34; etc.
103 Phil 2:7.

It was the most extraordinary thing that ever happened.

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i second that one

C_P

Ryan2065 said:

Well, do you really think he did? I read a great book, Memnoch the Devil (book 5 of the Anne Rice Vampire Series) and it brought up a great point. Jesus knew that he was the son of god and knew about heaven and knew about all of that. So when he was tortured and eventually killed, he knew he was going to be resurrected and then that he would go to heaven.

So what extraordinary thing did Jesus do? If you knew you were the son of god and if you went through all this torture and what have you that you would go to heaven and save everyones sins, wouldn't you do that? To me it is just extraordinary things that happened to Jesus, he didn't exactly do anything extraordinary himself (as far as putting up with the torture and what have you)

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First of all, what's your real question? Is it, "Did Jesus really suffer?" or "What extraordinary thing did Jesus do?"

I would say that it goes without saying that He suffered. In the Garden of Gethsemane, He suffered so intensely that He actually sweat great drops of blood. This is a real phenomenon, but one that results from pain much more intense that most people will ever have to endure. If you had ever read any information on death by crucifixion, you wouldn't even have to ask whether or not He suffered. The fact that He did so willingly doesn't seem to me to be evidence that it was not an extremely difficult thing. Look how He begged His Father to remove the cup from Him. For Him to have been frightened enough to have asked if there wasn't another option makes it pretty plain to me that, even though He knew how important His mission was, He would have preferred to find another way of accomplishing it.

As to what "extraordinary" thing He did, I'd say that laying down His life and taking it up again would qualify as something pretty impressive. Even if He hadn't suffered, the miracle of His resurrection alone seems to me to be the single most significant thing anyone has ever accomplished since the world began.

weren't there hundreds of people killed and totured in the same way there? Those people didn't know they were going to heaven or helping mankind, and some still died for the beliefs...isn't that more amazing?

Katzpur said:

As to what "extraordinary" thing He did, I'd say that laying down His life and taking it up again would qualify as something pretty impressive. Even if He hadn't suffered, the miracle of His resurrection alone seems to me to be the single most significant thing anyone has ever accomplished since the world began.

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He did so knowing there was a god, knowing he was going to go to heaven, and knowing that he was the son of god. How much can one really suffer if they know all of this? Many people die for their faith around the world, people set themselves on fire for their faith in some places. Aren't these people more extraordinary than Jesus? They do so on blind faith, he did so knowing everything that would happen.

The reason I said that he wasn't so extraordinary is because if god spoke to you and told you that if you endured the pain and torture of a crucifixion you would go to heaven, wouldn't you jump at that chance? 3 days of pain for eternal happiness? Who wouldn't?

Scott1 said:

We believe that Christ was true God and true man....
472 This human soul that the Son of God assumed is endowed with a true human knowledge. As such, this knowledge could not in itself be unlimited: it was exercised in the historical conditions of his existence in space and time. This is why the Son of God could, when he became man, "increase in wisdom and in stature, and in favor with God and man",101 and would even have to inquire for himself about what one in the human condition can learn only from experience.102 This corresponded to the reality of his voluntary emptying of himself, taking "the form of a slave".103

101 Lk 2:52.
102 Cf. Mk 6 38; 8 27; Jn 11:34; etc.
103 Phil 2:7.

It was the most extraordinary thing that ever happened.

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I anticipated this response before I made my post. As you can see in my origional post...

Ryan2065 said:

So what extraordinary thing did Jesus do? If you knew you were the son of god and if you went through all this torture and what have you that you would go to heaven and save everyones sins, wouldn't you do that? To me it is just extraordinary things that happened to Jesus, he didn't exactly do anything extraordinary himself (as far as putting up with the torture and what have you)

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If he was the son of god that truely was extraordinary. That is not what I am point out here. I am point out that if he was the son of god and knew this, that what he did was not so extraordinary, because he knew what would happen to him in the afterlife and knew that he would go to heaven. We see many people die in horrible ways for their faith all around the world, the fact that he knew what would happen to him and the fact that he is the son of god lessened the significance of his death compared to the other people who die for their faith. That is what I am saying, not that he wasn't extraordinary, but that his death wasn't extraordinary.

