Welcome to the freedom of speech!

Terrywoodenpic said:

And the short answer is......
Jews are not an ethnic or racial group.:yes:

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For the most part, you are right and I agree. although genetic studies indicate that a white Jew shares genetic elements with a Jew from the deep desert in Yemen, a 'Jewish gene' if you will.

I have 1/4 Jewish blood. I share neither the religion, the ethos, or the cultural bonds of Jewish society. However For some ( like the nazis) I was sufficiently jewish for them to wish to have me and my family eliminated.

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Finally, we agree.
Hertzel the father of modern Zionism said that it is the anti-Semites which turn us into Jews, normally we are Europeans, Arabs (and others), who work to live in a modern world, secular for the most part, but there will always be people who will categorize other Europeans or other individuals as 'Jews'.
I can tell you that my 'Jewish identity' only matters when I meet adversity, then and only then I'm all consumed with promoting 'Jewish interests', or rather promoting Jewish survival. the spine of my identity is Atheism, which I have been since birth.

How does Jewis society decide that a person is sufficiently jewish to be accepted into their number. If religion is not necessary, what is?

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It doesnt, 'Jewish society' is a fiction, a myth, we are normal citizens, and I dont always understand why people bother converting into Judaism, as they will be accepted by secular Israelis for what they are (Americans, Canadians etc.). it is an enigma to me, I see no reason in conversion, but perhaps because I come from an atheistic prespective.

Caladan said:

For the most part, you are right and I agree. although genetic studies indicate that a white Jew shares genetic elements with a Jew from the deep desert in Yemen, a 'Jewish gene' if you will.


Finally, we agree.
Hertzel the father of modern Zionism said that it is the anti-Semites which turn us into Jews, normally we are Europeans, Arabs (and others), who work to live in a modern world, secular for the most part, but there will always be people who will categorize other Europeans or other individuals as 'Jews'.
I can tell you that my 'Jewish identity' only matters when I meet adversity, then and only then I'm all consumed with promoting 'Jewish interests', or rather promoting Jewish survival. the spine of my identity is Atheism, which I have been since birth.


It doesnt, 'Jewish society' is a fiction, a myth, we are normal citizens, and I dont always understand why people bother converting into Judaism, as they will be accepted by secular Israelis for what they are (Americans, Canadians etc.). it is an enigma to me, I see no reason in conversion, but perhaps because I come from an atheistic prespective.

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How does a "religious Jew" regard an "athiest Jew" and how do they view a "Christian" with 100% Jewish Blood, who rejects the Jewish Ethos (christians do)

Terrywoodenpic said:

How does a "religious Jew" regard an "athiest Jew" and how do they view a "Christian" with 100% Jewish Blood, who rejects the Jewish Ethos (christians do)

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Let me give you a scenario which I took part in this week. I was on a short reserve duty, we had some spare time, so me and my other comrades set around and talked, now as far as I know, most of the soldiers who serve with me are atheists, eitherway one of the 'traditional' guys wanted to tease us so he got out a Jewish 'wisdom booklet' and started reading to us, to which I said to another friend of mine jokingly to 'cut the preaching over there!', either way the punch line was 'Judaism is garbage', and you know what? there are a few religious Jews serving with us, and they realize that many of us have contempt for many things about religion, but we are still best friends and work together, I have friends who are traditional, and for the most part they take their beliefs lightly and are flexible about them, willing to compromise in order to meet modern life.
as for Christians rejecting Jewish ethos. im afraid you need to look around you. the Jewish ethos has conquered the world centuries ago. the fact is that the majority of people in the world belong to a faith which idolizes a Jew from Galilee, and a faith which was designed by first century and second century Jews. the Hebrew Bible is the most celebrated piece of text in history.

Caladan said:

..., either way the punch line was 'Judaism is garbage',

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... potentially a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Jayhawker Soule said:

... potentially a self-fulfilling prophesy.

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Im afraid you simply dont understand the complexities religion is creating in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and to Israeli society. religion does not unify Israelis, it only separates them. most of the racism in Israel comes from religious elements, often against other Jews.

Terrywoodenpic said:

Mrs Thomas probably did and took it into account.

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Probably? You simply fabricate for convenience. It's rather pathetic ...

mball1297 said:

If the same person or someone else in her position made similar comments about Islam, Muslims or Muhammed, the result would have been the same.

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I doubt it, or let's say I'am sure it wouldn't have the same results.

Jayhawker Soule said:

The result would have been the same in the US. .

