What is God ?

Mr_Spinkles said:

So, to sum up, all you theists believe in "something that is incomprehensible"?

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Try and explain to me what love is and what it feels like. Try and explain to me the nature of beauty. Tell me what "Faith" and "Justice" are. Now, tell me what they look like, how much they weigh, how they act, if they have a smell to them. Everyone has given their ideas as to what God is, but by virtue of the idea itself, it is representing something too large to understand.

It is not difficult to believe in something that is too big to understand. We have the universe, of which we know very little about. We also have the existence of Life. How did that happen? And Why? We don't know.

So they can believe in an incomprehensible god, so long as they understand that god's relationship to them, which they do.

Jocose said:

Try and explain to me what love is and what it feels like.

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One could write (and many have) pages upon pages on what love is and what it feels like. It is a topic that goes far beyond the "it's incomprehensible!" cop-out.

Jocose said:

Try and explain to me the nature of beauty. Tell me what "Faith" and "Justice" are. Now, tell me what they look like, how much they weigh, how they act, if they have a smell to them.

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I would begin by characterizing "beauty," "faith," and "justice" as concepts that exist within our human minds and our human cultures, concepts which have no external physical reality. I would do the same with "god".

Jocose said:

Everyone has given their ideas as to what God is, but by virtue of the idea itself, it is representing something too large to understand.

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I suppose whether the "virtue of the idea itself" represents "something too large to understand" depends on whose god we are talking about, and whether or not they believe it has thoughts, feelings, a Plan, morals, supernatural powers, communication with humans, parent gods, etc.

Jocose said:

It is not difficult to believe in something that is too big to understand.

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It is not difficult to observe something that is too big/complex to understand....but to believe in something that one does not understand (at least to some degree) is absurd. "I believe in quigglyploofs....I have no idea what the heck they are, but I know they're out there." Sounds kind of ridiculous, no? :bonk:

Jocose said:

So they can believe in an incomprehensible god, so long as they understand that god's relationship to them, which they do.

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What is god's relationship to them, and what about all the other possible gods?

Mr_Spinkles said:

So, to sum up, all you theists believe in "something that is incomprehensible"?

Come on, you guys can do better than that. You ascribe attributes to god that go beyond this definition on a regular basis....attributes like thoughts, feelings, a "Plan" for humanity, morals, super powers, omniscience, the ability to communicate with humans.....

If god really were "incomprehensible" you wouldn't be justified in saying things like "god is love" or "god wants....[X] ". How could you possibly know what god is or is not, what god does or does not want, if god were truly, completely incomprehensible?

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He is only incomprehensible in describing his appearance - in defining him. Simply, because by his very nature, he is beyond our imagination. What he asks of us, what he wants for us are messages given to us by his son, Jesus Christ.

michel said:

He is only incomprehensible in describing his appearance - in defining him. Simply, because by his very nature, he is beyond our imagination. What he asks of us, what he wants for us are messages given to us by his son, Jesus Christ.

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Well there you go, michel. Clearly, you don't believe god is totally "incomprehensible", because you believe you are able to comprehend that:
1) God can have children (er, sons, at least)
2) God can ask us for things
3) God can want things from us

Repeat - "He is only incomprehensible in describing his appearance "

michel said:

Repeat - "He is only incomprehensible in describing his appearance "

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The topic is not "What is God's appearance?" but "What is God?" The statement "He is only incomprehensible in describing his appearance" is certainly a start, but a long way from answering the topic at hand.

Mr_Spinkles said:

So, to sum up, all you theists believe in "something that is incomprehensible"?

Come on, you guys can do better than that. You ascribe attributes to god that go beyond this definition on a regular basis....attributes like thoughts, feelings, a "Plan" for humanity, morals, super powers, omniscience, the ability to communicate with humans.....

If god really were "incomprehensible" you wouldn't be justified in saying things like "god is love" or "god wants....[X] ". How could you possibly know what god is or is not, what god does or does not want, if god were truly, completely incomprehensible?