Romans 5:6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. NIV

So the question is: would you die to save the guy who just cut you off in traffic? I didn't think so. Hopefully, that will put his obviously "ordinary" sacrifice into perspective for you.

We all suffer. Life is about suffering. From the moment we are born, we experience pain and suffering as our spirit grows, and our body slowly dies.

If Jesus lived, then he suffered. If he tried to do good things for others, then he most definitely suffered. "No good deed goes unpunished".

Our problem is that we label suffering as a bad thing. It may certainly be undesireable, but through suffering, we learn to love (or hate-your choice) more deeply.

NetDoc said:

So the question is: would you die to save the guy who just cut you off in traffic? I didn't think so. Hopefully, that will put his obviously "ordinary" sacrifice into perspective for you.

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I'd say the question is would you die for the sins of all man, seeing as that is what Jesus did. He didn't really die ONLY for that person that cut you off in traffic.

God became man. When god was man he did not know that he was god. One day god tells Jesus that he is the son of god, later he tells Jesus that you need to die for our sins. If god told you today that you were the son of god and that you would need to die for the sins of everyone on the planet, would you? I think the answer would be yes for most people =)

Ryan said:

I think the answer would be yes for most people =)

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Ah Ryan... you missed a part of the equation... Would you live a perfect life first, never hating anyone and loving those who hate you, never telling one lie but speaking the truth in love, never wanting what others had but lovingly giving of yourself every single day of your life, and THEN while you were in your ABSOLUTE PRIME would you subject yourself to those who hated you?

But actually, if you aren't ready to die for the guy who just cut you off in traffic, then you aren't even CLOSE to being ready to die for the whole world. Don't kid yourself.

NetDoc said:

Ah Ryan... you missed a part of the equation... Would you live a perfect life first, never hating anyone and loving those who hate you, never telling one lie but speaking the truth in love, never wanting what others had but lovingly giving of yourself every single day of your life, and THEN while you were in your ABSOLUTE PRIME would you subject yourself to those who hated you?

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Do you mean live a perfect life or live a life without sin? Here is some logic for you.
1. A sin is an action contrary to the will of god.
2. Jesus is the son of god and a co-equal in the trinity.
3. An action that Jesus did is the will of Jesus, aka, god.
4. Therefore Jesus can do no sin because he is god made flesh.

So if I was the son of god and in the trinity, anything that I had ever done would be the will of god and not a sin. Also, Jesus himself never says that he has not sinned, it is always those that are talking about him. A show of this is that Jesus committed many sins of that time. He worked on the Sabbath, he ate without washing his hands, he verbally abused the pharisees, he stole animals, and he physically assulted people in the temple. All of these were sins and some are even considered sins in this day and age. The reason Jesus got away with them is because he is the son of god.

NetDoc said:

But actually, if you aren't ready to die for the guy who just cut you off in traffic, then you aren't even CLOSE to being ready to die for the whole world. Don't kid yourself.

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Actually logic is on my side on this one. If there is one person in the world I would sacrifice myself for, then I would be ready to do what Jesus did. Is there one person on this earth you would endure the pain of crucifixion for to bring them to eternal happiness? Is the fact that someone who cut you off in traffic will get the same chance at eternal happiness reason enough for you to not sacrifice yourself for that one person? Remember, Jesus did not guarantee us heaven, he opened the gates so that we COULD get to heaven, not that everyone would. There are still other things one must do in order to get to heaven =)

I still don't see anyone showing me how Jesus' death was extraordinary... No one is even showing me that he could have felt a humans pain. Physically, yes he could have, but mentally? He knew there was god, he knew there was heaven. There is no way he could have felt the mental anguish of someone going through crucifixion because he knew his death meant something.