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No, it wouldn't be the same Jay, and I believe you know that well.

Jay said:

Elsewhere, it would have resulted in mass demonstrations calling for the perpetrators death

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There should be demonstrations but they shouldn't be calling for death.
However, if the demonstrators shouted with death but witout putting it into action, Israel however doesn't maybe call for death publicly but secretly yes and they put it into action and secretly.

Jayhawker Soule said:

Out of curiosity, which Middle East country would you prefer that we emulate? Which would you claim has a press that is more free?

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For the meantime, non. But there will models to emulate in the future, incha'Allah!

atotalstranger said:

Ah, so you want to be able to criticize the things you want to, and to not allow people to criticize things you don't want to be criticized. This is why we need freedom of speech. To protect people's right to free expression from people like you.

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I don't need your fake freedom of speech that doesnt' respect others and has no morals.

Peace said:

I don't need your fake freedom of speech that doesnt' respect others and has no morals.

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Things don't have morals.

I, for instance, have no need for any of that math nonsense - it has no respect for others and it has no morals!

Peace said:

I don't need your fake freedom of speech that doesnt' respect others and has no morals.

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Says the man who uses the free speech provided by the internet to anonymously say whatever is on his mind.

stephenw said:

#

First let me state my opinion - I think the old lady was wrong in what she said and I don't think that she could keep her job after the views she expressed.

On the other hand it seems to me that Islam can be insulted with impunity - e.g. the cartoon saga.

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Not by people in the media. That's the point I was trying to make before. If someone similar had insulted Islam in the same way, the same reaction would have occurred. There is no double standard.

There is an inconsistency there.

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No, there isn't. In an equivalent situation where Islam or Muslims were insulted, the same result would have occurred.

I think anti-semetic speech should be banned. I think the same is true for anti-Islamic speech.

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But where do you draw the line? Can someone go to jail for drawing a cartoon of Muhammed? What if I get caught saying "I hate Muslims" or "I hate Islam"?

mball1297 said:

No, there isn't. In an equivalent situation where Islam or Muslims were insulted, the same result would have occurred.

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Great point mball, the current American leader has bent over backwards in showing respect for Islam, sometimes at the cause of diplomatic flunks, even Mr dummie before him praised Islam.
there are American Muslim citizens, some people make it sound as if these people are being killed on the streets of NY by the national gaurd.

Peace said:

However, when it comes to Israel and once you say something bad about it, you are frown at and insulted and called anti-semite.

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And how is that any different than the death threats and such over the mention of drawing of Mohammad?

Peace said:

I doubt it, or let's say I'am sure it wouldn't have the same results.

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OK, let's say you're sure it wouldn't. You're still wrong. I know it's fun for you to be the victim and feel persecuted, but it's not an accurate view of reality.

Mestemia said:

And how is that any different than the death threats and such over the mention of drawing of Mohammad?

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I'll tell you the difference. when Jews are being badmouthed, or critizied or whatever you want to call it, they file complaints and use their leverage to counter it, by contrast, some Muslims go nuts and burn embassies and assassinate peaceful European citizens when someone dares to say something about their 7th century general and make the connection to current Islamist violence.

Caladan said:

Great point mball, the current American leader has bent over backwards in showing respect for Islam, sometimes at the cause of diplomatic flunks, even Mr dummie before him praised Islam.
there are American Muslim citizens, some people make it sound as if these people are being killed on the streets of NY by the national gaurd.

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They are, I have seen them...

just after they sold me a gyro (thats kebab for brits)

Peace said:

I don't need your fake freedom of speech that doesnt' respect others and has no morals.

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No, you prefer your hypocrisy.
Duly noted.

Peace said:

I don't need your fake freedom of speech that doesnt' respect others and has no morals.

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It isn't accurate to call our speech liberty "fake", but it has limitations & problems. Hysteria & passions of the times result in wrongdoing. I recall many years back when some public official was fired for using the word "niggardly". It's meaning & use were correctly synonymous with "cheap", but it sounded so racist to so many powerful black folk that his (her?) neck had to be put on the chopping block. Similarly, I see that criticizing Israel is tolerated far less than criticizing any Islamic country. There is even the special weaponized word, "anti-semite" to use against the foes of Israel, but there is no counterpart for being anti-Palestinian or anti-Muslim. Granted, this is not a legal restriction, but it is a practical restriction. With all its problems, our approach to freedom of speech looks to be about the best that humans can do.....messy & sometimes unfair, but I see no better alternative.