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your right, and i think it will be very rare indeed that you come across a christian who says that they know what god has planned for them

but il give oyu the main parts of the list

God Is:
omnipotent
omniscient
omnibenevolent
alpah
omega
father
son
holy spirit
innefable
omnipresent
and last but not least - funky

god is all of these and more, we dont know the end of his powers, all we know is the strat of them

god bless

Mr_Spinkles said:

The topic is not "What is God's appearance?" but "What is God?" The statement "He is only incomprehensible in describing his appearance" is certainly a start, but a long way from answering the topic at hand.

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Just out of curiousity MS. You were the only one that parted in a previous thread that I posted about What if God was to show himself. That said alot to me personally. If you were to know thru science or what have you What is God, is your stance the same? Will you seek a realtionship?

~Victor

He is only incomprehensible in describing his appearance - in defining him. Simply, because by his very nature, he is beyond our imagination. What he asks of us, what he wants for us are messages given to us by his son, Jesus Christ.if you can't accept the above, all I can add is 'anything and everything that is good in life' - though I have a sneaky suspicion you won't let me get away with that.

Well guys, let's allow the book of Job to speak:

" Can you fathom the mysteries of God?
Can you probe the limits of the Almighty?
They are higher than the heavens-what can you do ?
They are deeper than the grave-what can you know?
Their measure is longer than the earth and wider than the sea."

Job 11:7-9.

Other translations may vary.

That's how I see it, we don't what God is, and we do not know the nature of God. As humans, we cannot, in my view ever know.

There are some other points I wish to raise, but I'll think about which forum to post them in. I'm concerned especially with the beginning ( Big Bang) and the end of the universe, will God or can God defy the second law of thermodynamics, but until then.

Good wishes Amigos.

K

before doing so, you might like to look at :- http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06612a.htm

Victor said:

Just out of curiousity MS. You were the only one that parted in a previous thread that I posted about What if God was to show himself. That said alot to me personally.

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I'm sorry, my mind is a bit in disarray right now....I was the only one to do what in that previous thread?

Victor said:

If you were to know thru science or what have you What is God, is your stance the same?

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My stance on what?

Victor said:

Will you seek a realtionship?

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Oh, you mean if a supernatural being (e.g. the Abrahamic god) appeared before me, would I be interested in understanding it and communicating with it (possibly even taking orders from it)? Certainly.....who in their right mind wouldn't be? I would be just as interested if extra terrestrials came down from space, or if other gods or spirits or any sort of supernatural entities evidenced themselves. My "stance" is not that I would not find such beings uninteresting, but that I find insufficient evidence to warrant any confidence in their existence.

Kowalski said:

That's how I see it, we don't what God is, and we do not know the nature of God. As humans, we cannot, in my view ever know.

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Perhaps, then, it would be best to drop the word "god" altogether and simply acknowledge that there may or may not be one (or possibly one million) "incomprehensible somethings" in existence.

michel said:

if you can't accept the above, all I can add is 'anything and everything that is good in life' - though I have a sneaky suspicion you won't let me get away with that.

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I can accept the above. I just think that you attribute (inadvertantly?) more characteristics to your god than necessarily follow from your definition. Few people would suspect, for example, that "anything and everything that is good in life" can impregnate a virgin, or take on the appearance of a burning bush, or have thoughts or feelings or plans or powers.

I think the most important thing to establish is: do you believe in a personal or an impersonal god? In other words, does your god have morals, thoughts, feelings, self-awareness (personal), or is your god more of an unthinking, uncaring (yet still venerable) powerful "force" (impersonal)?

Oh, you mean if a supernatural being (e.g. the Abrahamic god) appeared before me, would I be interested in understanding it and communicating with it (possibly even taking orders from it)? Certainly.....who in their right mind wouldn't be? I would be just as interested if extra terrestrials came down from space, or if other gods or spirits or any sort of supernatural entities evidenced themselves. My "stance" is not that I would not find such beings uninteresting, but that I find insufficient evidence to warrant any confidence in their existence.

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Ok, I understood correctly the first time. Thanks MS.