Ryan2065 said:

Well, do you really think he did? I read a great book, Memnoch the Devil (book 5 of the Anne Rice Vampire Series) and it brought up a great point. Jesus knew that he was the son of god and knew about heaven and knew about all of that. So when he was tortured and eventually killed, he knew he was going to be resurrected and then that he would go to heaven.

So what extraordinary thing did Jesus do? If you knew you were the son of god and if you went through all this torture and what have you that you would go to heaven and save everyones sins, wouldn't you do that? To me it is just extraordinary things that happened to Jesus, he didn't exactly do anything extraordinary himself (as far as putting up with the torture and what have you)

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I don't quite think you have the picture Ryan; Jesus wasn't going to say " OH blast this being cruicified business, I'm so powerful I can blot out the pain.."- as NetDoc said, he voluntarily went through the pain as a gift to us - and I could only hope that I would be prepared to do the same for him.

Michel said:

I don't quite think you have the picture Ryan; Jesus wasn't going to say " OH blast this being cruicified business, I'm so powerful I can blot out the pain.."- as NetDoc said, he voluntarily went through the pain as a gift to us - and I could only hope that I would be prepared to do the same for him

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I didn't do such a good job explaining Memnoch the Devil's stance on this. The stance was, Jesus knew that there was a god, knew gods plan for him, knew that nothing bad would happen to him in the afterlife, and some even say that he was god. How can someone feel human pain when they know all of this?

Ryan said:

I still don't see anyone showing me how Jesus' death was extraordinary.

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Well, I have to agree with you here. When your mind is closed, even the most lucid of arguments can be ignored. No one can "show you" anything, unless you are actually looking for truth. I can only tell you that I am extremely happy that Jesus' life and death were incredibly extraoridinary. So much so, that 2,000 years later many still worship him. Selah.

However, if you think you are equal to the task, the next time there is a hostage situation, go ask to replace one of the hostages.

NetDoc said:

However, if you think you are equal to the task, the next time there is a hostage situation, go ask to replace one of the hostages.

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Again, this is nothing compared to the good that you say Jesus' death gave us. If aliens came and held the world hostage saying that everyone on the planet would be doomed to torture, and the only way out would be for one person to sacrifice themselves and then they would leave everyone alone I would gladly volunteer. This is closer to what jesus did =)

Ryan2065 said:

I didn't do such a good job explaining Memnoch the Devil's stance on this. The stance was, Jesus knew that there was a god, knew gods plan for him, knew that nothing bad would happen to him in the afterlife, and some even say that he was god. How can someone feel human pain when they know all of this?

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I don't think it matters who you are - I don't somehow imagine that being Cruicified - whatever your beliefs about the afterlife, after having been publicly humiliated and taunted before the cruicifiction could ever be seen as some 'not painful experience'. You seem to be confusing 'fear of death' with just sheer pain of dying in a horrible manner.

Sorry Ryan,

Both are a far cry from what Jesus did.

He could have just let us all die and stayed with God. But he loved those who were far less than him.

Like most people, you seem to focus ONLY on the physical aspect of the crucifixion. Jesus was seldom quoted in his native tongue. So go and figure out why he said "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" You might begin to understand the true horror of what he went through. Then again, that might also elude you. Time will tell.

NetDoc said:

Both are a far cry from what Jesus did.

He could have just let us all die and stayed with God. But he loved those who were far less than him.

Like most people, you seem to focus ONLY on the physical aspect of the crucifixion. Jesus was seldom quoted in his native tongue. So go and figure out why he said "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" You might begin to understand the true horror of what he went through. Then again, that might also elude you. Time will tell.

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I understand that point very well, Net doc, but I am responding to a non-Christian to whom , as far as I can see, the contradiction lies in what I described - It takes a belief in God and in Jesus, to understand the real horror - and that is something a non Christian won't understand, or accept.