~Victor

see now, this whole thing about not understanding what god is kinda bugs me. It's just like the blind faith issue. If you don't know what god is, what his plans for you are, and so forth, but you worship and follow him without question, isn't that somewhat foolish? If you don't understand him, kind of like what Sprinkles was saying, how do you even know that he is as the little you think you do know? How do you know he is truely good? Or that his 'plan' is for your (or anyone's but his own) best? Maybe he (or it or they) is just savvy and charismatic? To follow a path without question is to accept a fate without knowledge of it.

PART QUOTE=Mr_Spinkles] ...................."I just think that you attribute (inadvertantly?) more characteristics to your god than necessarily follow from your definition. Few people would suspect, for example, that "anything and everything that is good in life" can impregnate a virgin, or take on the appearance of a burning bush, or have thoughts or feelings or plans or powers.".........[PART QUOTE]


maybe I do, maybe I don't - I honestly don't know; maybe a Religious belief, perceived by someone who demands proof is something that that person will never be able to comprehend..........

As to your...."I think the most important thing to establish is: do you believe in a personal or an impersonal god? In other words, does your god have morals, thoughts, feelings, self-awareness (personal), or is your god more of an unthinking, uncaring (yet still venerable) powerful "force" (impersonal)?"................

a) I believe in God
b) I have no idea as to his qualities save those that he taught the world through his son, Jesus Christ.
c) I need to know no more

The same answer applies to you Dayv; I can add nothing more than that above.
It's called faith.

It may appear absurd to you, but that's your personal opinion, and it has no validity for me, just as mine has no validity to you.

I must admit that I find this "I refuse to believe in anything without it being evidenced, measured, described to the last detail' a sad trait in Life ; How can I describe to you, for example, my attachment to an old broken watch of my fathers, that I have as a keepsake ? - it's illogical, but it gives me pleasure. Multiply that a million times, and maybe you can begin to understand my relationship with God.

so you follow a god you don't understand but assume is good and just. You are truely his flock and he your shepard. To accept all of this with blind faith may seem reasonable to you, but blind faith has been proven time and again to be a shattering weakness. Just because he has protected some (and slain others) and shown to some a great benevolence (and to others a dark malice) doesn't mean that all his intentions are good. Even a shepard who protects every last sheep and keeps all from harm can in the end lead them all to the slaughter.

Well, it might sound ridiculous to you, but as far as I am concerned, it's what makes me happy. Besides, there is a rather large book to back it all up.

Dayv said:

so you follow a god you don't understand but assume is good and just. You are truely his flock and he your shepard. To accept all of this with blind faith may seem reasonable to you, but blind faith has been proven time and again to be a shattering weakness. Just because he has protected some (and slain others) and shown to some a great benevolence (and to others a dark malice) doesn't mean that all his intentions are good. Even a shepard who protects every last sheep and keeps all from harm can in the end lead them all to the slaughter.

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Dayv,

If you will consider the analogy of marriage as a type of the relationship Christians have with God.

You meet a woman (man) and there is great immediate appeal, so much so that you persue each other with great vigor, finally committing to a marriage. You don't know "everything" about that other person going into the marriage, but you know enough to commit yourself to that person, and what follows is a lifetime of love, learning about the other person, and becoming "one".

This is how Christians are taught to look at their relationship with Jesus, as they are the "Bride of Christ". We can not possibly know everthing there is to know about our creator, but we can know enough to commit our lives to Him.

Sabio

but going into a marriage (at least a healthy one), two are equal, one does not worship the other and do exactly as they command without question (again, in a healthy one), etc etc.

oh, and michel, even hitler and satan have their books, it really isn't that special.

Dayv said:

but going into a marriage (at least a healthy one), two are equal, one does not worship the other and do exactly as they command without question (again, in a healthy one), etc etc.

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In Christianity, it is taught that Jesus willingly sacrificed himself for His Bride. So the bride is obedient to a Husband who is willing to lay down His life for his wife. This does not sound like a "one sided" relationship to me.

Sabio